Hunting Shows

[markc]

Maybe I should have posted this in the Texas forum,  but here goes anyway.    A week back I attended the TTHA Hunters Extravaganza in Houston like I do each year.   I was checking out some outfitters pricing bear and elk hunts.  I came across an outfitter offering elk hunts at around $4400.00 and up, in Oklahoma of all places.   HHmm?   I didn't know there were elk in Oklahoma, so I asked a few questions and the guy gave me a DVD to play on my computer.  I admit to knowing little about elk anyway,  but his price of $4400.00 was for a bull elk scoring up to 320?   Over 320 the price goes up.  Sooooo, I still was curious about elk in Oklahoma, and he told me that their ranch is 2500 acres and basically it is put and take.  They buy elk from a local breeder and release them prior to the hunters arrival.  You tell them what you are after when you book the hunt and they will make sure to release animals that fit the bill.   The cows and calfs are there all the time, but the bulls are not, unless for some reason no one shoots them and they remain for a while.

I dunno guys.   It is similar to other animals we call exotics that are bought at some auction and released on a ranch to be hunted.  It happens all over Texas and probably other states as well.  But for some reason, in my mind it just didn't seem like the manner in which I want to take my first elk.  It would be cheaper, closer to home, etc.etc... I could drive there in a single day.  But I guess somehow I look at an elk and figure it just doesn't seem right.  For me at least.

What do you guys think?   

[The Sodbuster]

Yeah, it bothers me a bit too.  It's one thing if the critters are born on the preserve and live more or less "wild"; but, releasing them a day or two before you arrive to put a bullet in them kind of rubs me the wrong way.  Maybe I'd feel differently if it were $40 instead of $4,400. 

And even if the animals have been there a long time, I'm skeptical you can maintain profitable animal densities without winter feeding (I'm speculating here).  Shooting deer and elk beside a feeder is OK for herd control programs, but not my notion of hunting.  I know it's legal in some states and lots of guys do it.  Wouldn't say I'd never do it, but it's not high on my priority list.  I'm sure there's plenty of fenced operations where the critters are as wild as they come, maybe even born on site, and the ranch is big enough that you might never see the fence.  Just as I'm sure there are other operations where hours before you arrive they release a nearly tame bull/buck/boar/ram into a modest sized enclosure.

I've shot put-and-take pheasants and fished for put-and-take trout, which are pretty much the same thing.  For some reason, with a deer-sized critter, it just seems different to me.  I can't explain why.

[markc]

Same here.  I can't explain it but when I think of elk, they are just so majestic.  When I finally get a chance to hunt them, I guess I want it to be a fair chase hunt on their terms, rather than on a ranch where they have never set foot before and have little chance to hide etc..  2500 acres is a nice sized place and for some animals of smaller size that could easily hide, I might not find it as objectionable, but elk?  I will pass on this one. 

[elmer]

If they were selling them by the pound I would say fine and look at the same as when I pick a lobster out of the tank at the store. After all I would prefer fresh elk meat to store bought beef.

If I'm paying for a hunt I would prefer something less tame. Not that I have a problem with high fence hunting, just a bit more of a challenge.

Of course I may change my mind yet again as I get older and the hips, knees, you name it doesn't want to work. 

[markc]

Elmer, from the DVD they gave me it seemed like the challenge wouldn't be seeing plenty of bulls to shoot, but maybe finding the one you paid in advance for.  Not sure how tame or un-tame they would be, but I would think that they would be alot more tame than one who has always lived in the wild unfenced areas.  I can't even say for sure that the price was a bargain, having not priced many elk hunts.  It was one of the cheapest at the show, and within driving distance of home, only about a 7 hour drive.  One of my deer leases is that far away.   Dunno...Would it be something to be proud of I guess is a question I would have to answer for myself before doing it..

[dukkillr]

Don't do it. 

[statelinerut]

That is a sad shame right there. And the really sad thing is that there are people that will actually pay that price and kill an animal that way.

[markc]

No idea if they sell many hunts, but the video shows a number of people doing it.  One clip reminded me of Noel Feather's so called fair chase hunt where the deer passed in front of his stand panting and out of breath from being chased around the pen until they finally passed within bow range of him.   Not saying they are doing that, but I kinda got an uneasy feeling while watching the promotional video.. 

[SHOOTALL]

I "shoot " quail that way , they release what you buy and you walk them up and shoot them , shot a boar the same way ! We use dogs for the birds and get to watch them work , get to have a meal when we do our part ! It is fun because we never expect or get the experience of a wild hunt !
So if you want a wild hunt then you would most likely be disappointed , how ever if you have limited time , health concerns , limited funds or just want a 100% guarantee of a kill then the fenced hunt might look better to you .
Someone might also use the hunt to get acquainted with shooting a large animal before going on a wild hunt , when on the hog hunt a group was there shooting a large number of animals getting ready to go to Africa .
Enjoy your hunt either way !

