308 reduced load vs 243

[Mckie Hollow]

The 308 is Americas standard. Hot Dogs ,Apple Pie, Maple Syrup, Sausage Gravy. Load it up - Load it down, you will not beat it. Some say that it is boring. But Nothing, & I Mean nothing, has ever been better for its intended purpose.

[Swampman]

Get the .308, it's a great round.

[banen]

I vote 308 if you have the choice,  the 243 is somewhat marginal.  When I was a scrawney 120 lb 14 yr old my first rifle was  a 308.  I did fine with it then and it is still my favorite deer caliber now.  If you teach her to shoot the right way by gradually exposing her to recoil in small steps then she will be fine.  It isn't like a full bore 308 load is a real bruiser.   Don't just give her "Her" rifle and make her learn to shoot it.  Use what ever guns you have access to to gradually work up the recoil chain.  Light shotgun loads are even a good mid step, they won't teach marksmanship but they will help her get use to that little jolt that the rest of us have come to actually like in a strange way.   

[billy_56081]

I'd say the 243 is only marginal if you are a marginal shooter! Bullet placement rules.

[Spanky]

Here's a novel idea.  Why don't you somehow gain access to both and have THE INTENDED SHOOTER decide which one is preferable.

Spanky

[superdown]

The reduced load 308 if not mistaken has the ballistics of a 30-30 so that would be like comparing a 243 to a 30-30 i would personally take a 30-30 any day of the week over a 243 . besides whats with everyone suggesting a 7mm-08 as soon as a 308 based round is mentioned. Besides the 7mm-08 has NO advantages over the 308win recoil is NOT noticeably different between the two their is only disadvantages with 7mm-08 . Just to name few 1. smaller bullet 2. less factory ammo 3.less firearms chambered in that round 4.no low recoil ammo option 5. smaller bullet weight range.                                                                                                                                                                                                                       superdown

[Davemuzz]

The reduced load 308 if not mistaken has the ballistics of a 30-30 so that would be like comparing a 243 to a 30-30 i would personally take a 30-30 any day of the week over a 243 . besides whats with everyone suggesting a 7mm-08 as soon as a 308 based round is mentioned. Besides the 7mm-08 has NO advantages over the 308win recoil is NOT noticeably different between the two their is only disadvantages with 7mm-08 . Just to name few 1. smaller bullet 2. less factory ammo 3.less firearms chambered in that round 4.no low recoil ammo option 5. smaller bullet weight range.                                                                                                                                                                                                                       superdown

So, what he is saying makes sense. Get the .308. Use the reduced loads for now. Later on, when the time is right, you can move "up to" regular .308 loads. You can't do that with the .243. As far as the 7mm-08...like  the Soprano's say..."forget about it."

Dave

[flintlock]

In the past 5-6 years I have had 6 hunting buddies convert to a .243...They had all shot various rounds before, some had needled me on using a .243.....Funny though, they all flinched, as do about 60% of the deer hunters out there....After helping me clean a few dozen deer, they all changed their mind...

The only thing "marginal" was their education and experience on actually using a .243 for deer....None have complained about what a properly placed .243 bullet will do......

Hit in the lungs, deer don't travel any further than hit with a .270.

[jasonprox700]

Hypothetical situation:

The young hunter, or old, wise hunter is sitting in his/her stand.  A deer that they decide to shoot stops broadside in front of them at 200 yards.  The hunter lines up behind the shoulder in the vitals (heart, lung, whatever).  Hunter shoots.  Let's just say this particular bullet that is shot from this gun happens to be a flyer.  It hits the deer square in the shoulder. 

Now which would you rather have, a 100 grain or 150 grain bullet?  Chances are, it probably won't make any difference.  But I think that a person should run this situation through their mind when considering which bullet design or caliber to use for a particular species. 

Don't get me wrong, I think that the .243 is a great round.  It has killed thousands of deer, maybe more.  A friend of my dads has used it his entire life and never lost a deer.  He is and exceptional marksman and very respectable hunter.  He swears by it.  I want to eventually get one for plinking, and maybe a little deer hunting too. 

But, given a choice, I would take the .308 over the .243 just to have that little extra margin of safety.  That is just me though.  I have no problem with somebody using a .243 for deer, heck, I've even taken some does with my .22-250.  I had full confidence in my skills and I was very picky about the shot placement.

