Author Topic: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?  (Read 2857 times)

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Offline His lordship.

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More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« on: August 22, 2007, 11:04:38 AM »
I know that the law enforcement people went over to the .40 S/W as they wanted more power over the 9 MM, at least they think it is.  In comparing the 3 types, which is more powerful as a man stopper and hitter, the .45 ACP, the .40 S/W, or the 9 MM (9X19) using heavy bullets, like 147 grainers, etc?  If going to a gunfight which would you select?

I have handguns chambered for the 3 calibers, and thought the .45 ACP was the king, but as the recoil is not bad to me in a 1911, why use a .40 S/W with its sharper snappier recoil?

Thanks.

Offline Savage

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 12:16:08 PM »
 ;) :o ::)
Savage
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Offline 1911crazy

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 03:50:25 PM »
I haven't looked closely at the specs on the 40 yet.  I know when the 10mm came out the 185gr in the 45acp loaded to the max had more power over the 10mm.  If i remember correctly even the hotter 185+P ammo had more or close to the same power too.  If the 45acp is behind the 40 it isn't by that much.  Could it be the single stack mag that hurt the 1911 in the past? With the 9mm it was having more fire power(large cap mag) thats why LEO's chose it because they were out gunned with the 38's & 357mag revolvers when they went up against the 9mm auto's with 15rds or more but the 9mm lacks the stopping power. I heard the 40 is suppose to be the hot ticket right now with the LEO's.  One doctor in the hospital said he hasn't seen wounds like this since nam.  The guy was shot with a 40.

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms here too.  We all have a different opinion and thats ok.  I own 45's and 9's but nothing else yet, maybe something different in the future.

My 1911a1's with the #18 recoil spring and the full length guide rod sure tames down the recoil in the 1911a1.  Its very comfortable to shoot with a lot less recoil.


OT:
I have heard about the spec ops in Afganistan and Iraq carrying the 45acp again too.  I think the leaders are starting to realize the 9mm was a bad choice.  I think we were pushed into the 9mm auto's becuse of the other nato countries so we could all use the same ammo.

I have had 1911's since the 70's and only recently I have grown fond of the 1911a1 in 45acp. I have always been a wheel gun guy in the past.  I'm finding out that the auto's are really dependable.

Offline BillP

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 07:30:41 PM »
I have them all and they are all good.  As far as reliable stopping power goes, the 9MM is reliant on good expansion.  It can be foiled by such things as poor bullet choice, winter clothing or anything that might clog that little hole.  The heavy bullets aren't really the best choice.  Teach yourself to shoot a two round burst with this one.  The .40 is available in the same size gun as the 9MM and is not only bigger and heavier but with a bigger hole in the end, it should expand more reliably.   So far the 40  has a reputation for expanding as it should and of course, it's already bigger and heavier than the 9MM.  The .45 comes in a bigger heavier gun but not all that much.  It's slower speed means that it may not expand as well as the .40 but it may not have to.  If you are restrected from using HP ammo. there is no choise go for the .45.  I find the recoil of the .45 pleasing but I have never fired a light weight one.

Offline corbanzo

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 11:15:51 PM »
I wouldn't choose the 9mm with heavy bullets.  It slows down too much and takes away from the effectiveness.  With a 9mm, a lighter bullet with good expansion is good.

The 40smith and the .45auto are about the same as power goes, just the .45 can take larger bullets.

I like the .40 over the .45 mostly because of size.  Yeah, it does have more recoil, but you are getting good power in a smaller package. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Graybeard

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 05:33:27 AM »
"More powerful" depends on your definition of power of course. But as for me I feel more comfortable with the .40 S&W than either of the other two mentioned. I do not and have not for perhaps close to 30 years now owned a .45 acp and doubt I ever will again in this life time.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline rockbilly

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 06:11:46 AM »
I have them all, but I favor the .40 over the others.  First because it has more stopping power than the 9mm, and second it is not a single stack and provides for more shots.

The military got away from the 9mm in Iraq for several reasons, first it did not have the stopping power , and was, for the most part, ineffective in urban combat situations.  Some of the special ops groups went to the .45, but there were others that are using the Sig .40 for the same reasons stated above. 