[Graybeard]

I think there is a time and place for such operations even tho many seem to disagree. I don't think they are for everyone and many would be very unhappy shooting game at one but not necessarily all feel that way and for some they could offer the only chance they might have.

Take as a for instance myself. For the last 15 or so years my breathing capacity has continued to dimenish to the point now that walking even 50 yards on basically flat land only a few hundred feet above sea level requires me to pause and huff and puff to regain my breath. Running is totally out of the question and so is climbing hills. My shooting range angles uphill about 6'-8' max from the 25 yard line to the 100 yard line. I cannot make that walk with less than one stop to get my breath back.

The lung doctor I was sent to for test insisted I go on oxygen 24/7 but I refused and told him that WHEN he could explain to me what's wrong with me I'd consider it but not until. Well $50,000-$60,000 worth of tests later neither he nor two heart specialists all combined could explain why I cannot breath. All say my heart and lungs are healthy and I should not be having the problems I am but that doesn't alter the facts I am this way. As soon as I stand my blood oxygen level drops to very low levels and will not rise even close to normal again so long as I'm standing even with no activity. Any level of activity at all has me gasping for air.

A traditional elk hunt out west in the over 5000 foot levels with hills and valleys is totally out of the question for me. I went in '97 when I weighted much less and was still able to huff and puff my way up the mountains here in Bama but in CO at 6500-8500 ft 50-100 yards had me on my knees gasping for air. Now I'm not sure I'd even have to walk to be gasping at such altitude.

Now I have no real interest personally in taking an elk in such a place as is mentioned above but for me or a person with problems such as me such a place might offer the only chance available to do it. If I were to try again it would pretty much have to be a ranch hunt on private land where they could take me via horseback, four wheeler or 4x4 to a stand site to sit and hope one wanders within shooting range. I'll never again see the day I can roam the hills as I loved to do nor would I be able to field dress one or even assist in bringing one out should I shoot it. My health no longer allows such strenuous activity.

In reality I'm much like a person confined to a wheel chair in that they have non functional legs so can't walk. My legs function but for some reason the doctors still haven't figured out my heart/lungs don't function very well so I can't breath therefore I also can't walk or not any appreciable distance at least. My mobility is not quite so limited as a person in a wheelchair but then it's not a lot greater either.

While it's nice for those of you still physically able to walk, run and climb hills to say hunts such as those in fenced areas are just not hunting and should be outlawed you just really don't know what it's like for folks who cannot do those things yet who might still have an interest in taking game. I've not yet resorted to it but then I've mostly just stopped hunting as well since I can no longer get out there and do what I've done since about the age of 5 and which has been the driving passion of my life until these days when my body just refuses to go any longer. So go spout your high and mighty principles to someone who shares your ideas and leave such places alone if you don't wish to go but don't try to take them from folks who can't do it the way you can or who just plain don't wanna do it your way. Some unlike me haven't quit hunting and yet might not be able to do it much other way.

[SHOOTALL]

GB , when i posted what I did I was thinking of a co worker and friend , his time was limited and his strength was fading , the hog hunt I went on in late winter was with him , he also got to go on a ram hunt .both were fenced hunts . He could hardly walk any distance then cancer had taken much of his strength  . His ram hunt will be on the hunting channel next year as it was a gift hunt ! that hunt was in the late spring , he was buried last week ! All hunts are not the same but sometimes an easy hunt is the only hunt some of us can make !

[1187VX2]

First of all, to each his own.  I've been to a few ranches and pretty well figured out what qualities a hunt for an exotic species needs for me to be satisfied.  The situation described here would be a 'No'.

1)  I think most all ranches are going to have to buy some (or most) of their animals.  For me, whatever I'm hunting needs to have been free to roam the ranch for at least a few weeks – longer even better.

2)  Not all species are created equal.  Seems like most goats/rams aren't going to be the most challenging.  The deer species (sika, fallow, axis & Red) I've seen behind fences, have still acted like deer.  Big fun.  I imagine Elk would act like Red Deer.  On the ranch I went to last weekend, the owner was telling me that his hardest to get animals were fallow does and Blackbucks.  That’s what I’ll be going after next.

3)  Weapon of choice – For me it has become the bow for exotics.  A handgun wouldn’t be bad.  Of course it’s all going to be situational.   On a huge ranch where you weren’t going to get very close……………But taking an animal @ 30 yards with a 30.06 wouldn’t rank high for me.

4)  Feeders – I’ve killed so many deer over corn or soybean fields, that I can’t really oppose feeders.  The ranch needs to have enough of them that the animals have choices.


Anyway, there are certainly ranches out there to avoid.  Releasing the animal the day of the hunt makes it a No.  For me, the animal still has to have a reasonable opportunity to get away from you.

[markc]

Bill, I didn't realize that your health had gotten so bad.   Now when I eventually do buy a place in Tx hill country, you and Faye still have to come down.  We'll have a chair ready for you.