In a nut shell, it all boils down to what you like, what you have confidence in, and what fits you or the shooter.

That is just my two cents.  I'm not trying to start anything or add more fuel to the fire, that's just how I feel. 

[flintlock]

Hypothetical...Heck, I have put many a 100 gr and a few 85 gr bullets through a whitetails shoulder, from 30-300 yards...In the swamps I hunt in eastern NC, I prefer a shoulder shot, when hunting our power line, with a cut over on one side and a swamp on the other, I take a shoulder shot, when hunting a cut corn field and the deer have made it 50 yards out in the field, I'll take a lung shot...I have killed at least 150 with a .243...The deer will drop in its tracks...

We are not talking about a 22-250 and a 55gr varmint bullet, and we aren't talking about elk....Go out and buy a .243, shoot a few dozen deer with it, then form an opinion...

[jasonprox700]

The reason I made that statement is because a buck I shot about 8 or 9 years had a bullet stuck in its shoulder.  I pulled it out and put a caliper on it.  Guess what.  It was from a .243 or 6mm. 

Flintlock, I'm not bashing the .243 like you seem think I am along with other people who have responded this forum.  I am giving my opinion!  My opinion is neither right or wrong.  Your right, a .243 will drop them, so will a .50 BMG, and a .22 Long Rifle.

The reason I hunt with a .280 and not a .243, is because I have full confidence in it, not the .243. 

[~Ace~]

Bullets have come a Long ways in the last 20 years, and especially in the last 5.
Affordable Optics have come a long way
Out of the box Accurate rifles have come a long way

With a Accurate rifle, and Todays Bullets, the .243 is a fine deer caliber for does and med size Bucks. I'd consider it marginal only on a Big Mature buck 200 lbs and above. The Muzzle Blast is often more than some larger calibers, so proper Hearing protection from the start is a Must.

The .308 is a good deer caliber across the board, but the additional recoil make it harder to Learn to shoot and less enjoyable.

Shot Placement IS Everything ! More deer are Lost every year to Magnum calibers the people simply can't shoot than smaller more apropriate calibers for the prey. I have witnessed it Many times on hogs.

If your friend is not looking for a Big Trophy buck, but rather a good eating size deer the .243 will be Plenty. If she is larger framed or Corn fed, she may handle the .308 just fine.  I would sugest Lots of shooting with a .22 for learning the proper mechanics (breathing, trigger pull etc. ) inbetween shooting the centerfire. Aim Small Shoot Small, and reactive Targets (Eggs ) ) make it even more fun to learn. ~Ace~

[Coyote Hunter]

The reduced load 308 if not mistaken has the ballistics of a 30-30 so that would be like comparing a 243 to a 30-30 i would personally take a 30-30 any day of the week over a 243 .

For young hunters I often recommend a .30-30 over a .243 Win as I like the larger, heavier bullets and the .30-30 does just fine out to 200 yards with a 170g bullet.  I’ve seen too much game wounded with .243’s to like them except with good bullets (read “NOT standard cup-and-core”).

besides whats with everyone suggesting a 7mm-08 as soon as a 308 based round is mentioned. Besides the 7mm-08 has NO advantages over the 308win recoil is NOT noticeably different between the two their is only disadvantages with 7mm-08 . Just to name few 1. smaller bullet 2. less factory ammo 3.less firearms chambered in that round 4.no low recoil ammo option 5. smaller bullet weight range.                                                                                                                                                                                                                       superdown

The reason a 7mm-08 gets mentioned so often is that the 7mm-08 is a great cartridge.  Shooting bullets of similar sectional density the 7mm-08 typically has less recoil than a .308 Win with a flatter trajectory. Sectional densities of the 7mm Rem Mag 140g bullets are on par with 165g bullets in a .308.  The 7mm-08 is very similar to the 7x57 and both are time tested cartridges.   No reduced recoil factory loads?  Why bother when the a standard factory 120g load at over 3000fps (Nosler) generates the same recoil as a .30-30 (about 13 pounds in a 8.3 pound rifle and scope)?

That the 7mm-08 has less factory ammo options wouldn’t concern me because there are excellent loads available from Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady and Nosler, to mention a few.  Most ammo dealers will have 7mm-08 ammo on hand as it is a popular cartridge.

