Author Topic: 308 reduced load vs 243 (Read 8289 times)

montveil · « **on:** August 13, 2007, 05:48:04 AM »

A woman friend of mine wants to get into deer hunting --eastern whitetails under 300 yards.

aI was considering a 243 vs a 308 with reduced loads to possibly full loads in the future???

The recoil may be a problem initially that is why I was considering the 243

any suggestions

thanks

beemanbeme · « **Reply #1 on:** August 13, 2007, 06:13:34 AM »

Why not split the difference and get a 7-08 or even a .260. The 7-08 is arguably the best deer rifle walking. Low recoil, maximum effectiveness. Several folks have posted that their pre-teen kids have used them well. The .260 is a real sleeper. Offers a much better payload --120 & 140gr-- than the .243 with no perceived increase in recoil. Its only problem is its niche between the .243 and the 7-08 is perhaps too narrow for it to thrive so in a few years it may be a reloading deal only.

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 13, 2007, 07:12:23 AM »

The 7mm-08 would be a fine choice, but if I had to pick between the .308 and the .243, it would be the .308. I think that the .243 is marginal for whitetails, especially for a starter gun. A lot of people say to start a newbie out with a .243. I disagree with that 100% You really don't have a lot of room for error with the light bullets. A skilled marksman, sure, then I think the .243 is good. Its all about bullet placement.

I think you would be a lot better served with a .308 with reduced loads.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 13, 2007, 12:21:01 PM »

Another .308 vote. Check out Remington's Managed Recoil loads if you don't handload.

Dave in WV · « **Reply #4 on:** August 13, 2007, 02:06:00 PM »

I have a Remington 7600 pump chambered for the 7-08. It kicks harder than most would think. It's the nature of the pumps. That said the most important thing she needs is a rifle that fits her. I have a .243 and it's a great cartridge but it will always be a .243. A downloaded .308 can be more with full power ammo. If you reload, Hodgdon has reduced loads for several cartridges listed online.

Lone Star · « **Reply #5 on:** August 13, 2007, 03:36:34 PM »

Quote

I have a Remington 7600 pump chambered for the 7-08. It kicks harder than most would think. It's the nature of the pumps...

Strange, my M7600 in .338-06 doesn't kick any harder than I'd expect. It is true that the M7600s are a bit lighter than full sized bolt rifles, but their stock dimensions are not much different than most modern bolt rifles....

Another vote for the .308, although I've loved my .260s. A handloaded .308" 125-grain Nosler at ca. 2500 fps using 38 grains of IMR4895 is mild in both recoil and report, and accurate - yet it will kill better than a 100-grain .243 bullet - IME anyway. Report can be as frightening as recoil to many, and the above load is much quieter than a .243.

.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #6 on:** August 13, 2007, 03:47:25 PM »

Quote from: jasonprox700 on August 13, 2007, 07:12:23 AM

Its all about bullet placement.

It's all about bullet placement if your shootin 'em with a 243 or with a 338 magnum. If you let the air out of the lungs with a 243, they won't go far. Same with a 308. If you gut shoot 'em with either bullet, it can be a long day...into the night...into the next day...and you may never recover the deer.

It's always about bullet placement.

Go with the 243. She won't flinch when she shoots it so she will have a much better chance of hitting the heart\lung target and downing the animal. If she's afraid of the gun....bad things will happen.

MHO

Dave

Siskiyou · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2007, 05:00:45 PM »

I have a .243 and consider it a great varmint rifle but feel I have better a better deer rifle. I would offer a grand kid a .308 before I would pull the .243 out for deer hunting. For years the slightly less powerful .300 Savage took a fair number of deer in my father’s family. I have seen on numerous occasions a family member down a deer with the .300 Savage. The round is so respected in our family that a brother who has a number of rifles jumped at the chance recently to add a .300 Savage rifle to the household for a son. His original intent was to give the kid his 7mm-08. (Was this an excuse to buy another rifle? DAH!)

When comparing the 100-grain .243 Express load to the 125 grain .308 Managed Recoil load and the 150-grain Express load for the .308 the .243 looks good. One of my hunting partners former wife(s) successfully took a number of deer with a 6mm Remington. We were impressed with the effectiveness of the 100-grain Remington Express C-L bullet.

