Gun sales pressure

[Dixie Dude]

Which do you guys think puts the most sales pressure on American owned gun companies?  The flood of surplus rifles or the imports of new rifles from companies like CZ, Sako, and the cheap Chinese copies? 

[PA-Joe]

Poor management styles and extreme CEO payments are what is killing american industies! We can build it better and cheaper but with extreme CEO payments and never ending advertising/marketing budgets there goes all the profits! Result higher costs to teh consumer.

[Dixie Dude]

What about union workers and benefits cost?  Tools and machinery should be a one time cost, then just occational replacements and upgrades.  A CZ is half the cost of a Ruger, both with CFR rifles in the larger DG calibers.  Winchester is now out of business.  Remington and Savage were bought out by Bushmaster I think.  All Browning and Weatherby rifles are imported.

[Graybeard]

You're putting out some bad info there Dude.

Remington was bought by Cerberus a large holding company they just so happen to also own Bushmaster. Mossberg supposedly owns Savage but it's a triple secret matter they do not seem proud of and do all they can to hide it. Now who the heck owns Mossberg is anyone's guess.

Only the Vanguard line of Weatherby rifles is imported these days the flagship Mark V line is made in USA. All Browning guns ever made have been imported as Browning has never really been a manufacturer but only an importer since day one.

Winchester is not out of business but their US made line which really was only the Model 70, model 94 and model 1300 anyway is out of business. The imported stuff is still being made. However Winchester is not and really has not been WINCHESTER since Olin gave up on guns and sold rights to the name to US Repeating Arms which was in turn bought out by the Belgians who also own the Browning name.

[Heavy C]

It's like a dang soap opera!  Thanks for laying it out so clearly GB.

[Siskiyou]

One of the pressures on the U.S. hunting arms market is the passing of the old guys that came home after WWII and the Korean War that bought a lot of rifles and shotguns.  There are a lot of fine firearms that are being passed on to family members or being sold. 

I have a couple of friends who father’s passed away in the last year or so.  Both of them inherited a number of firearms.  When these are add to their existing arms they are no longer in the market.  Some of these are being passed to great grandchildren who are in their 30’s and 40’s.  I would not be surprised if these inherited hunting arms are taking twenty-five percent of the market place.

In addition many of the old graybeards are selling off their hunting rifles because they can no longer beat the bush.  I know of one person who recently picked up a 50+ year-old Remington 760 in pristine shape from an old hunter in his late 70’s.  Time just keeps clicking onward.  My Dad gave each of us boys a .300 Savage when he hit his middle 70’s and knew the hills had grown to steep.

As the buzzards circle what will become of our hunting arms.

[SHOOTALL]

So the only real gun manf. owned by Americans , selling American made guns is Ruger , TC , Colt , S&W , any more ?
seems they are doing fine , its like when all fords were black , ford learned and  some in the gun business will also !
check out the redhawk , then the super redhawk , the the different loadings for them , then the alaskan , not sure if they figured out what we wanted of made us want what they made  but they keep new stuff comming !
winchester mod-70, 94, 1300 lets see something new !
if union labor was the entire problem , they would move the plant , sorta like F&N is doing with winchester !not go broke !

[victorcharlie]

Don't forget Marlin, Kimber, and Cooper......

[30-30man]

Most of the pressure comes from a product that should last a lifetime, and economics.  Most people only own maybe one rifle and a shotgun.  They don't go out and buy every month like most of us gun nuts. With gas at an all time high, mortgages, higher groceries, health cost, and no increase in pay, the average American consumer can't afford to keep buying. Every time I tell my brother I bought a new gun, he shakes his head in disbelief.  He has asked, "How many guns do you really need?"  I have found myself questioning it too.  Do I really need another gun?  Most of the time the answer is no.
Even Walmart, the Chinese Import king has recorded an all time low in sales.

 Another reason for the slump is production cost.  Our workers need at least $25 an hour vs the $3 over in China, Turkey, or Brazil.  This is even compounded when the US makers dabble in cheap low end products to turn a profit.  Instead they ruin their reputation and people just stop buying anything from them.   Remington has done this with several of their low end rifles. Winchester does it with scopes, knives and clothing.  Even Smith and Wesson is doing it; ever try one their knives?  Chinese junk that is not worthy of their name.

[SHOOTALL]

30/30 man , i don't totally disagree , but I believe the companies having trouble are the same ones with quality control problems !
A quick review of these forums will back that up ! With CNC machines doing the bulk of the work , labor might not be as much of a problem as it once was !

[dukkillr]

Winchester does it with scopes, knives and clothing.

Winchester does it with their guns!  Winchester hasn't made a quality pump or M-70 in more than 40 years.  They've been destroying their name now for several generations. 

I agree with your premise though.  I think the problem is the proliferation of cheap guns.  I hate them, I wonder why people buy them, and I avoid them like the plague.  A good rifle or shotgun should be something my great grandchildren will be proud to own.  Why do people still collect Model 70s Model 12s, 37s, A5s, etc... but not 500s or Sears guns?  It's because cheap guns make cheap heirlooms.  I want my kids to know the guns I leave behind are American classics, not Wal-Mart specials.  It costs more to buy that type of product, but it's worth it.

[30-30man]

I think I was misunderstood.  A gun doesn't necessarily have to cost a bunch to be good.  Marlin makes good accurate rifles for little money considering the product you get.  The 336 is about the best I've seen in accuracy, function, and quality that is priced so the average joe can afford it.  I've seen 336's in the $320 recently.  You can't even buy the lower end bolts from other companies  for that.  It all boils down to a slow market and bad management.  You can only conduct business off a good reputation and peddle in junk for so long.  With the internet, word spreads faster than ever.