Fewer rifles chambered in the 7mm-08 is also not a concern as long as the one you want is chambered in it.  Remington and Ruger both chamber for the 7mm-08 as do quite a few others.

Smaller bullets is not an issue either, especially when you are comparing it to a .243 Win, in which case the bullets are heavier.  The 7mm-08 will handle bullets from 100g to 175g.  A 120g TSX can easily be pushed over 3100fps and the 175g TSX bullets can do better than 2600fps.  If you cant get the job done with one of those loads or something in-between then a .308 Win probably isn’t the answer.

[superdown]

I personally have nothing against the 7mm-08 its a fine round but for me when i look at all the contributing factors the 308 just make more sense . especially for new hunters that are concerned with the commonality of their ammo and for those that don't reload the cost of ammo. Come to think of it the 7mm-08 isn't on anyone's top ten most popular list . PLEASE feel free to correct me on this but i could not find any info to dispute it . superdown

[Coyote Hunter]

superdown –

There is no 7mm-08 in my safe but there is a .308 Win.  I like both cartridges, however.

For those that do not reload, there are far more ammo options for the .308 Win.  Is there BETTER ammo available for the .308 Win than the 7mm-08?  Not in my opinion, as Federal loads the TSX, AccuBond and Partition for the 7mm-08.  Is there CHEAPER ammo available for the .308 Win?  Yes, in mil-surp, and that’s a compelling factor for someone that has a limited budget, doesn’t reload, and wants to shoot a lot.  Any difference in the cost of hunting ammo is marginal one way or another and for the reloader there is probably no significant difference. 

The 7mm-08 may not be in the top 10 (I honestly don’t know) but it is fairly popular and ammo is plentiful.  Further, it’s a cartridge that will continue to be supported and, I think, is growing in popularity.  It is certainly one of the more popular low-recoil hunting cartridges and no one needs to worry that if they buy a 7mm-08 they won’t be able to buy ammo in the future.

Regardless, the 7mm-08 and .308 Win are both excellent cartridges and I think we can agree they are both superior to a .243 Win for most big game applications.

[superdown]

I definitely agree with you i don't like to see any cartridge go by the way side that just means less things to explore in the world of shooting / reloading and we cant have that now can we. Justin

[banen]

Not that the original post had anything to do with the 7-08 but it just can't have that perceptible of difference in recoil compared to the 308.  I will admit I have never shot a 7-08 but I am a 308 guy.  Few people argue that the 308 is a heavy recoiling round, especially in a standard weight gun.  I bet a newbie wouldn't even notice the difference.    My vote still goes to the 308, 7-08 second, and 243 a distant third.  If you were looking for another option the 257 Roberts would be a good one.   

[Coyote Hunter]

Banen –

Here’s a few comparisons showing recoil, bullet characteristics, load, load source, zero/MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) for 3” max rise and drop, and drop and energy data for 400 yards:


7mm-08
11.9fp recoil, Barnes 100g X, 3374fps, SD=.177, BC=.343, 47.0g W748 (Barnes #3) 274/321, -11.0”, 1197fpe @ 400
14.6fp recoil, Nosler 120g BT, 3180fps, SD=.213, BC=.417, 50.5g H414 (Nosler 5th) 265/311, -12.2”, 1333fpe @ 400
15.6fp recoil, Nosler 140g Partition, 2922fps, SD=.248, BC=.434, 49.0g RL19 (Nosler 5th)247/290, -16.5”, 1434fpe @ 400
16.5fp recoil, Nosler 150g Partition, 2862fps, SD=.266, BC=.456, 48.5g RL19 (Nosler 5th) 243/285, -17.4”, 1513fpe @ 400
17.0fp recoil, Nosler 160g Partition, 2780fps, SD=.283, BC=.475, 47.5g RL19 (Nosler 5th) 237/278, -18.9”, 1550fpe @ 400
17.0fp recoil, Nosler 175g Partition, 2612fps, SD=.310, BC=.519, 45.0g IMR4831 (Nosler 5th) 224/263, -22.6”, 1552fpe @ 400