Cartridge InformationIndex Number   Cartridge Type   Weight (grs.)   Bullet Style   Primer No.   Ballistic Coefficient
R243W3   Remington® Express®   100   Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt®   9 1/2   0.356
RL3081   Remington® Managed Recoil®   125   Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt®   9 1/2   0.314
R308W1   Remington® Express®   150   Pointed Soft Point Core-Lokt®   9 1/2   0.314

Velocity (ft/sec)Cartridge Type   Bullet   Muzzle   100   200   300   400   500
Remington® Express®   100 PSP CL   2960   2697   2449   2215   1993   1786
Remington® Managed Recoil®   125 PSP CL   2660   2348   2057   1788   1546   1338
Remington® Express®   150 PSP CL   2820   2533   2263   2009   1774   1560

Energy (ft-lbs)Cartridge Type   Bullet   Muzzle   100   200   300   400   500
Remington® Express®   100 PSP CL   1945   1615   1332   1089   882   708
Remington® Managed Recoil®   125 PSP CL   1964   1529   1174   887   663   497
Remington® Express®   150 PSP CL   2648   2137   1705   1344   1048   810

Short-Range TrajectoryCartridge Type   Bullet   50   100   150   200   250   300
Remington® Express®   100 PSP CL   0.1   0.7   zero   -2.0   -5.4   -10.4
Remington® Managed Recoil®   125 PSP CL   -0.1   zero   -1.5   -4.9   -10.4   -18.3
Remington® Express®   150 PSP CL   0.0   zero   -1.2   -3.9   -8.4   -14.7

Long-Range TrajectoryCartridge Type   Bullet   100   150   200   250   300   400   500
Remington® Express®   100 PSP CL   1.6   1.5   zero   -2.9   -7.5   -22.1   -45.4
Remington® Managed Recoil®   125 PSP CL   1.1   zero   -2.7   -7.4   -14.3   -35.8   -70.3
Remington® Express®   150 PSP CL   2.0   1.7   zero   -3.4   -8.8   -26.2   -54.8

I realize that many deer are taken with the .243 Winchester, but in this case I will go with the larger entrance hole. Even a deer that has take a fatal bullet behind the shoulder may run some distance. A good blood trail may make the difference in recovery of the game.

The .308 offers a lot of options when it comes to bullet weight, and the hunter can adjust up and down the weight scale. The .243 scale is more limited.

When checking the recoil I found that the Managed Recoil load and the 100 grain .243 load both produce 11-pounds of recoil. A full power 150-grain bullet in the .308 produces approximately 16-pounds of recoil. If she has not started out with a .22 rifle I recommend that route. That way she could have a positive experience, and learn some gun handling skills. When she graduates to the centerfire the loud bang is less scary.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2007, 06:26:09 PM »

.257 Roberts
.25-06
.260 Rem
7mm-08

roper · « **Reply #9 on:** August 13, 2007, 10:05:53 PM »

My wife started with a 243 back in the 60's and 70's then moved up to a 270 now she has laid claim to my 280AI. I would do a 243 over a reduced loaded 308 besides bullet placement fit is pretty important. That 243 took 12 California blacktail deer.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #10 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:08:10 PM »

I would not handicap any new hunter with a .243 nor a .410 shotgun. Chant "it's shot placement that counts" all you want but neither round offers any leeway for error.

BigJakeJ1s · « **Reply #11 on:** August 14, 2007, 04:57:04 PM »

My 10 year old son used Remington managed recoil ammo in my 270win on his first hunt last year. It worked well, with a lung/gut (quartering toward us) shot that put the buck down inside 15 yards from where he was shot. Recoil for that round is said to be same as 243, but I had the 270 rifle already; in fact it's the same rifle that I shot my first buck with when I was just a couple of years older than he is. I put a synthetic stock on it, and cut that down to fit him. My son got a nicer buck (8 pt) with it though. That's now my favorite photo on my desk at work.

Andy

flintlock · « **Reply #12 on:** August 14, 2007, 05:25:54 PM »

I've killed a few eastern whitetails with a .243, about 150 to be exact...It's the only center fire rifle I own, bought it in 1980...
I have had exactly 2 run farther than 100 yards, never lost one and most fell in their tracks or within 30-60 yards if lung shot.
I have never hit one in the guts or the hams, so I can't give any comments on that...