1187VX2,  about a year back, maybe longer, there was a thread going on here about a place some guys went to for an Elk hunt.  THey found it advertised on a popular TV hunting show but never saw anything on the program that described it as a canned hut.  Once they arrived they found it to be pretty much shooting fish in a barrell, with elk raise there in pens and released into large high fenced areas, with little to no cover for escape.  THey had alot of photos some of which showed them walking right up to bedded elk that didn't bother to stand up and run away.

That to me is like the type of situation you described you would stay away from, and so would I.  This other place,  not sure but it didn't seem to be quite as bad, but I'm not sure it is what I hope for in an elk hunt some day.     

[Graybeard]

Hi Mark, a chair at the end of a four wheeler ride would be nice. 

How are you guys coming on the plans to buy a ranch? Isn't it about retirement time for you?

[BUTCHER45]

     Graybeard have you tried changing laundry detergents and do you use fabric softener?  Fabric softener has been linked to health problems and is often overlooked (more like ignored!) during diagnoses.  They don't want you to get better, they want to sell you treatments and drugs to guinea pig for them.  I will look into it further for you.
     When I think of Elk the last thing to come to my mind is "game ranch".
     I live in Oregon.  Home to the majestic Roosevelt Elk.  These animals are truely maginificent.  A trophy Bull Elk pursued in fair chase out in the wild is what I consider to be the ultimate achievement in big game hunter can mount on his wall in the Northwest.  Elk are exceptionally hard to get to when on a fair-chase hunt in the wild rainforests here.
     When I see a trophy elk on the wall here in Oregon I automatically assume it was taken in fair chase in the wild here.  If I were to see a trophy class elk on the wall that was from a ranch I would definitely view it 100% differently.  I would think that person wasn't willing or able to experience a true Elk Hunt and settled for a hollow triumph.
     I know an Oregon hunter that went to a ranch that offered elk in Texas (he was there for other game) and they were nothing like the Elk in Oregon.  You could drive right up to them and they would ignore you and continue to feed.  Some ranches may be using the same truck to transport hunters as they do feed. 
     That's what I call "shooting". A domesticated Elk taken in such a fashion doesn't belong on the wall.  If your after the meat that's another matter, but an accomplishment as a hunter it certainly is not.

[cam69conv]

GB after working in Steam plants all his life my father ended up dieing from black lung. But before that he was diagnosed with High Iron disease which had the EXACT same results you are describing. Before the black lung even had set in he would be winded just getting up from his chair. It also took them 3 years to figure it out. They started taking about a pint of blood a week from him and made it a lot better.

As far as the subject here goes there are several booking agents that have some really nice value hunts for elk under the price that you quoted and all fair chase. As far as high fenced hunts like the release on demand situation I personally would not go for that at all. If it came down to that was my only choice then ,heaven forbid it would, I just would have to give up hunting. Im a strong advocate of the exotics ranches that operate cleanly and not with this release method. For one I love the meat. Im not a trophy hunter anymore. Got more heads on the wall and in storage than I know what to do with and to be honest I aint seen a rack even make good soup yet. So these ranches give us something we couldnt get any other way. MEAT!!!! You cant bring the meat home if you go to their natural land because bringing in meats from other countries is strictly forbidden. So, if you like fallow or red stag or such as that then how are you going to get it? Sure you can buy it on line. But how fresh is it? Whats the cost per pound? If you do your research you can get many low cost hunts on very reputable ranches that do not do the release style. If you have never tried fresh right off the animal Fallow deer then believe me you do NOT know what you are missing. Its one of the sweetest most tender meats you will ever put in your mouth. Hell I shot a 6 year old buck and the thing was like a 2 year old fat whitetail doe as far as tender.

Lets try to remember that not all these ranches operate like that so lets not lump them all in one basket. Like anything else there are always going to be a few bad apples in the bunch. What we as intelligent hunters should remember is not to get into the rut of that way of thinking. Just because one does it does not mean they are all evil.

[markc]

Bill,  we have walked a few small properties, but so far can't decide.  There are some beautiful and rugged places farther west near Iraan and such that are really nice, mountainous, a few nice mule deer and lots of whitetail.  I kind want a place closer in the hill country, but the prices per acre are getting kinda steep.  Teresa likes that West Texas country and so do I.

We've even talked about Colorado or  someplace like that.  Next May I talk to the pension office and get them to run the #'s for me.   I would like to leave in December 2008, or maybe as late as Dec 2009.   If I stay healthy I have over 2 years of time accumulated that I can stay home and get paid for all the while the retirement acct still grows.

We'll see what happens between now and next May.   I will have 25 years in this Dec 27th, seems like enough.

[rex6666]

this type hunting may be ok if a person is disabled, but i just can't get ahold on it for me.
I may change some day but this year is the first in 9 years to go elk hunting and as much as
i love it, it is THE HUNT to me not the killing