My phone just rang today

[jh45gun]

When you armchair presidents get done bashing Bush let me know. Yea he maybe made some mistakes who did not? Remember at one time he had the backing of the whole congress and England had the same flawed info was passed to all so if your going to blame some one there is plenty to go around. I do not care where well kill the insurgents just as long as we kill them. Better there than here! Blame the past liberal presidents who took our spies off of the streets for good intel and said that electronic spying was better. Guess not! 

[alsaqr]

"It is a sad day when educated men believe that a democracy can be established in a theocracy. It has never happened before, and it will not happen now."

This is a very good statement.  All of the Arab countries have become more fundamentalist since Desert Storm.   Prior to the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq was a secular country.  Then Saddam suddenly became a pious Islamic dictator.  i spent seven years working in three different Arab countries.  No one else in the world thinks like these folks do.  Democracy means nothing to them at all.  Democracy is a threat to the tribal  sheiks and the dictators.  When eastern Europe broke free of the communist yoke, i was working in Saudi.  i had Arab friends from many different countries.  They were shocked that 10,000 citizens of Romania went to their deaths for the right to be free.  One guy, a retired Jordanian Colonel said:   "They all died for nothing.  Democracy is not worth dying for."   

"The Shiites and Sunnis have been at each others throats for about 1,400 years.  The US is never going to change that.  For example:  You cannot reason with Madhi Shiites who believe that the Madhi, a little boy who fell into a well and died 1,000 years ago, is coming back to save them.   Mark, a friend, summed it up pretty well when he said:  "Saudi is a medieval theocracy ruled by benevolent despots."

The white house insisted on elections in Palestine and the Islamic crazies  won.   Then the white house cut off aid to Palestine.  Years ago the US insisted that Algeria hold elections.  They did and the Islamic crazies won.  Then the US backed the dictator when he refused to step down.  That lead to a long civil war.  Went to Algeria many times to train military and police folks.  Wish that you could have seen what civil war done to that country. 

"There are NO responsible folks there to win. Muslims hate each other almost as much as they hate us. They are a bunch of tribal idiots and anyone not of their tribe they hate and want to kill."

Bingo, GB. 

[Dee]

When you armchair presidents get done bashing Bush let me know. Yea he maybe made some mistakes who did not? Remember at one time he had the backing of the whole congress and England had the same flawed info was passed to all so if your going to blame some one there is plenty to go around. I do not care where well kill the insurgents just as long as we kill them. Better there than here! Blame the past liberal presidents who took our spies off of the streets for good intel and said that electronic spying was better. Guess not! 

There are two mistakes here. One that we had bad intel (and a considerable amount of lying), and went to war. But the worst mistake of all was to find out the war was not only a lie, but a mistake, and then stay with it anyway. We are not killing insurgents. We are killing Iraqis, and so are the Iraqis. Your thought of FIGHTING THEM OVER THERE RATHER THAN HERE does not wash any more. It is a blind statement with no foundational logic. That is NOT what is happening. Our troops are caught in the middle of a CIVIL WAR. Everyone seems now to understand that except for YOUR president and a few hangers on such as your self. While GW's PRIDE will not allow him to admit he is wrong, our young men are dying.

[jh45gun]

Well cutting and running is not an option even the Generals all agree on that. Further more where do you get the bulk of your info? IF it is the network news I surely would not rely on that!  While it is unfortunate that some of our men are getting killed it could be a hell of a lot worse I think they are doing a good job over there considering the issues they have to face. So you think Iraqis are not insurgents? Bush has admitted when he was wrong in the past so I do not think that is it. He knows pulling out will just make things worse. Lets face it these folks are a tough enemy Russia found that out in Afganistan look how long they were there and they never had the success we did. Our intel was faulty and England was fed the same info and not by us either they had other sources that was just as faulty. Seems between the war and the immigration problem a lot of you folks have gotten on the lets bash Bush wagon yet I wonder how well you all would do if in his shoes? Its a tough job no matter who is in the chair.

