Author Topic: Confederate Mortar Base, PLEASE HELP WITH INFO (Read 6307 times)

Tropico · « **Reply #30 on:** August 22, 2007, 05:27:03 PM »

I know we are talking mortars here..., ALL of which are cool in this thread., I been observing from afar and trying to learn a bit., however copdoc I must say that ol can of DuPont Black is pretty cool !

copdoc · « **Reply #31 on:** August 22, 2007, 05:57:45 PM »

Why thanks Tropico. I just complimented you on your thunder mug in another post on mortars and asked where you got it. The older can actually belongs to a friend. I have been shooting cannon since the late 1960s when i was a teen. I did forensic exams on gunpowder and I never threw away a can. I always left a little in it for reference. I had a library of gunpowder. I posted pics of old cans a while back and other added theirs. I borrowed his can for the shot.

lance · « **Reply #32 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:57:06 PM »

Jim, i know that black and white pic, you cut out the five other mortars and two rows of cannons............won't be making the Greensboro Gun Show, even though it's only an hour and a half away, yes i know all the back roads. ever done the Hillsville Flea Market on Labor Day weekend? it's only 30 miles from here. look it up on the web, five days and half a million people. it covers the whole town. you might find a cannon ball or something there. i might go and pick up one or two of those really cool powder cans like you are showing off

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #33 on:** August 24, 2007, 12:10:10 AM »

Let me echo that on Hillsville (VA) gunshow.

There will be hundreds of thousands of folks there - rain or shine!

We usually park at the edge (where parking is free) and walk in a couple of miles to the center of it.

You can find ANYTHING you need there - might take a DAY to look through enough stuff, but it WILL be there!

copdoc · « **Reply #34 on:** August 24, 2007, 02:21:55 PM »

My Dad and I used to go to the Hillsville gun show but that was in the late 1960s to the early 1970s. I understand there are hundreds of thousands which is why I have not been. I also understand you can find most anything and for a good price if you look long enough so I have thought about going. I might give it a try with a guide. Let me know the dates. A friend of mine swore there was an original mortar barrel for sale but he thought too long and it was gone. Do you take a hand truck with you just in case?

There are other cannon and mortars in the original pic. I just cut out the Confederate Coehorn. I have not found any other period photos. I thought this sled has to be original. Still no historic information on the other sled?

lance · « **Reply #35 on:** August 24, 2007, 05:01:59 PM »

NEWS FLASH........... TREDEGAR and AMES MORTARS...............i kinda feel dumb, but i have an excuse: most good civil war books have picture credits and tell where the item is located. my book in the first two pics on this topic, has no picture credits. then Jim comes along and posts the pics he took at Gettysburg. so i finally know where those mortars are at. today i finally thought, i might contact the museum and ask about them. on the "way" to the museum site, i got side tracked and ended up at the Gettysburg Registry for their Artillery collection. right there on the list: AMES Bronze Union mortar and TREDEGAR Iron Confederate mortar. as a side note, the Tredegar is on loan from a private collection. but it's registered as a real Tredegar mortar............. I will e-mail the museum and ask for some info, since it's the weekend no need to hurry, i figure the helpful ones will have the weekend off

Jim, i let a Swivel gun get away from me at the Hillsville show, while i was thinking if i could carry it a mile back to my truck, somebody slipped in and got it. you can go get your vehicle and then maybe after 4 or 5 hours make it through the crowd and pick it up..........but it's also 4 or 5 hours to get back out of the crowd. i'll let you know if i'll be able to get off work and make it, i'll be your guide, so it's only fair that you'll be my pack mule

copdoc · « **Reply #36 on:** August 25, 2007, 02:09:56 AM »

Quote

I edited my last post about the same time you posted I think. it looks like the ones in your book are THE Gettysburg Coehorns.

