Author Topic: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader  (Read 1529 times)

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Offline merhunts

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What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« on: August 15, 2007, 07:34:09 PM »
My Definition is any weapon that is loaded in the muzzle. For example.

Flint Lock
Cap Lock
Rolling Block
In-line Action
Bolt Action
Break Action
Pivoting Action
Electronic Ignition Breech Plug

Did I Miss One? Well I'm sure you guys will let me know.
What Do all these have in common?  They Load in the muzzle.
What do you load them with?
      Examples.

Patched Round ball
Greased Molded lead bullets
Pistol bullets in a sabot
rifle bullets in a sabot
Full caliber bullet with fall away gas seals

Loose Powder
Molded Pellets
Molded Sticks
And one ML Smokeless Powder

What Are Different about them? The way they are ignited.
What ignitions are used
         Examples

Flint sending a spark down a funnel
#11 cap
209 Primer
22 hornet shell with rifle or pistol primer
25 ACP shell with rifle or pistol primer
Electronic Ignition straight to the powder

Now what makes one a ML and makes the other not a ML?
I my opinion there are no difference except for the percussion.
They are all loaded in the muzzle period.
Even a cannon is a muzzle loader.


Take your pick of what you like to shoot of any combination of the above examples and hunt with it.
And don't say what you don't use is not a muzzle loader.
 
A Muzzle Loader is a Muzzle Loader. It loads in the muzzle.
A rifle is a rifle. It take a pre-loaded cartridge.
A Shotgun is a Shotgun. It shoots multi pellet shells.

Lets not make it complicaded.
You can't kill 'em if you ain't in the woods.

Offline NONYA

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 10:27:47 PM »
What about a Mling shotgun? ::)
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline Semisane

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2007, 09:22:42 AM »
[quoteA rifle is a rifle. It take a pre-loaded cartridge][/quote]

I'm confused.  Always thought my 50 caliber muzzle loader was a rifle.  It's certainly not a smoothbore.
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2007, 11:46:45 AM »
you know when he says rifle, he means centerfire.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2007, 01:01:28 PM »
No actually we don't.

Rifles are merely long guns with barrels containing rifling. Muzzle loaders fit that category which is why they are called muzzle loading RIFLES or if not rifled muzzle loading shotguns or smoothbores as opposed to rifles.


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Offline sabotloader

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2007, 06:21:38 PM »
Semisane   

All of my muzzleloaders are rifles - so i agree with you... but merhunts is probably talking about a cartridge rifle in stead of a ML rifle... but a rifle is a rifle....
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline merhunts

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 05:10:08 AM »
Yes I am talking about center fire rifle that take a pre-loaded cartridge. My reason for posting this was because someone in another topic Said they wouldn't call the new CVA electra and the smokeless powder Savage a muzzle loader. I'm confused on why they are not muzzle loaders. And yes technically a 50 caliber muzzle loader could be called a rifle. I forgot about muzzle loading shotguns. They would fall into the break action category. I guess a shot gun with a rifle slug barrel could be a rifle also but most people just call them shotguns.
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Offline manofthe45

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 06:09:12 AM »
. My reason for posting this was because someone in another topic Said they wouldn't call the new CVA electra and the smokeless powder Savage a muzzle loader.

See you entered a battlefield (fairly mild compared to others) that was fought on in the winter and that we have pretty much all walked away from.  Months ago many Threads got hijacked over whether or not SP belonged in BP seasons.  MY post was a little jab at a dieing argument and pretty much everyone else realized it was in fun.



. I forgot about muzzle loading shotguns. They would fall into the break action category.

The onlt two break action ML shotguns I can think of are the Encore and its weaker counterpart the optima.  Then again if you leave the small world of in-lines you have several options.  Heck my old 58 SB flinter was loaded with BLACKPOWDER and SHOT more than its ever been with a PRB.

I guess a shot gun with a rifle slug barrel could be a rifle also but most people just call them shotguns.

No most of us would call them......  Are you ready????????  Better sit down........ 
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Offline huntersmurf

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 08:37:02 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzleloader also look in Websters Dictionary for muzzleloader definition.