[Graybeard]

I do not believe the intel on WMD was flawed or in error the weapons were there and are now in neighboring countries where they were sent prior to our arrival and conquest of Iraq. Even when muslims hate each other they still hate us more and those weapons were just sent out of country to Syria and Iran prior to us capturing them. We know from satellite imagery of the time that entire convoys of trucks made those trips prior to us closing down the borders and those WMD were in those convoys.

Still the original mission is long since accomplished and we're serving no purpose in remaining. If we stayed one million years we'd not convert muslims to a democracy or to make them like us anymore than they do today. We're doing nothing but wasting American soldier's lives. We need to get the hell out and yet them run their country as they see fit. If the UN wants to occupy let them have it and lose lives other than US lives.

If/when they do bad things again then and only then should be again smack the hell out of them and then again get out. We do not owe them anything and should not repair their country once we destroy it. If they attack us or we otherwise feel threatened by them we should demolish them and leave the remains for someone else to clean up.

Look at them as cockroaches in your house what do you do with them? That's what we must learn to do to muslims if we're to coexist with them.

[Dee]

Well cutting and running is not an option even the Generals all agree on that.

ANYTIME A GENERAL DISAGREES HE IS REPLACED. AMAZING YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED THAT.

 Further more where do you get the bulk of your info? IF it is the network news I surely would not rely on that! 

I HAVE A COUSIN WHOM JUST GOT BACK FROM IRAQ WHERE HE LOST SEVERAL FRIENDS, AND HE "GOT OUT" OF THE ARMY BECAUSE OF WHAT IS "ACTUALLY" GOING ON OVER THERE. I HAVE A "SON" WHOM IS A SGT WITH 82ND, ON HIS SECOND TOUR "IN BAGHDAD HOUSE TO HOUSE" HE SHOULD KNOW! I HAVE A FRIEND, WHOM HIS OLDEST SON JUST GOT BACK AND "AGAIN" GOT OUT OF THE MARINES BECAUSE OF WHAT IS "ACTUALLY GOING ON OVER THERE. HE LITTLE BROTHER "JUST GOT WOUNDED LAST WEEK" THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. THEY SHOULD KNOW THEY WERE AND "ARE" THERE. WHEN IRAQIS HELP AMERICANS OVER THERE, THEY ARE KILLED BY OTHER IRAQIS.

NOW! WHERE DO YOU GET THE BULK OF YOUR NEWS INFO?

 While it is unfortunate that some of our men are getting killed it could be a hell of a lot worse

UNFORTUNATE! WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY "STUPID" STATEMENT. THE ONLY THING THAT CAN AND "IS" MAKING IT WORSE IS AIR HEADS THAT KEEP THEM IN HARMS WAY FOR "NO GOOD REASON"

I think they are doing a good job over there considering the issues they have to face.

I THINK THEY ARE DOING AN "EXCELLENT" JOB CONSIDERING THE IDIOTS TRYING TO KEEP THEM OVER THERE WHEN THE ENEMY CANNOT EVEN BE DEFINED IN A VERY DANGEROUS COMBAT ZONE, WHERE EVERYONE IS SHOOT EACH OTHER.


So you think Iraqis are not insurgents?

HELL NO! THEIR RESIDENTS OF THEIR "OWN COUNTRY" , THAT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

Bush has admitted when he was wrong in the past so I do not think that is it.

NO HE HASN'T, HE GOT ON NATIONAL TV AND STATED THAT THE MUSLIM AND THE CHRISTIAN WORSHIPED THE SAME GOD, "TWICE" YET CLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN. HE WAS WRONG ON THE STATEMENT AND HAS YET TO CORRECT IT. JUST BECAUSE HE WENT TO HARVARD DOES NOT MAKE HIM SMART. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE HERE THAT ARE EDUCATED "BEYOND" THEIR INTELIGENCE.


He knows pulling out will just make things worse.

IT'S A CIVIL WAR WITH US TROOPS CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE. WHAT COULD BE WORSE?


 Lets face it these folks are a tough enemy Russia found that out in Afganistan look how long they were there and they never had the success we did.