Now let's throw some "stuff" into the game, you left out one of the most used firearms by LEO today.  The .357 Sig is perhaps one of the best all round cartridges for their use.  It provided power for penetration, stopping power, and will  not ricochet off the windshield of an automobile.  Texas DPS, as well as other State agencies have gone to this round, this  is true for many states.  Cities seem to shy away from this round because of the power, and potential damage in urban use where there may be innocent people.



Offline williamlayton

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2007, 12:10:13 AM »
HUMMMM! Apples to oranges.
My perceptions.
9MM---I prefer the .38 super or the 9x23.
.40---I, just for shooting, don't care for the feel of the recoil. I am not afraid of it but I don't seem to get it back on target as quickly.
.357 Sig--The recoil is more easily controlled than the .40.
.45--Recoil is more easily controlled for me.

Bigger=Better ???
I don't know on this one--I tend too like the bigger though.

The problem with agencies picking calibers is like your momma picking your bride. There are ulterior motives behind all decisions--I prefer my ulterior motives over a committee.
Just for the record---I think the 9X23 is the class of them all.
Blessings   
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 12:43:00 AM »
Gimmie the .45 in a 1911 !!!

Offline Mikey

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2007, 01:20:07 AM »
I'll take the 45.  Ya'll can keep your 40s.  Mikey.

Offline MS Hitman

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2007, 08:58:44 AM »
I'll just stick with my .45 ACPs in both the Gov't Model and Mountain Revolver.  Why mess with a proven performer?

Offline kennisondan

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2007, 09:41:12 AM »
45acp, 40, 357 sig, 38 super... all fine by me for defense and such.
9mm had and used em for years just less of everything except # of shots...
all are controllable and bullet placement is the key.
if you cannot use expanding bullets, then I go with the 45
that is what I USE NOW,
but have a 40 ruger that is a good gun, just don't use it..
 does anyone want it..
dk

Offline Dee

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2007, 10:17:45 AM »
I have them all, but I favor the .40 over the others.  First because it has more stopping power than the 9mm, and second it is not a single stack and provides for more shots.

The military got away from the 9mm in Iraq for several reasons, first it did not have the stopping power , and was, for the most part, ineffective in urban combat situations.  Some of the special ops groups went to the .45, but there were others that are using the Sig .40 for the same reasons stated above. 

Now let's throw some "stuff" into the game, you left out one of the most used firearms by LEO today.  The .357 Sig is perhaps one of the best all round cartridges for their use.  It provided power for penetration, stopping power, and will  not ricochet off the windshield of an automobile.  Texas DPS, as well as other State agencies have gone to this round, this  is true for many states.  Cities seem to shy away from this round because of the power, and potential damage in urban use where there may be innocent people.