[SHOOTALL]

have you handled a new marlin lately ? the only ones i have found with the front sight on straight have oct. bbls. !
it seens alot of makers seem to either feel they must go cheap to compete or is it to add to the bottom line , lower cost and hold sale price ?

[woodchukhntr]

I am amazed by the number of new guns being made.  Since guns do not wear out easily like cars, you would think that there would be so many "used" guns available that the number of new guns required would be minimal.  My budget does not allow me to buy the new stuff since I can get a slightly used one at 50-75% of the new cost.  The manufacturers are supplying a lot of variations of basic models for specific needs, but the prices are up there since they are made in fewer numbers than the basics.  I like Remingtons, but a good used ADL or BDL does the job for me.  Some of the new features like the Savage Accu-Trigger are great, but I will wait until a used one hits the rack before I get one.

[magooch]

Graybeard, my Browning Buck Mark was made in the USA.  At least that is what is stamped on it.

[SHOOTALL]

a friend picked up a savage , it had a 11/2 lb. trigger , it is a varmint mod in 223 , clerk said the owner traded it to get the same gun with the new trigger !
the gun is one hole accurate at 100 yds , it was had for $325.00 , the shop allowed $200.00 on it for trade in ! all i can say is WHY ?
Another thing , i hear quite a few people buy and never shoot guns , something new comes out they got to have it , again WHY ? and the gun manf. are good at getting us to believe we need something good ! I will admit that sometimes i read a gun review in a magazine and get an itch to get it ( the bad thing is the wife knows also )! add 9-11 or Y2K and the market gets big in a short time !

[gypsyman]

I don't think there is  pressure from the surplus firearm market at all. Just a bunch of gun nuts wanting good deals on guns. If you compare what you can buy in a 30-50 year old rifle, for $100-$200 price range, that same gun if manufactured at today would cost double or triple the cost.
I think where you get some pressure is from the gun company's always coming out with something new. And the writers expounding how this new caliber or model is going to be the best. In reality, weren't there enough calibers and models out 30 years ago, to do anything anybody ever needed! Since a firearm is a durable good, and can last vertually forever, I belive you will see in the firearm industry, what is now happening in the houseing market. With all the gun shows I do, the used gun market is tremendous. And growing, and with the economy looking like it's going into a serious dump, you'll see alot more used guns showing up. You will see alot more pressure from new manufacture company's, rebate's, ammo coupons, whatever, to spur new sales. -gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

gypsyman , if new buyers checked the down range ballistics on some of the new super mags. they might would not waste their $$$$$$$$$$$$ most buy the big guns for LONG range , if they compared the new 30 cal. mags to the 30-06 at 500 yds they may see that the cost for what ya really get just won't justify the cost in some cases ! but the ads get us worked up to buy ! don't they !

[Graybeard]

Graybeard, my Browning Buck Mark was made in the USA.  At least that is what is stamped on it.

So they do these days, ya know why? Because in order to get the government contract some time back FN had to open a plant here in the US to make the guns. Now they are also using it for the Buckmark guns and some of the Browning HPs as well I think. But they are made by FN not Browning.

[MGMorden]

I think it's a combination of factors.  Certainly not the surplus market - I have a C&R and buy surplus guns but every other person I know personally looks at them as an interesting novelty.  "Neat", but it has a funny looking stock, looks old, and has no scope mounts.  They're not interested.

What I see a LOT of honestly, is just used market sales.  There are so many guns out there in the market, that sell for so little sometimes (you'd be surprised the prices you see things sell for when people need money and are just selling stuff off.  Lever action .30-30's are common around here and I've seen several sell for $100-125 in the last couple years), that the manufacturers have trouble competing.

I also think that they've gone too far with cutting corners.  If you look at the "value" guns from the late 60's or 70's (Winchester 670 and Remington 788 for example), in my mind they're fine.  Beech stock instead of walnut?  Yeah that's ok.  Matte blue instead of gloss?  I can deal with that (heck I prefer it).  But today?  A rifle seems to come with as many plastic parts as metal ones.  It's bad when a rifle coming with an ALUMINUM triggerguard is seen as a feature now rather than a flaw.  We're also bombarded with plastic stocks (I've even seen them with trigger guard and swivel "studs" integrated, so they can mold the whole thing at once), and some don't even seem to think blueing (even matte) is necessary at all anymore.  Just spray on some cheap finish that seems to rub off as easily as spray paint and call it a day. Iron sights?  Most don't even think of including these anymore.  Where once you at least had a backup set of sights if your scope totally failed in the field, now you're SOL.

Guess I'm just picky, but I want blue, wood, and no plastic when it comes to a rifle.  Many aren't providing that anymore, which is why I llike a lot of sporterized guns.  Yeah, from a collector's standpoint they've been "butchered", but man I like the feel of a nice, heavy, all steel and wood sporterized military rifle. 

Sadly, it seems that "good" rifles like that being mass produced are becoming a thing of the past, so instead of everyone paying $700 for decent rifles, we're going to have tons a of people paying $250 for junk and if you want a "good" rifle you'll have to go custom for several thousand $$$'s.

I do like the appearance of the TC Icon though (save for the butterknife handle, but it seems that can be swapped out very easily. don't see any plastic parts.  anyone know if there any?).  I'm almost gonna have to lay down some cash for one of those just to support a manufacturer bucking the trend .