FIRST OF ALL WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT AFGANISTAN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IRAQ. AND ACTUALLY IT WAS THE SOVIET UNION BACK THEN, AND WHAT THEY FOUND OUT WAS THAT THE U.S. WAS SUPPLYING THE TALIBAN WITH WEAPONRY AND FUNDS TO DEFEAT THE SOVIET UNION, AND BREAK THEIR ECONOMIC BACK. NOW "WE" ARE FIGHTING THE TALIBAN!
AND RUSSIA IS RETURNING THE FAVOR IN IRAQ.


Our intel was faulty and England was fed the same info and not by us either they had other sources that was just as faulty. Seems between the war and the immigration problem a lot of you folks have gotten on the lets bash Bush wagon yet I wonder how well you all would do if in his shoes? Its a tough job no matter who is in the chair.

IT IS UTTERLY AMAZING THAT YOU "ADMIT" THE INTEL WAS FAULTY AND YET HANG ON TO THE CONCEPT OF WAR.

I WOULD GET US OUT OF IRAQ "IMMEDIATELY" AND SAY THAT I HEARD THE VOICE OF OVER 70% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WANT US OUT.

AS FAR AS IMMIGRATION I "AGAIN" WOULD "LISTEN" TO THE VOICE OF AMERICA AND SHUT DOWN OUR BORDERS, AND START IMPLEMENTING PUNISHMENT TO ANYONE WHOM HARBORED AN ILLEGAL ALIEN, WHETHER BY HOUSING OR PROVIDING JOBS FOR THEM. MANY WOULD GO HOME ON THEIR OWN. OR TO CANADA. THIS AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE.

[jh45gun]

That was a Typo I meant to say NOT faulty and forgot to put not in as I did some switching around on the post. How about all the soldiers who think we are doing good over there?  It may not be rocket science but Lets see you do the job easy to criticise when your an armchair quarterbck. And Talk about Picky Russia/ Soviet Union you still know what I meant if you want to pick apart every sentence I say for what you think is a error or mistake do not bother.

[alsaqr]

"How about all the soldiers who think we are doing good over there?"

Very few soldiers want to believe that they are fighting for is a useless cause.  As a soldier,  i thought that we were doing good in Viet Nam.   How wrong i was. 

[jh45gun]

"How about all the soldiers who think we are doing good over there?"

Very few soldiers want to believe that they are fighting for is a useless cause.  As a soldier,  i thought that we were doing good in Viet Nam.   How wrong i was. 

That maybe so but then this is not Nam either I do not know why every one wants to compare the two wars as they are entirely different.

[Dee]

"How about all the soldiers who think we are doing good over there?"

Very few soldiers want to believe that they are fighting for is a useless cause.  As a soldier,  i thought that we were doing good in Viet Nam.   How wrong i was. 

That maybe so but then this is not Nam either I do not know why every one wants to compare the two wars as they are entirely different.

No their not. Both have been recognized as fought under false pretenses. Both have no way of defining whom is enemy and whom is not, as they are the Iraqi people on BOTH SIDES. And the Iraqi does not want our democracy and SAYS SO. It's just that people like GW and yourself are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, and very few people are buying it any more. The army is shrinking at a phenomenal rate, and enlistments at a all time low. There will always be a few inside or outside of the military that feel differently, but the ones on Fox, are usually hand picked. Watch some of the other channels, and you hear a different story.
It is a civil war, that can only be settled by the waring factions not by U.S. Our troops are caught in the middle of something they cannot control. I would once again invite those whom support the war to JOIN IN THE FIGHTING. The enlistment age has been bumped up to 42yoa. So support YOUR cause.