Having retired 13 years ago and carried all three, and also a police firearms instructor, swat team trainer, and program trainer for civilian back then, I have had the opportunity to shoot them all extensively, and talked to others whom have had to use them. The 9mm has the POOREST one shot stopping record in L.E. history, and is the reason for the transition into "DOUBLE TAP" defense shooting. I taught it, and for a while agreed with it. The mythical "OUT GUNNED" reason for switching to 9mm, actually was an attempt to find a pistol, that everyone (police officers) could handle well, which was by and part a bust, as the military can attest to. Illinois HP led the way here with the piece of junk Model 39, single stack 9mm Smith and Wesson, which substantiates the myth. There were higher capacity pistols out there such as the Browning Hi-Power, which even though a 9mm, was a better weapon. The real problem all along was LACK OF TRAINING as most gunfights even by today's standards scarcely and rarely last beyond 7 rounds and that includes the rounds fired by the perp also. The 357 mag (revolver) in 125 grain hollow point is STILL KING of the one shot stop in L.E.
The FBI came up with the 10mm, and wanted it, but found again it was TOO hot for many agents whom at the time were still carrying Model 10, S&Ws, and were issued 158 grain LEAD hollow points in 38 special. This TOO HOT FOR THE AVERAGE AGENT led to the development of the 40 S&W, which is by my standards an excellent round.
As for the 357sig penetrating windshields? The 357sig is nothing more than a souped up 9mm bullet. It is NOT a 357 caliber, but is in fact a 9mm bullet, in a necked down 40 S&W case and would more appropriately be named the 9mm Magnum, but the marketeers were going for MARKET APPEAL, and the 9mm had already shown it's weakness in the defense arena. As for WINDSHIELDS, the 9mm WOULD ALREADY penetrate windshields, as well as the early Kevlar vests we were issued if the shooter was shooting ball ammo. I know this as I tested calibers for the dept. and the windshield was high on my list. BUT! So will the 40 S&W, and more reliably also. This issue is more about BULLET CONFIGUREATION than anything else. The 357sig has yet to prove itself as superior in the L.E. arena, and records ARE being kept, in officer related shootings involving this caliber.
Example; Shooting a bowling pin with 45acp ball, it will many times glance off, if it hits the pin in the side and merely knock the pin over. BUT, a flat point TRUNCATED bullet in the same circumstance will BITE INTO the pin, spinning it also. Jeff Cooper knew that this type of bullet configuration would do the same on bone, in a human.
Ball ammo in a 45acp can and sometime WILL glance off a windshield given the angle of the windshield even when shot head on. This I know personally from a fight I was involved in. A truncated flat point of the same caliber will bite into the windshield and 99% of the time penetrate.
As for the Texas Highway Patrol going to the 357sig, unless they have changed LATELY, they are given the choice and the older more knowledgeable officers choose the same weapon in 45acp.
If one is depending on the hollow point to do the deed so to speak, one is putting his faith SOLELY in technology, and would be better off putting it in DIAMETER when exiting the barrel.
In two incidences involving HUMAN adversaries, I was armed with a 357mag the first time with one opponent and the round performed very well. The second involved two gentlemen, and I was armed with a Colt Lightweight Commander. Obviously I won the contest, but with good emergency room help, everyone lived. I have a close friend whom is now as me, an old man, whom shot it out with a Black Panther down here in Texas in the late 60s, at the distance of, across a car hood. The gentleman panther was armed with a 1911 45acp, while my friend a Model 19 357mag S&W. I played music with that friend last night, so as you can see, he was not OUT GUNNED. Having been there myself twice I can attest, that it is more about "STAYING HOOKED" when it hits the fan, and life becomes truly "less complicated". It is this old man's experience that bigger is better, as long as it is controllable, and hollow points ARE NOT dependable. I am not trying to start an argument, and will not debate the issue. I am merely speaking of my own first hand knowledge, and experiences, and friends whom as Teddy Roosevelt liked to say; Have been to see the elephant.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline His lordship.

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2007, 10:33:07 AM »
I did some testing on Friday, used an old 1000 page softcover computer programming book to stop the bullets.  Fired my 1911 with a 230 grain FMJ bullet, and my CZ-75 in .40 S/W with a semi-flat tipped 180 grain bullet into the book at close range.  The .40 S/W penetrated more and had a broader blast area.  The velocity is probably higher, I am not sure if this is the reason why it did more, but the .40 S/W is clearly a harder hitter than the .45 ACP with this limited test.

Dee's observation of the superior truncated semi-flat tipped bullet, may also have been in effect here.

Offline Dee

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2007, 12:19:56 PM »
I did some testing on Friday, used an old 1000 page softcover computer programming book to stop the bullets.  Fired my 1911 with a 230 grain FMJ bullet, and my CZ-75 in .40 S/W with a semi-flat tipped 180 grain bullet into the book at close range.  The .40 S/W penetrated more and had a broader blast area.  The velocity is probably higher, I am not sure if this is the reason why it did more, but the .40 S/W is clearly a harder hitter than the .45 ACP with this limited test.

Dee's observation of the superior truncated semi-flat tipped bullet, may also have been in effect here.

Your test displayed several things. A vast difference in velocity as the 230 grain ball ammo, in factory is about 850 fps, where the 180 grain 40 cal. is about 1200fps, perhaps a bit more. As far as a harder hitter, I think not. It distributes it's energy in a smaller area, than the 45acp but, both are good stoppers. I would feel well armed with either, but would PREFER the truncated flat point in a 200 grain 45acp at about 1000fps. Now that is a real stopper, and a bone breaker. Sans a head shot, the only way to ensure an immediate stop is to break the skeletel support of the body, and either of the described bullets are good for that with I believe due to the extra weight and diameter going to the 45acp. It could vary, but mind set many times decides when the fight will stop, without the above mentioned areas taking the brunt of the round.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2007, 02:05:42 PM »
You should test the 45cal 185gr bullets in +p for performance I think they had the best ballastic specs for the 45acp, but i could be wrong.