Hi Lance
I did say I thought the ones in your book were THE same ones. I asked some of the people at the museum when i was there if it was an original sled and they said "of course" it was. They did not have any references or proof that it was not a reconstruction, just said "everything in the museum is original and proper". They gave me a name to call for more information I did but never got through. The barrel looks original, but is the sled period? Were there any others made like this? It would be nice to have an original photo, description, drawing or reliable info that it was captured that way. The paint on the Gettyburg Tredegar mortar looks too new to be period and actually used, especially at Gettysburg. I have never seen names and unit markings on any original sleds but I don't think it is out of the question that it was done at the time and repainted.

I have had these questions for a long time. Now if anyone knows about T15/M18 recoilless rifles in WWII please email me. I have even more questions. I think the infantry/squad support weapons get overlooked in history. They are not really infantry and not really artillery. Thanks for all the input.

I'll take MY hand truck if YOU push. LOL

Max Caliber · « **Reply #37 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:32:47 AM »

Here's a slightly clearer picture.

copdoc · « **Reply #38 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:54:17 AM »

That is a better pic. I just to a digital pic of the 35mm. I looked up Col Poague and he was an artillery officer. I don't have time to read it now but will post the link. I wonder if the mortar was his or presented to him for service. It would be unusual to have an officer's name on a mortar. Maybe researching the Col is the way to find out about this mortar.

What happened in Dutch Fork, VA in 1864? The pic in Lance's book have what might be a partial date. Maybe it was a "presentation" piece with the sled made after the war.

http://www.aphillcsa.com/poague.html

lance · « **Reply #39 on:** August 25, 2007, 04:16:30 PM »

MYSTERY ALMOST SOLVED!!!! JIM,i meant that without your picture this would be alot harder. the pic in my book only shows 64, your pic shows the good stuff............. Col. Poague entrenched at Dutch Gap VA. from August 1864 to April 2nd 1865. Now this is where it gets really good!!! of all the things i collect, BOOKS are my favorite, i do better with them than a computer. the UNION ARMY was digging the DUTCH GAP CANAL on the JAMES RIVER. the one thing the UNION ARMY HATED the most was the 7000 mortar shells that fell in while they were trying to dig the canal. in another book there is a page about the 4 special light weight mortars under POAGUE'S command that threw these mortar shells............. 4 light weight mortars, so now we know there was more than one!!! and since DUTCH GAP is right near TREDEGAR, now we are getting somewhere..............WHY the RED paint??? WHY is that mortar at GETTYSBURG??? JIM, i don't think it's a presentation piece, i think it's one of "those" DUTCH GAP MORTARS. THANKS TO JIM, i can dig through my book collection and read actual accounts. BUT, I have to know WHO i'm wanting to read about.................. SO, if there was 4, does that mean there were more??? is that the STANDARD TREDEGAR BASE???

copdoc · « **Reply #40 on:** August 25, 2007, 04:47:24 PM »

Hi Lance I think we are getting somewhere, no I think you got it. Hot dang! Red barn paint was easy to make as it just uses iron oxide and a little lead for the pigment. Mortar beds probably broke easily with full power loads, think it can drive itself in the ground and have to be dug up. If you have the platform it does not sink but what a beating it would take(7000shells/4mortars) No wood would hold up long. Those bases were easy to make. Just use the cheapest paint that will hold up. Early artillery was often painted red, green, blue and yellow. Cammo was not an issue. I had forgotten about the Col as I know so little history. I had read about the "light weight" mortars and thought like most that these were the 12 pounders. I'll bet they were referring to the sleds not the barrels. Now that makes sense and should be written up as I'll bet a lot of people have wondered about that. There are still a few references to 4.67" mortars from the CS. I hope one turns up someday. Well one day one will turn up in my basement even if it is a replica. Glad I finally emailed you with the question and that you posted it.
edited this as i miss read the 4/64.

lance · « **Reply #41 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:16:28 PM »