.308 Win
13.8fp recoil, Barnes 110g X, 3378fps, SD=.166, BC=322, 49.0 H335 (Barnes #3) 272/318, -11.5”, 1253fpe @ 400
15.8fp recoil, Nosler 125g BT, 3214fps, SD=.188, BC=.366, 51.5g W748 (Nosler 5th) 264/310, -12.8”, 1410fpe @ 400
17.6fp recoil, Nosler150g Partition, 3001fps, SD=.226, BC=.387, 48.5g Varget (Nosler 5th) 250/293, -16.0”, 1508fpe @ 400
17.7fp recoil, Nosler 165g Partition, 2820fps, SD=.248, BC=.410, 46.0g Varget (Nosler 5th) 237/278, -19.3”, 1498fpe @ 400
18.5fp recoil, Nosler 180g Partition, 2718fps, SD=.271, BC=.474, 44.0g IMR4064 (Nosler 5th) 232/272, -20.4”, 1655fpe @ 400
20.9fp recoil, Nosler200g Partition, 2571fps, SD=.301, BC=.481, 48.0g W748 (Nosler 5th) 219/258, -24.3”, 1635fpe @ 400

Comparing bullets of similar (not necessarily identical) SD, the 7mm-08 runs 2-4 foot-pounds less recoil with the lightest bullets and up to 4 pounds when comparing the 175 and 200g bullets.    That’s up to 33% less recoil when comparing the 7mm 100g to the .308 125g and 23% less recoil when comparing the 175g and 200g bullets.  Other load data would reflect different numbers, of course.

I suspect there are very few people who couldn’t tolerate the differences.  On the other hand, the 7mm-08 is more than “enough gun” for many applications and in such cases there is no compelling reason to move to a 308 Win and its increased recoil based on trajectory or downrange energy.  Pretty much two peas in a pod.  For game larger than deer the .308 gets my vote.

I second the vote for a .257 Roberts, but it is at its best in the hands of a reloader.  Factory ammo is pretty limited but but Federal and Nosler have good loads.  (Federal only has 1, but it’s a 120g Partition at decent velocity.)  Remington and Winchester loads are ho-hum, as are Hornady’s.   A 24” .25-06 is another great choice and the  ammo selection is excellent.

[banen]

Coyote Hunter,
Thanks for the data.  I don't dispute that the 7-08 is a great cartridge, you are absolutely right, on deer and probably even elk I don't think it would be a bit of difference.  I just have a personal preference for the 308, especially since I have started using heavier bullets.  I use 180's (Partitions) now but use to use 150's, I know it doesn't make sense but it FEELS to me like the 180s kick less, however I know they kick more (according to your data, only about 1 Ft pound).  My gun loves them and I am very confident in them.   

Do you happen to have that same data for the 270 easily available?  That would be another interesting one.  I am told it has quite a bit more recoil, but again feels about the same to me. 

[charles p]

I shoot a 308 and a 243.  I do not favor the 243 under any conditions for whitetails.  I also shoot 25-06, 270, 280, 280AI, 7mm mag, 30-06, and 300 WSM.  I'd pick any before the 243, and I'm a good shot.  I like my deer to go down at the shot and stay down.

[flintlock]

If you are a good shot, put a 100gr .243 bullet through the shoulder blade of a whitetail and they will go down and stay down.

[banen]

Flint,
I don't dispute that at 243 CAN take whitetails, but I would be awful hesitant to INTENTIONALLY take a shoulder shot with it, even with a premium bullet.  I think if you have the gun, and opportunity the shoulder is the best shot available, but I would opt for just lungs if I were shooting a 243.  I would even admit that in the lungs, the 243 bullet might perform slightly better in the fragile tissue than a 30 caliber.    That little bullet would probably work much of the time when it hit heavy bone, but I would prefer it to work ALL the time.  I use 180 partitions in my 308, and I have no concern that the bullet will hold together and leave a good exit wound even if I hit the shoulder. 

[Dave in WV]

I've taken several deer with my .243 and I would not hesitate to shoot a deer through the shoulders with my load using 100gr Rem. CoreLokts.

[billy_56081]

  You can't make up for poor hunting and shooting skills with a larger caliber. A person needs to use a weapon that they feel comfortable with and they will be successful. I worked for an outfitter many years ago that said "we used to shoot our elk with a 222 remington mag. till they told us it wasn't big enough. I'm sure glad the elk didn't know that".