My carry rounds in my 1911a1 are my reloads using the speer 200gr soup bowel JHP's pumped up to the max or the silver tip winchesters.

I believe i read that the 125gr JHP's in the 357SIG is equal in performance to the 125gr JHP's in the 357mag. so the ballastics are the same. Since were talking 357SIG did you know the bullet proof vests can't stop the little 7,62 Tokarev?  I really think they designed the 357SIG from the 7,62 Tokarev its its little cousin.

OT just thinking here with whats written above.
Ok its 357mag(rev),  vs.  357 SIG, vs 45acp, vs 40cal, vs 9mm so which one?

The speed of a 1911a1 auto sure is fast if you have a reliable/dependable tweeked in 1911a1.
Its also a fact that the 357mag has killed every north american game too. Overall i still like the 1911a1 in 45acp. and in the north country its my outhouse gun too in the heart of bear country. But like i said before the wounds from the 40cal are pretty bad so the ER doctor said.

Offline Dee

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2007, 04:37:10 PM »
You should test the 45cal 185gr bullets in +p for performance I think they had the best ballastic specs for the 45acp, but i could be wrong.

My carry rounds in my 1911a1 are my reloads using the speer 200gr soup bowel JHP's pumped up to the max or the silver tip winchesters.

I believe i read that the 125gr JHP's in the 357SIG is equal in performance to the 125gr JHP's in the 357mag. so the ballastics are the same. Since were talking 357SIG did you know the bullet proof vests can't stop the little 7,62 Tokarev?  I really think they designed the 357SIG from the 7,62 Tokarev its its little cousin.

OT just thinking here with whats written above.
Ok its 357mag(rev),  vs.  357 SIG, vs 45acp, vs 40cal, vs 9mm so which one?

The speed of a 1911a1 auto sure is fast if you have a reliable/dependable tweeked in 1911a1.
Its also a fact that the 357mag has killed every north american game too. Overall i still like the 1911a1 in 45acp. and in the north country its my outhouse gun too in the heart of bear country. But like i said before the wounds from the 40cal are pretty bad so the ER doctor said.

I would disagree with the analogy that the 357sig is equal to the 357mag in the same bullet weight. ENERGY DISPLACEMENT "IS NOT THE SAME" as the 357 mag has a broader face, or nose, and will displace more energy on a wider area on impact, and is not totally reliant on the hydraulics of a hollow point. The whole concept of the 357sig's penetration is BECAUSE it displaces it's energy in a smaller area on the nose of the bullet. They (357mag & 357sig) are not the same, regardless of what the gun writers or ammo salesmen are advertising. Gun writers, manufacturers, and ammo manufacturers tout the 357sig, but the designation is a hoax. It is not a 357, and it's title in my opinion is dishonest for marketing reasons. It has not proven itself on the street as the equal of the 45acp, the 40 S&W, or the KING OF THE ONE SHOT STOP, the 125 grain hollow point 357 magnum.
I have built many 1911s over the years for myself and other police officers and civilians, and prefer it. The 200 grain truncated flat point is my preference, and I do NOT trust the hollow point as they are TOTALLY dependant on body fluids and FAIL in heavy clothing MUCH OF THE TIME when the hollow point fills with clothing material. If handed a quality 357 mag, in say a Model 19 or 686 Smith in four inch barrel, I KNOW I am well armed and have won a fight with the Model 19. The 40 cal in say a Glock 23, I once got a pit bull off me with one, and it was VERY effective.
As for the 1911, I won a fight with one of those, and it is my personal choice.
As far as ANY 9mm, including the 357sig, which is a hot 9mm, I would try to call in sick. I had the caliber fail miserably twice, on drug raids, one with a chow, and one with a pit bull. Multiple hits at very close range(and all good solid ones) before the animal stopped. I have officer acquaintances that reported the same results with the 9mm in fights.
Some like them, but not I. One has to decide for themselves what they trust. My mind was made up long ago on the street.
As for the 185 grain hollow point, I have not messed with it. 200 grain in the configuration I described is my cutoff weight, and is a good combination with 1000fps, for a fighting round in my opinion. But like I said, it is MY opinion.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Graybeard