Jim, go to page 1, the second pic i posted, you should be able to double click the pic and a zoom button will pop up, to me it looks like part of an 8 and then 64.........now after i took the time to write this, i saw your edit. so Poagues mortars were all the same, and his mortar now sits in Gettysburg. oh it's funny to read about the Union diggers in the canal at Dutch Gap. they got so tired of the shells dropping, that they put Confederate prisoners to digging next to the Union diggers. AND sent word to COL. POAGUE that he was killing his own men, with his mortar shells. somehow a Confederate prisoner got a note thru the lines: keep on dropping them, you are killing mostly them....

lance · « **Reply #42 on:** August 27, 2007, 03:26:10 PM »

THE GETTYSBURG CURATOR e-mailed me today,the red based mortar has been turned back over to the owner, and is no longer in the museum. the curator said because of privacy, i guess they think i'll steal it from the guy, anyway. the curator will try and get me what info he can, and give my e-mail to the owner and maybe he will contact me with some info....... so it don't look like i have to drive to Gettysburg with a tape measure in my pocket.

copdoc · « **Reply #43 on:** August 27, 2007, 04:45:57 PM »

That is a real loss for the museum. I wonder if it will be up for sale. He was taking a chance lending it to them though. Maybe the owner will let you get a good look at it and fill you in on the history of the sled.

The NC museum borrowed a Gatling gun and when the family wanted it back filed for possession and kept it. He had the gun given to him when he was in the National Guard, so it belonged to the state. All the WWII machine guns and even M14s registered in the amnesty of 1968 are legally owned by individuals. If he had kept it no one would have known or cared.

lance · « **Reply #44 on:** August 28, 2007, 04:54:29 PM »

Jim, that's all i can do, wait for maybe one day the owner to contact me. the curator said he would pass my e-mail along to him. there's a few real vintage cannons and mortars out there in private hands. there was suppossed to be a vintage cannon down in your neighborhood this past weekend. the Statesville reenactment advertised the Hunley exhibit, and "satan" an original cannon, but i didn't get to go, too many irons in the fire. and if i remember right, ARTILLERYMAN, posted some pics awhile back and there was a guy shooting an original Confederate Williams Gun, that's if i remember right.

Terry C. · « **Reply #45 on:** August 28, 2007, 05:32:16 PM »

I tried googling "SATAN CANNON"...

.. big mistake. I hope my computer isn't possessed now.

Anyone got more info on this cannon?

Artilleryman · « **Reply #46 on:** August 29, 2007, 05:18:16 AM »

Lance, I don't remember posting a Williams gun being fired. If I did it would be of a repro that one of my friends made.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #47 on:** August 29, 2007, 07:09:41 AM »

Terry C.,
There were four XX-inch Dahlgren seacoast and naval guns cast at the Fort Pitt Foundry during or soon after the Civil War and one was officially named "Satan". The first of these guns was cast during the war in May of 1864 for the Federal Navy, but it was rejected and after that sold to the government of Peru for installation in the fortress at Callao, Peru. It was named "Beelzebub", probably by the Peruvian newspapers after the common Spanish custom of "Christening" their guns.

The second massive 20-inch Dahlgren was named "Satan" and it received Registry No. 1, evidently accepted by the Army in 1866.

The third huge 20-inch Dahlgren was named "Lucifer", Reg. No. 2 in 1866.

The fourth monstrous 20-inch Dahlgren was named "Moloch" and received Reg. No. 3 in April of 1867.

All weighed from 95,600 to 96,150 Lbs., quite a bit less than the two huge Rodman 20-inch seacoast guns which tipped the scales at 117,000 Lbs. plus. These both survive and today are located at forts Hamilton in Brooklyn, NY and Hancock in Sandy Hook, NJ. only 9 miles apart.

We really doubt if this particular"Satan" showed up at the Statesville reenanactment!!