Offline james

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 09:48:04 AM »
I think the technology is stretching what a primitive weapon (muzzle loader) hunt should be.  With the breech plugs becoming so easy to remove, it won't be long until someone starts loading their M/L from the breech which would make them illegal for M/L hunting.   Colorado went back & forth on the in-line and traditional issue and still doesn't allow scopes. Montana doesn't have a separate  M/L season and I can understand why.   I may use my Encore now but I'm keeping my Hawken just in case the Game departments decide the high tech in-lines are illegal for muzzle-loader hunts.    When the range and accuracy of a scoped muzzle-loader is in the neighborhood of an open sighted 30/30 or 45/70, what is the need for a separate season.   My favorite hunting method is with a muzzle-loader and I don't want any states to discontinue their M/L seasons.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 10:15:05 AM »
lets face it the ignition system is a separate operation from loading ! bp season is just another tool in deer management for game depts. and market for suppliers ! If i had my way the season would run so long and hunt as you wish with what you wish ! everyone wants to have a speical season , starting to sound like the PC crowd on TV politics ! I really hate to hear all  the fuss over the bow vs. ml ,vs. modern weapon ! pick your weapon and go for it ! i know the bow huntewrs are steaming , well to that i say hogwash for years we ran dogs hunting deer and one of the hunters used a compound bow ! killed as many as the rest of us ! to smokepole hunters where we hunt a bp gun or a shotgun either can be used in reg. season , alot carry the bp gun for the added range ! i like to hunt with all the weapons so its not a favorites thing !
hey set up a bow only hunt if you like , or rifle hunt ! but this debate over tools is just one group making the rest be like them ! and if hunters are ever defeated it will be because we are divided !
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Offline merhunts

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 11:20:46 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzleloader also look in Websters Dictionary for muzzleloader definition.


Enough Said
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2007, 02:09:32 AM »
Wow all this over what a muzzle loader is called.  ;D

Why argue, if it is legal in your state and qualifies as a muzzleloader, then use it. Delaware has changed it's laws this year to include, smokeless muzzleloaders into the books as legal use in the muzzleloader season. As long as it is loaded from the muzzle and the manufacture recommends that type of powder, it is legal. Rifled or smooth bore.
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Offline Dee

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2007, 02:29:39 AM »
Would not the term "MUZZLE LOADER" answer this question for all? ???
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Offline Semisane

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2007, 06:24:16 AM »
Quote
Would not the term "MUZZLE LOADER" answer this question for all?

Now there's a man who understands the English language!  Too bad State wildlife departments do not.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2007, 04:02:22 AM »
if the lang. was simple then you would not have to ask about front stuffers , and keep in mind game Warden and the like have to justify their being ! and fines is the easy way to keep score ! the fact that wildlife is protected is hard to keep a tally !
if ya put the stuff in fromr the muzzle it must be a muzzle loader !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline longcaribiner

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 08:09:27 AM »
OK, now for that "muzzleloader"  does the powder AND bullet have to go down the muzzle or just the bullet?  In the 1870-s, the an American team of marksmen, using special muzzleloading centerfire rifles, beat the Irish National Team.  The primed case full of powder was inserted in the breech and the paper patched bullet was loaded down the muzzle.  In fact, Harry Pope made a great many such rifles, in 33-40.  They took a 32-40 case full of powder in the breech and a 33 cal bullet loaded through a false muzzle and seated with a ram rod. The bullet would not fit the case mouth, too wide.  Is a knock out breech plug really any different than a center fire cartridge?

Then what about a gun that only runs the powder and ball down from a point one fourth of the way from the breech to the muzzle, like the Hall rifles.      Why should a new super mag disk centerfire .32 auto primed in-line be permitted when a breech loading Ferguson flintlock is not.  Or the Sharps, percussion breech loader.  A Burnside, or Smith carbine. 

There are many guns that are hybrids between the "usual"  muzzle loaders and the usual centerfire breech loaders.   

In addition, there are those neither fish nor fowl other guns, like cap and ball revolvers.   

What of breech loaders that use no cartridge case and no percussion cap?  For instance the needle fire bolt action rifles of the 1830's.  They used a serrated needle that pierced the powder and struck some match head material to light the charge. 