[jh45gun]

Well I tell you what as much as I respect the Military many of the kids going into the service today are not the same breed our dads and grandfathers were. Some are and will join to fight anyway. Since there is not a draft you cannot compare the numbers of troops to this war and wars past because of the difference of a all volunteer military and a conscripted one. Yoiur comments about folks dropping out of the military I can see that and why not many of them never wanted to fight in the first place they joined up for free school and all the bennies and now they have to earn it. There were all kinds of parents and mothers and kids upset that they had to go to war when this first started. On the other hand some rejoin so they are not all like that but some are. Further more after 911 Bush said this was going to be a long and unpopular fight against the terrorist and we would fight them where ever we found them. So he was up front on that and Saddam and his kids and others were terrorist no doubt about that as are manny of his followers. Since Bush JR decided to finish what Daddy should have might make a arguement for some I don't have an issue with that. For the record I do not watch Fox but I do know that the 3 major networks are liberal lefties of the worst stripe and cannot wait to paint a bad picture. CBS proved that time and time again until they fired a few of the worst ones that lied to the public. If Bush is so wrong and so bad how did he get elected AGAIN! I am not saying the man is perfect but then who is? How about Tony Blair and all the other countries that lended their support at first were they all wrong too? Seems to me this forum has wound up to be a witch hunt as usual your pissed about the war pissed about the mexicans and then when Bush tries to do something for the sportsmen of this country he is accused of aiding a UN plot.  LOL 


You know I am not that happy about US men and women getting killed nor am I happy at all about the immigration problem but you know what there is plenty of blame to go around!!!!!!!!!!! Bush SR should have taken care of Saddam the first time around and Slick Willie should have finished it which of course he did not. Immigration has been a problem for years so why did not some of the past presidents take care of the issue? Plenty of blame to go around besides Bush. Congress for starters for both issues as past presidents.

[Dee]

I think Bush Sr. should have let Kuwait settle their own business with Saddam. They don't have any soldiers in this fight, and as far as Klinton, he is, and was, a Arkansas Buffoon.  So what is your point there. And your right about one thing. I am pissed about a man I voted for TWICE, not admitting that HE made a mistake, and his PRIDE will not let him admit it. REGARDLESS of what anyone thinks the war in Iraq is unwinnable, and most of the nation now realizes that. There is an ENDLESS SUPPLY of Muslims to take the place of everyone shot in Iraq. The Iraqis HATE US, they make no bones about it, and they are NOT WORTH SAVING at the expense of American lives. The WORLD IS AGAINST us on the Iraq issue, yet some as you still pound the war drum but, won't fight in it yourself. If we pulled out of Iraq TODAY we would not notice the CIVIL WAR that has raged there for centuries. It was none of our business then and it is none of our business NOW, of how other countries choose to run their governments. All of our so called allies have either already baled, on us, or are in the process of baling. That should tell us something. And as I said. YOUR DAMMED RIGHT I'M PISSED WHEN GOOD MEN ARE DYING FOR A GOVERNMENTS MEDDLING WHERE IT SHOULDN"T BE MEDDLING.
AS FOR THE MEXS, IF YOU AREN"T PISSED YOU SHOULD BE. AS FOR A WITCH HUNT? I BELIEVE WE FOUND THE WITCH. WE JUST NEED A STAKE TO ATTACH HIM TO, AND THE INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO LIGHT THE FIRE.
You can get on a horse and run him to death because he doesn't know when to stop. He just goes till it kills him. We as people should know when to stop. We are not livestock.

[jh45gun]

Like I said plenty of blame to go around and lets face it Bush got handed a pile of crap when we wound up with 911 which should have never happend if our intel on the ground was not let go and using electronic spying instead. you can blame the liberals in this country for that.  I also have said all along that Bush is the wrong one to fight the immigration issue because he has a Mexican Sister in Law that pretty much makes it a conflict of interest no matter how ya look at it. Furthermore like I also stated the immigration issue had been a pain in the posterior long before Bush got into office this should have been settled years ago. It seems like more of a problem now as the floodgates have opened but we have had this issue for a long time.

[alsaqr]

"Yoiur comments about folks dropping out of the military I can see that and why not many of them never wanted to fight in the first place they joined up for free school and all the bennies and now they have to earn it." 