FYI, Tracy & Mike

Ref., Pittsburgh During the America Civil War, 1860 to 1865 by Arthur Berl Fox

copdoc · « **Reply #48 on:** August 29, 2007, 02:23:16 PM »

Yes Lance Statesville is close and I didn't know about it. The owner of an airport called and invited me to shoot cannon a few years ago. It has to be the same place. He was a very nice guy and related to General Patton's personal physician from WWII, Dr Long. He has a 3/4 scale Parrot and a Boys antitank gun converted to 50 BMG. Thanks for reminding me. At the time I was working 70+ hrs/ week and did not have time for anything. I will look for his number and name. if we are looking for a place and sponsor for an artillery show this would be the man. I said "how do you get away with shooting cannon at the airport" and he said "I close it down, It's my airport". (must be nice)

Stan Clardy, a musician that specializes in Civil War music told me someone in a Statesville group had a cannon named Satan. I will call him later.

lance · « **Reply #49 on:** August 29, 2007, 03:46:15 PM »

Terry C, you should have known better than to do that, i was too scared to try myself, thanks for the warning

Artilleryman, please forgive me, the heat and humidity are getting to me. i was thinking of the Mid West Artillery show photos, had Williams gun on my brain, i think there was also an original 8" mortar there, did you post those? really liked them,looking forward to more

Mike and Tracy, got any Tredegar mortar info you can share. before i look up those Dahlgren guns, i think i'll wait for Terry C to do it

Jim the CopDoc, you are it!!! everybody, the next Artillery show is at the airport, sounds great to me, and only about 2 hours away. I know Stan Clardy, have all his CD's.......ask him if he remembers the Chaplain at the Salisbury Relic Show, i gave him and his wife a couple of Bibles. he said he would use them in his play that he does. that cannon "satan"was advertised in THE CIVIL WAR COURIER, i know nothing about it. the Hunley exhibit is cool, i got to sit in it at the ARARAT reenactment, or JEB STUART's birthplace if you perfer. when you call Stan, tell him i said hi

Artilleryman · « **Reply #50 on:** August 29, 2007, 06:38:49 PM »

Lance, The Midwest Artillery Show photos are posted on the Blue Water Sportsman's Club website. There is a photo of a Williams gun being fired in that set of photos. I probably posted the link for that. Here it is again for those that did not see them before.

http://www.bluewatersportsmansassociation.com/photo_albums/artillery_2007-06-24/index.htm

copdoc · « **Reply #51 on:** August 30, 2007, 11:16:30 AM »

Lance I will talk to Stan and ask about an artillery show. I think they will be interested if they have enough participation. There are a few artillery collectors in the area. Some have WWI and WWII stuff. The gentleman who owns the airport likes to shoot his cannon out there so that should not be a problem. If they are agreeable we can start another thread to see who is interested. I saw the Hunley this spring. It is neat. They really think a lot of Stan at the Hunley exibit. They all knew him. Glad you have his CDs. I mentioned them to put in a plug for a friend. He is good musician. I'll tell him you said hi.

lance · « **Reply #52 on:** August 30, 2007, 04:13:55 PM »

Artilleryman, thanks, that's the photos. really great pics of everything, plus got to love those mortars in action, you guys know how to have fun

Jim, Stan Clardy is a great guy, and i really do love his cd's, i push them whenever i can too!!! shoot yes, if you can get a show going, i'll do what i can to help out. the camp battery has five full size guns, but i'm an outcast for playing with mortars

so i'll try and sway and bait them the best i can. might have to throw in some SCV duties or something, plus Stan is SCV and there are others down there to help too. should go over great in a month or two, if the guys know they can go to Carolina and get a break from the cold wind up here. don't forget the 116th NATIONAL SKIRMISH is oct 3-7 at WINCHESTER VA. should be a big turn out for cannons and mortars. darn, i'm supposed to do the ARARAT reenactment that same weekend and watch more blanks being fired

copdoc · « **Reply #53 on:** August 30, 2007, 04:52:34 PM »