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2007, 05:43:55 PM »
I don't follow you on this one Dee. The 9mm is .356" whereas the .357 magnum is either .357" or .358" depending on bullet used with most jacketed bullets being the smaller of the two. You can't possibly be saying that the same bullet weight moving the same speed is some how less because it starts out a mere .001" less in diameter??? What am I missing?


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Offline Dee

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2007, 02:27:24 AM »
The 9mm is 355 and most jacketed 38- 357 is actually 357-358, as you say. It is the surface area on the nose of the bullet, where it tapers down. It is or was COMMON KNOWLEDGE, that a 357 magnum (revolver) or even a 44 magnum (revolver) WOULD NOT penetrate a kevlar balistic vest worn by police officers, but 22 long rifle and 9mm ball would. The latter two were able to do this BECAUSE they concentrated their INITIAL ENERGY in a smaller area BECAUSE OF as smaller bullet nose, and were able to slip thru the material. This failure of the vest has long since been corrected by the vest companies, but was at one time a reality.
It is simular to trying to push an un-sharpend pencil thru a heavy piece of canvas, and then doing the same thing with an ice pick. Another way of describing it is, taking a 4570 and shooting a 3/8" steel plate at 50 yards. It will bend the crap out of it but usually won't penetrate (some steel it might. Shoot the same plate with a 22-250 and see what happens. MORE ENERGY CONCENTRATED IN A SMALLER AREA OF THE STEEL. Once the concept is understood, it is not complicated. I once had a friend in a domestic call, where the wife ran an ice pick down the back of his vest, while he was trying to get control of her husband. He was only scratched but the point was made to him, about the limitation of the vests at the time, and it ended up being a way to make the point. A 44 magnum can't penetrate the vest, but a 98 lb woman with an ice pick can. EVERY TIME. Like it or not, except it or not, the 9mm in any configuration is TOTALLY dependent on the hollow point functioning to get a quick stop. Bigger is better, and as slow as our military is, it has learned this about the 9mm.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline His lordship.

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2007, 11:19:26 AM »
The narrow front aspect in penetration is interesting in another ballistic test I did last year.  I used a hard cover accounting book, around 1100 pages to test the penetration of a replica 1860 Colt army revolver in .44 lead ball, black powder, medium loads.  And a German army P-38 post war pistol in 9 MM, 4" barrel, using 115 grain FMJ bullets.  Fired distance was around 15 feet.

The P-38 had an approximate penetration of 2/3 of the book.  The Colt .44 only penetrated 1/3rd.  I had read that the Colt .44 1860 Army was similar to a modern .38 special in hitting power, maybe in knockdown, but certainly not in penetration.  Bullet testing is always a good use for old college textbooks, then recycle.

Offline camsdaddy

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2007, 02:20:55 PM »
Chris my wife is in school at the moment and I can say from your earlier post you sure do use some expensive testing media for bullets.

Offline blhof

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2007, 06:46:00 PM »
My brother was privy to a special forces weapons demonstration in which an instructor took a 9mm pistol with a high cap mag and demonstrated that a bullet proof window can be defeated by rapid fire in a concentrated area.  Even the 9mm in the right hands can do the necessary job, but I too prefer the 40 or 45 for sheer knockdown power.

Offline Dee

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2007, 05:48:14 PM »
One or two are beginning to grasp the concept. When I first start being educated in balistics as far as street use I was told that a 9mm ball would out penetrate a 357 magnum in most ANY MEDIA. I was skeptical, and the instructer demonstrated. The smaller the nose on the bullet and the smaller the calliber, the more energy, that is CONCENTRATED in a smaller area causing deeper penetration. It's just that simple. MY POINT WAS, AND IS. Do not pick a caliber that is DEPENDANT on a hollowpoint working. Many times it will not. Bigger is better.