On the one hand you talk of Bush's holy war and then bad mouth the troops who are fighting it.  It does not matter why troops signed up in the first place.  The fact is that they are off in Iraq fighting in a war on the cheap of Bush's making.  When they get horribly wounded the Bush ran military wants to give a guy or girl who lost a leg a 20% disability rating.  Never mind that  a person who lost a leg in other wars got 60%. 

The war in Iraq is distracting US efforts from the real war on terror in Afghanistan.  Afghanistan is much larger than Iraq and we have 25,000 troops there.  We are not making any military progress in Afghanistan.  The Taliban is back with a vengeance.   

There are many similarities between the Viet Nam and Iraq wars.  In both cases the US went to war based on distortions, exaggerations and outright lies.  In both cases the hawks "claimed that we are fighting them over there so we do not have to fight them here."   We were told that the whole eastern part of the globe would become communist if we did not fight them in Viet Nam.  We are being told the same crap about Iraq.   Both wars were the result of huge, out of control presidential egos.  In the case of Viet Nam, then along came Nixon whose ego was also bigger than the world.   

i was working with the military in Saudi for years before Kuwait was invaded until well after the US troops left.  The troops who fought Desert Storm were the best Army that the US ever had.  Before the war was over Big Daddy Bush and the congress was cutting the guts out of the US military and this continued through the Klinton years.     

Ronald Reagan and Big Daddy Bush had the opportunity to correct the deficiencies in the US intelligence program and did not do so.  Neither did Klinton.  The information was there for all to see but so called US "intelligence agencies" did not have Arab language specialists to read the stuff. 

George Bush and the neo-cons in the defense department mounted an invasion on the cheap contrary to the advice of senior general officers.  After over four years we are still fighting a war on the cheap in Iraq.  Furthermore, the troops are not allowed the leeway to do their job.  Troops are being killed because they cannot shoot back:  The war is micromanaged from the Pentagon and the white house.   The US ambassador to Iraq is nothing more than a political commissar who insists that the war in Iraq be fought in a PC manner. 

PS:  After fighting them over there so we do not have to fight them here, guess what?  The dastardly Chinese communists are over here dominating our economy and money.  The US has borrowed 900 million dollars from China.  This leaves us very vulnerable to blackmail in our foreign policy.  Those of you who rail about socialism in the US need to think about that. 

Do not hail Wya while disparaging US troops.


Retired US Army M/Sgt.

 

[jh45gun]

I am not disparaging the troops but I know what I see and I have seen on the local news Mothers and Dads and Soldiers that were NG troops that werre pissed when we got into this war because they signed up for peace time service for the schooling ect and now had to go fight. That was my comments and I will stand by them as I have said all along when you sign on the dotted line you should expect that you may have to fight so do not piss and moan about at after the fact! May not be that way all over but I sure saw it in the media from NE MINN. I live in WI but we get MN news. TV Radio and Paper. The Letters to the Editor were full of it too but then what do ya expect the whole darn area is a hotbed of liberalism. On the other hand their are NG and AG troops out of here that have done several tours and were proud to do so. But there were some that made the comments and that is what I was talking about I should have made it clear that I was not talking about the military in general but a  smaller  percentage that were bitching.

[alsaqr]

No one ever saw any real urinating and whining by the National Guard unless they were on an active Army base in 1961 when Kennedy nationalized parts of the National Guard for the Berlin crisis.  Most of these units were from the NE US.  Some of the combat units were pretty good but the support units were really sorry.  There was the 310 MP battalion from NYC.  Many of these guys were cops, most of them were caterwauling whiners.  They went on a hunger strike at Ft. Bragg.  The Bragg CG sent them to the field and put Regular Army MPs on the roads so the whiners could not make it to the fast food places in Fayetteville and Spring Lake.  This was publicized in the local papers and on the TV news.  The USMC from Camp Lejeune sent a truck load of C rations to FT. Bragg for the 310th. 

[Dee]

The issue I don't believe is about having to fight, as part of the job. The issue is what they are fighting FOR!

[alsaqr]

"The issue is what they are fighting FOR!"


Exactly:  What they are fighting for ain't worth it.