Huh blanks? BLANKS?, forget the whole thing. Just kidding. Stan said tell you hello and I have the name of the gentleman who owns the range. I give him a call soon and see what we can do. I have asked Stan to do a CD "Salute to St Barbara" (just cannon songs) He is going to try and put one together. Five full sized guns is a show in itself. Do you think it should be a shoot, show with demonstration or just show. It would be interesting to see how many types of Coehorns/sleds we have between us. If they call you are an outcast it could be a mortar show. Maybe include the howitzer boys and just call it the indirect fire show.

lance · « **Reply #54 on:** August 31, 2007, 05:06:58 PM »

JIM, dang it , i mean Doc

yes blanks at Ararat, just because it's "tourists season" it don't mean ya can "shoot them"...........i'm not going out on a limb again about the BATTERY, they really let me down for the NEW RIVER VALLEY mortar and cannon shoot that me and TIM got going in July........i'm thinking that it should be an ARTILLERY FOR THE AGES SHOW AND SHOOT. anything from ancient black powder to WW2 stuff, i have friends down in Carolina too! folks that want to shoot is fine , folks that want to show is fine too. i'd like to see that "satan" cannon, and any other kinds of artillery. the best way to get SCV camps to bring out the guns, is for the "host" SCV camp to send out invites. it's your town and shooting range, i'll just be your honored guest

.....i guess to keep DOUBLE D from "getting us" we should try and block out any pictures of modern stuff. you can count on me to come down and bring a few fun things to shoot, i can make a day with nothing but a firecracker cannon,as long as there is some kids around

Double D · « **Reply #55 on:** September 01, 2007, 12:02:39 AM »

You can put the modern stuff in as long the topic is about the old stuff.

lance · « **Reply #56 on:** September 01, 2007, 04:44:18 PM »

Double D, the old stuff is my favorite, anything i'll be doing at an artillery shoot will be black powder related. it will be Jim's fault if any WW2 stuff shows up

.................Jim, ever get any info on that "satan" original cannon?also was wondering about the 12pd Confederate tube you'll be making for the "red sled" type base. outside dia. and tube length is what i'm curious about.

copdoc · « **Reply #57 on:** September 01, 2007, 05:39:15 PM »

I have to admit I like all of it. A PIAT is a muzzle loader so I guess we can post it here.

I called Stan and he was recording a new CD as I spoke to him. I will call him back later and ask about Satan.

My next Coehorn will have a ~6.5" outer dia and have a 4.67" bore (12 pounder). That is the size piece of steel I was able to get and about as large as I can bore. I know there were references to Confederate 12 pounders and that in some cases they preferred them because the shell exploded closer to the surface and they were lighter to carry. I don't remember where I read that but one of you historians probably remembers the reference. The problem is I have never seen a 12 pounder from the CW in museums, books or photos. Hern still advertises their Coehorn as a"full size" 24 pounder but it is closer to a 12 pounder. (about 6 1/2 inch our dia if I remember right) Their sled is scaled for the 24 pounder. I built one using their barrel about 12-14 years ago. I will prob make the 12 pounder about the size of this one but without the rings using the same profile as the Confederate 12 pounder. I want to copy the "Gettysburg" sled. That's why I would really like a good historical reference that it was period. The sled from the Gettsburg museum looks too good to be original unless it was well cared for.

lance · « **Reply #58 on:** September 02, 2007, 03:32:17 PM »

Jim, i will keep working on the history of the sled. as far as the sled looking too good, some of the original Confederate guns i have look that way too. most were only used a year or two, before they were put away as a trophy or an honored relic of the war...........still have not heard anything more from the curator or that other guy. i'll pester Tredegar again, just got to find the right person. i want the history as much as you.

Double D · « **Reply #59 on:** September 02, 2007, 08:44:18 PM »

There is a 12 PDR in a museum there in the Shenddoah VAlley--VMI? There is some question as to whether is is real or reproduction.

I had pictures of it, but can't find them right now. In fact If I think about it the pictures may be displayed here on the is board some where. I tried several years ago to get the curator to send me measurements...he never did. What I do have is a complete set of drawings of Confederate 12 PDR and 24 PDR by the West Bros. These drawings are accepted as correct by the N-SSA.