[flintlock]

banen....Did you even read my posts?

I've killed at least 150 deer with a .243...And YOU are going to tell ME about what a .243 will do....

How many did you say you have killed with a .243???

[Brithunter]

Hmm I like this :-

With a Accurate rifle, and Todays Bullets, the .243 is a fine deer caliber for does and med size Bucks. I'd consider it marginal only on a Big Mature buck 200 lbs and above. The Muzzle Blast is often more than some larger calibers, so proper Hearing protection from the start is a Must.

     Now as some of your will know we have some rather peculiar laws on shooting here in the UK. One of them requires a minimujm calibre of .240" for deer except in Scotland where a .22 centerfire can be used for Roe. Now as the Police run the licensing system they like that word minmum and try to push every new applicant in that direction with a result that the .243" is actaully about the most common calinbre used on Deer in the UK.

    In Scotland the law aslo specifies the use of at least a 100 grain bullet. Now thousands of Scottish Red Deer are shot every year and probably the majority with the .243" and Scottish Red Stags are often much heavier than 200 lbs.

    I have only just acquired a .243" and have not even fired mine yet have some issues to sort out caused by the previous owner. Now if I had found the same rifel in another chambering I would have neen happier but this is the first BSA I have seen in person with teh BESA Recoil reducer in the barrel so I brought it issues and all. And no I cannot understand why a .243 needs a muzzle brake even if it does only weigh 6 1/4lbs.

[beemanbeme]

Given the choice between a .308 and a .243, I don't even know why this conversation is going on?  The .308, of course.  That said, and I have never owned a .308 nor shot one. That's because I have owned a .243 and shot one. 
It would be scary to know just how many deer are wounded and lost each year with a .243. Yes Virginia, nothing makes up for a truly lousy shot BUT a bigger ball will indeed make a marginal shot more lethal.  A bigger hole; more trauma; more disruption of life's process. 

[flintlock]

Actually there are more deer wounded because of hunters using guns that are too big, this causes flinching and  lack of use in the off season...

Of the 40-50 deer we kill each year the vast majority are killed with a .243, mostly by hunters that have 25+ years experience and have learned that a bigger bore just makes you a bigger bore...

We have actually asked two guests to not return because they have continued to wound deer, one shoots a .300 Win Mag, the other a .270 WSM...Neither has the experience or the talent to use these cartridges, they are the worst shots I have ever seen...

No reason to start a inexperienced hunter with a gun they can't handle...Give them a gun that they will enjoy shooting...As I stated in my very first post, if you use proper bullets then you will see no difference in how far a lung shot deer runs whether shot with a .243 or a .270...

[Brithunter]

flintlock,

    You MUST be mistaken. Everyone know that when shooting a magnum the bullet only has to get close to blow the deer away 

    Actually I feel that the rifle is far more important than the cartridge it's chambered for! if the rifle is accurate, comfortable and fits then the shooter will more than likely shoot it well. A .243 with a poorly designed or fitting stock is likely to give more felt recoil than a .308 with a good fitting and designed stock. The old P-17 is a good case in  point here. Have one with a good sporting stock and felt recoil is vastly reduced.

    Now the old gamekeeper I used to stalk with liked velocities no more than 2800fps as he claimed it caused less meat damage. He used a Mannliched Schoenauer which he had re-barreled and converted to .243 in Liege many years ago for most of his work he using Federal Premium ammunition it was accurate and dropepd everything he wanted it too including an escaped mad Bullock. One shot through the brain and the charge was over. The beast weighted way more then 200 lbs as did the Austrain Hirsh (Red Stag)  which weighed 22 stone (308lbs) and whose bleached European mount hangs in his parlour. For night shooting Boar in Europe he used either  7x65R double rifle of his Mannlicher GK in 7x64mm.

[Davemuzz]

Well, yes....back in the day we would shoot 'em with 30 calibers.  But are you guys tellin me your still usin guns to kill your big game today? Why....me and my huntin buddies have gotton so good over the years....we just sneak up real close and stab 'em in the neck with our knives!!!!   This is why it's so important to have a quality knife. And maintain the edge with a good stone.

Dave


(Gheezzz.....I can't believe these guys still use guns to take big game.....they need to come with us on another poooler bear hunt)