A deer hit in the lungs with a .243 and proper bullet will run no farther than one hit in the lungs with a .270 and proper bullet...

Those of you that have problems killing deer with a .243, what kind of bullets are you using??? Where the heck are you hitting them?

Or have you just heard about some guy that knew some guy that was dating a girl who's daddy's uncle's cousin's sister's wife's brother had
a problem???

I see this come up from time to time, but have never heard of a deer hit properly in the lungs with a .243 that went very far...

Mattkc · « **Reply #13 on:** August 14, 2007, 07:13:17 PM »

Flintlock you got to realize your eastern deer are so sick and weak your 243 is finishing them off a day early. In the rest of the country 243 rounds bounce off deer. I have the same thing happen with the nearly dead deer in Missouri that I kill with my 357. In the rest of the country 357's are only good for ground hogs.

Montveil if you want to find out if a certain caliber is effective don't ask folks on web their opinions as they are worthless. Ask specific questions about a specific caliber from people who use that caliber for what you want to hunt. With the right bullet and load my 357 Marlin 1894 and my Ruger GP 100 kill deer just as dead as my 308. If you do a search you will find guys like Flintlock who have killed a lot of deer with the 243. PM these guys and pick their brains then you can make an informed decision. The worst thing you can do is get a 243 vs 308 or 308 vs 30-06 from hell thread going you wont learn anything.

I can't tell you squat about about the 243 as I don't shoot one so it doesn't make sense for me to give an opinion. But I know I guy that knows a guy and he said...............

Don Fischer · « **Reply #14 on:** August 15, 2007, 04:42:16 AM »

In between the 308 and the 243 on on the same case is the 260 Rem and the 7mm-08. Nobody ever questions their effectiveness on deer and every body that ever shot them suggest them for mild recoil.

Syncerus · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2007, 05:26:44 AM »

Another vote for the .308 with managed recoil ammo.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2007, 06:55:35 AM »

Yup, all the deer hunters held a secret meeting and voted to say the .243 was a marginal, at best, deer rifle just so we'd have something to talk about on the internet.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:20:43 AM »

I was at that meeting. I was told to keep "talking up" the Nosler 95 grain balistic tip just to drive 'em nutz.

Funny thing is (not as in Ha Ha funny) that in rifle season, if I am going after a buck (which means I didn't arrow one in bow season $:-\$ ) I use 2 different guns. On nice pleasant days (or days that are not raining) I use my Stevens 200 in .308 with the Nikon Buckmasters scope. On days when it's raining I use my Encore .243 with the Leupold Rifleman Scope with the optional Rainguard screw on lens's.

So....does that make me indecisive? Nah....just means I'll bag one with either round. They will both bring 'em down.....as long as the shot is put in the right place.

Dave

Siskiyou · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2007, 09:19:29 AM »

Dave,

You are one of those unfortunate people who are caught in the trap of owning more then one firearm adequate to take a deer. An “old” high school buddy has a number of deer rifles and when it comes to grabbing the rifle for the days hunt it is the same 30-06 he has carried for years. He normally has two deer tags and does not switch to another rifle after taking his first deer.

There are those who have two or more rifle and would like to use them all. At times they lose more sleep then necessary. The rifles maybe of the same caliber but with a different action. I like to carry my old M760 in .270 when hunting heavy cover. It is fast into action, and a follow-up shot comes quickly. I like my bolt action .270 when I know that the opportunity for that tough three hundred plus yard shot maybe in the making. Or if the game is antelope and not deer.

Or there is the guy who inherited a M70 Winchester Featherweight in .243. He was not satisfied with it as a deer round and purchased a .308 Winchester barrel for it. It has now become a switch barrel rifle.

Should montveil buy one each?

flintlock · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2007, 09:53:28 AM »

Just so ya'll don't think I only shoot pea shooters...Here's my other deer rifle....

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/nchawkeye/Im000146.jpg

Davemuzz · « **Reply #20 on:** August 15, 2007, 10:00:52 AM »

A Frontstuffer, with a sidelock that uses a rock! Nice curley wood! I'll bet it even shoots straight!