As far as knock down power. A Chevrolet or Ford, have knock down power if you hit someone with them. The 40, and 45 have STOPPING power. But I know what you mean. ;D
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline rockbilly

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 05:30:30 AM »
Boy, y'all done got me so confused I ain't gonna carry any of them hand guns anymore, i am guess it is time to pull the ole 12 gage outta the safe, now if I can just remember where I put that box of 00 buckshot.

Offline 454Puma

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2007, 11:36:47 AM »
Chris D.
 If I know I'm going to a gun fight I'm not taking any pistols!! It will be rifles and a shooty with buck!
One shot , One Kill

Offline prairiedog555

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2008, 01:18:58 PM »
My thought everytime I hear about 9mm being underpowered is of my dad.  He was shot with a 9mm  in the thigh that ripped through bone and both cheeks of his ass.  It put him down and left a big wound channel. 
When he would catch me looking at the scars he would just say "I'm still looking for that Kraut that did this"
He was in the hospital for 3 months and was only let out for the battle of the bulge.  Walking with a cane and shouldering an M1.  They don't make many like that anymore.

Offline kennisondan

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2008, 04:35:26 PM »
I would not hesitate to use the 45 or the 40 for my own gunfight if there were one... Ihad both recently and let the 40 ruger go.. kept the 45 1911... more confidence in the short range power and knock down of the pre-expanded 45 ... it will penetrate well enough to clear small problems barriers and heavy clothing, and ther is more chance to hit the necessary stuff for the stop and to take it out.... I beleive in a spine or other central nervous system shot for instant stops and breaking of big bone to anchor an adversary; so the 45 is my own choice.. but I would not scoff at a 40... with a 9mm I would be most careful to pick my shots even more than with the others and would worry about heavy clothing etc. in the way.
dk

Offline kjeff50cal

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2008, 05:48:39 PM »
I've been monitoring this thread and I wondered about the various bullet shapes of the rounds in question. Why is there no truncated cone bullet loads for the 9 mm? I know the meplat (sic) would be smaller then the .40 S&W but it would be better then ball.
Ignorance leads us into the darkness, Knowlege leads us out.

Offline Ak.Hiker

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2008, 08:04:12 PM »
I think that the 9mm ball will out penetrate the 357 Magnum if the 357 is loaded with soft points. If you load up the 357 Magnum with a good cast bullet I think the results would be different. The 357 loaded with a 200 grain CorBon cast or Buffalo Bore 180 cast will go through a lot of wood. The flat point makes a bigger hole going out the back than the 9mm as well. Shooting through some old 2x4's I found that 158 grain 357 Magnum soft points penetrated about the same as 45 230 grain ball. The 180 grain 40 S&W TMJ's with the flat point out penetrated both the 45 ACP 230 ball and the 357 Magnum soft points in the same test by quite a bit. I would think the 9mm ball would have as well.     

Offline Mikey

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Re: More powerful...45 ACP, .40 S/W or heavy ball 9 MM?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2008, 01:38:25 AM »
kjeff50cal:  actually, there are or were truncated nose slugs for the 9mm.  The Germans used them during WWII and there is still a cast in that design for the 9mm at 121 gns - it is the old Lyman #356402 slug, which is truncated with a flat point.

I have carried a 9mm, a couple of them.  They worked fine but you have to have a technique and multiple shots is the technique.  This is why the SAS developed the double tap, with two man teams - that means 4 rounds out - two to the chest and two to the head. 

As for the 45, it is my preference.  The 40, in comparison, may have a greater 'impact' because of its larger flat metplat over the round nose of the 45, but I have yet to see a 180 gn 40 S&W clock out at more that 1100, with just over 1000 being the norm - maybe the 165s or the 135s clock out faster but the lighter the bullet weight in a larger bore is not something I favor much. 

Since I use a 45 auto for personal defense or close in field work I avoid hollow points for their lack of reliability at slower velocities and prefer a flat nosed slug and there are two that I currently use and perform well.  One is a 230 gn fmj-swc and the other is a cast Lyman #452423 swc.

If I know I'm going to a gunfight I will go with a battle rifle and use the handguns for close in work.  JMTCW.  Mikey.