My definition of a centerfire is one in which a firing pin strikes a primer in the center  to ignite the powder charge.  After all some in-lines are also centerfire.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2007, 08:50:28 AM »
lets not forget that inlines were invented early on and side locks won out due to ease of operation and less prone to water ! go figure !
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Offline huntersmurf

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2007, 09:27:52 AM »
A breechloader, just like a muzzleloader is pretty easy to understand. If the powder and projectile (loose powder and bullet seperate of paper cartridge)  load from the breech then it obviously is a breechloader.  The way I look at it is a muzzleloader breech must reauire the use of tools to open.

The muzzleloaders that use a primed centerfire case are not breech loaders because the powder and projectile are still loaded in the muzzle and the breech plug is not bored to full caliber of the primed case having only a small diameter vent hole between the primer and barrel chamber. The primed case is is nothing more than a holder for the primer. Just like a shot shell primer, they are two piece, one piece is the holder and the other the primer.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2007, 09:49:30 AM »
then that devil Sharpe's made that Cabela's sells a repo of that can be front loaded or the powder and bullet are wrapped in paper and the end of the paper is cut off when the breach is closed ! in VA.  you can use it if you front stuff it , guess if they blow the charge ya better not have paper in it ! like i said let us hunt as we wish and manage deer by the numbers !
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Offline flintlock

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2007, 09:53:25 AM »
It doesn't matter what we think a muzzle loader is, if you are talking about whats legal in your state, all that matters is what your state regulations say...

Offline manofthe45

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2007, 06:09:01 PM »
It doesn't matter what we think a muzzle loader is, if you are talking about whats legal in your state, all that matters is what your state regulations say...

Bravo
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2007, 01:39:31 AM »
It doesn't matter what we think a muzzle loader is, if you are talking about whats legal in your state, all that matters is what your state regulations say...

I think I said that already... ;D
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2007, 01:49:12 AM »
we most likely know "our" states def. its when we hunt in another state that causes the problem , and shows just how political game dept. are !
it should have the same def. no matter what state you are in ! the twisting of the def. only shows how far the political people will go to squeeze the last dime out of hunters by trying to cater to the group with the most $ and votes !
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Offline longcaribiner

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2007, 04:07:47 AM »
A muzzle loader varies substantially from state to state.  Pa really has no such definition.  In some states any thing you stuff a bullet down the front of qualifies, even a 30-06 bolt action.  Plain English requires that something goes down the front, i.e. loads from the muzzle.  Many folks, including the game agency officials, have forgotten that there are flint, percussion and centerfire guns that load from either the breech, the muzzle, or somewhere in between.    Here in PA, we can't use a breech loading percussion sharps, a ferguson breech loading flinter, or any Hall or Burnside carbines for any big or small game.  Just plain illegal.  Only centerfire, rimfire or muzzleloaders are legal for hunting.    It is kind of stupid that a person can use any centerfire, no matter how pitifully anemic, like a 32 S&W for deer or bear, but not a more suitable firearm, like the perc. Sharps.   Yes we have two muzzleloader seasons, one for any muzzleloader 45 cal and over and a late season for only flintlock muzzleloaders.  No wheel locks, no matchlocks. 

No flint rifles with half soled frizzens.     



 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2007, 04:18:01 AM »
politics ie: lawyers making rules !
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Offline manofthe45

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2007, 05:16:38 PM »
It doesn't matter what we think a muzzle loader is, if you are talking about whats legal in your state, all that matters is what your state regulations say...

I think I said that already... ;D

Yes you did, but I am tired of always agreeing with you.  Course then I don't have to argue with the ones with head in rear syndrome.  So on second thought.

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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2007, 01:21:50 AM »
manofthe45, it's OK to agree with me.  ;D :D  But you and I know we will eventually run into a the ones with head in rear syndrome. LOL  ;D
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Offline giturgun

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2007, 03:56:50 AM »
You left one out I think. Musket cap on the ignition. It is what I use in the 54  , and the 32  8)
Just had to add that one 


Offline manofthe45

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Re: What is the definition of Muzzle Loader
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2007, 07:45:22 PM »
You left one out I think. Musket cap on the ignition. It is what I use in the 54  , and the 32  8)
Just had to add that one 




Just had to stir the pot didn't you ::) ;)  You get a Bravo too.
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