Nice Pic!

Dave

LEO · « **Reply #21 on:** August 15, 2007, 11:35:33 AM »

If recoil is the issue, I highly recommend the Simms recoil pads. You really have to try one to appreciate how effective they are. No I don't get a commission on them but I am a big fan. I am not recoil sensitive but I bought a rifle that already had one installed and the difference was amazing when compared with an identical rifle without one. As far as reduced load 308s go, I have never shot a deer with a reduced load 308 but I have shot a bunch with full load 308s and it does great. I have also shot a bunch with a 30-30 which would I assume would be about the equivelant of a reduced 308 and it worked great. I have also shot a few deer with a 243 and 100 grain core-lokts and it did great. Shot placement is what kills deer as long as the cartridge is powerful enough and the bullet well enough constructed to penetrate to the vitals from the given shot angle. The bottom line is if the shooter is never going to hunt anything larger than a deer either one will do fine. If the shooter ever wants to hunt larger animals, I would recommend the 308 because the 243 is at its potential where the 308 can be used with full loads.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #22 on:** August 15, 2007, 11:53:27 AM »

I too, have killed better than 50 deer with a .243.....heck, I didn't know it was marginal until I started reading the Internet forums.....hope those deer never find out........

I bought my wife a tang safety ruger 77 in .243 many years ago......she shoots it very, very well.......

For a one gun does it all, east of the Mississippi, then the .243 has to be the one........wait....moose are east of the Mississippi ain't they? Okay, it might be marginal for moose.......

Dave in WV · « **Reply #23 on:** August 15, 2007, 12:22:17 PM »

Lone Star, my son bought my 7600 for me. He zeroed a 7-08 bolt rifle for a friend and liked it's mild recoil. When he shot my 7600 he was surprised by the amount of felt recoil. My 7600 doesn't kick like an '06 but you wouldn't want to shoot it all day wearing a t-shirt.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #24 on:** August 15, 2007, 06:10:04 PM »

VC,

I too, have killed better than 50 deer with a .243.....heck, I didn't know it was marginal until I started reading the Internet forums....

That 243 you have is a POS. I,ll PM you my FFL and you can ship it directly to him. I know your worried about using it in the future, so I'll just take that worry right off your shoulders.

Glad I could help.

Dave

beemanbeme · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2007, 05:42:20 AM »

My my, touchy.

Guy Pike · « **Reply #26 on:** August 16, 2007, 01:27:27 PM »

The 6.5x55 Swede seems to be adequate for some rather large game. My Husqvarna 1640 recoils about the same as my CZ 550 in .243 Win. I can't say that anything beats proper shot placement though!

Davemuzz · « **Reply #27 on:** August 16, 2007, 05:24:04 PM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 16, 2007, 05:42:20 AM

My my, touchy.

Please re-read. It's called sarcasm. It was a sarcastic remark. I thought his comment was great, but now that his gun is worthless (as he has just found out by reading forum post) I just thought I could help him out...you know....be a buddy...a good friend.

Dave

Davemuzz · « **Reply #28 on:** August 16, 2007, 05:28:02 PM »

Quote from: Guy Pike on August 16, 2007, 01:27:27 PM

The 6.5x55 Swede seems to be adequate for some rather large game. My Husqvarna 1640 recoils about the same as my CZ 550 in .243 Win. I can't say that anything beats proper shot placement though!

Guy,

Now there is an excellent suggestion that no one else has mentioned. The Swede is a deadly round and if the deer is giving you a quartering away shot, the 6.5 will take out the vital's with no problem. Recoil is minimal and accuracy is lazer.

This would be one for a reloader, but even a factory load buyer could find adequate ammo.

Great suggestion!!

Dave

Bigfoot · « **Reply #29 on:** September 20, 2007, 05:58:35 PM »

Get the 308 and reload. That way it can also be used for hogs and elk.

For a youth load, if what's needed here is a light for caliber bullet that expands fast with a medium sized mushroom for good penetration then the 130 TSX is made to order. In fact it'll outpenetrate most 165s and work fine on hogs and big deer. If you want even better expansion for lower velocities wait for the tipped version.

Or you can go old school and use 150 gr 30-30 bullets at around 2000 fps.