Author Topic: Hunting as bad as dogfighting? (Read 1931 times)

.54 · « **on:** August 22, 2007, 12:19:44 PM »

Below is an excerpt from an Associated Press article concerning Michael Vick's conviction on dogfighting charges.
The statement is attributed to R.L. White - President of the NAACP Atlanta chapter. Obviously he views hunting as a crime.

==========================================================================================
"Some have said things to save their own necks," White said. "Michael Vick has received more negative press than if he had killed a human being."

White said he does not support dogfighting and that he considers it as bad as hunting.

"His crime is, it was a dog," White said.

Swampman · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2007, 01:35:23 PM »

beemanbeme · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2007, 05:50:59 AM »

They shoot greyhounds that don't perform. And they do the same thing with bird dogs and hounds and stock dogs. And many an unwanted litter of pups and kittens have been drowned but to hang A dog or drown A dog (if this isn't some sort of sick PETA propaganda BS) because he won't perform takes a really sick person. When I lived in Tenn and Okla, I knew some folks that kept fighting dogs and you would probably be amazed at the care that was lavished on them.

That said, R.L.White is a Jesse Jackson wannabe (censored word) playing to the nickle seats.

~Ace~ · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2007, 06:11:11 AM »

ANY win for HSUS is a LOSS for the Hunters

Dog are Property, Nothing more or Less

Don't let Emotion or lack of knowledge cloud your judgement

Culling is a part of REAL LIFE ! Cows, Horses, Chickens, Dogs, ANY Animal in a selective breeding situation has to meet standards or be disposed of.

HSUS and PETA Kill Millions every year in Various ways, including there portable Murder wagon, 55 gal drums on a trailer they put animals in and hook to their Exhaust pipe.. JP Goodwin gets his rocks off with this contraption, and is normally on location wherever it goes.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2007, 07:00:24 AM »

PETA is "Over the Edge" on the animal rights stuff.

At "Grandma's Farm" when the kitty's finally came out, so did the burlap bag, the brick and the tie string. The brick, kitty's went into the bag and the bag went into the swamp. It was quick, clean and over in a minute. No blood, no missed shots, no crying.

Dogs and cats are put down every day at shelters.

But, none are stomped to death....none are drenched with water and electrocuted.

If you were given a choice between a block of cement tied to your foot and thrown in the water, or being stomped to death, which choice would you want?

The issue here is not the self promotion of "PETA Thinking". The issue here is the cruel and unusual punishment given to the animal before it died.

That kind of "torture" or "punishment" just isn't right. I think it's exceptionally difficult for anyone to justify that that type of killing of any animal is acceptable.

As a hunter I constantly look for the bullet or the arrowhead that makes the quickest\cleanest kill.

Killing kittens on a farm cannot be compared to this situation. A working farm is a way of life. It's an entirely different way of "thinking" about life, animals and their purpose on this earth. Ask the Amish if they enjoy the task of "thinning the cat heard"? I don't think so.

There is a reason that this type of "sport" is outlawed. It's cruel and unusual punishment to the animal.

I shoot groundhogs for sport and practice. Hardly are those flea riddled ground rats on the same platform as any dog on this planet.

As far as R. L. White's statement is concerned, it's quite obvious he has never stepped foot on a farm, never held a shotgun or a rifle, and probably doesn't understand that steak actually comes from a cow. His own words reflect his ignorance of American heritage. Sad that he's the head of any organization. However, my bet is when he's in New York City at any given function, if pheasant is being served at whatever exclusive restaurant he is at, he's the first one to belly up to the table.

MHO

Dave

flintlock · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2007, 07:06:31 AM »

You can't fix what he has, don't even make a pill for it....

~Ace~ · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2007, 07:07:03 AM »

How many HUMANS do we as a country KILL Every Year buy putting wet spounges on them and Electrocuting ? Nuff Said ! They are DOGS ! Personal Property !

People in the USA Celebrated when they HUNG Saddam !

1 in 20 Greyhounds lives to see 18 months old... and the Industry Standard for culling them is to "Braincase" thats putting there head on a plock of wood and hitting them with a 18oz Ball Peen Hammer... Sometimes it's Quick, sometimes not.. But most often it's Much faster than the Cow died that put the meat in your freezer.. What about the Millions of chickens killed Every day in lots of dif creative ways ?

When we allow people to decide How we Must take care of our property, we have given up all that Many men have Died for to give us Liberty, WAKE UP !

Davemuzz · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2007, 07:12:36 AM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on August 23, 2007, 07:07:03 AM

How many HUMANS do we as a country KILL Every Year buy putting wet spounges on them and Electrocuting ?

Ace,

Ummm....we don't do that anymore. Use to do that in the 40's and the 50's.....but that was half a century ago. No wet sponges today! (Were you thinking "The Green Mile" was a 2006 current event?)

~Ace~ · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2007, 07:23:49 AM »

I'm sure you have Links to back up that Claim Dave ? Because to NOT use a Sponge is Insane... and would make what Vick did MUCH more Humane that what you Claim we use to kill People...

Quote

The head and legs of the condemned person are shaved and the prisoner is strapped into the chair. A moist sponge is placed on the head to aid conductivity. One electrode is attached to the head and a second attached to the leg to provide a closed circuit. At least two jolts of an electrical current are applied with the time and current depending on the physical state of the condemned person. Typically an initial voltage of around 2,000 volts is applied for up to 15 seconds to attempt both to induce unconsciousness and to stop the heart. The voltage is then lowered to reduce current flow to approximately 8 amps. The body of the person may heat up to approximately 138 °F (59 °C), and the electric current will generally cause severe damage to internal organs.

Quote

The electric chair is perhaps something that we take for granted for nowadays as the quickest
and most humane way of executing a human being. In the early days, however, the proponents of the use of electricity as a means of death had to prove that it was indeed the most proficient manner of execution. Chair inventor Harold Brown had applied for the chair's patent and, thus, set out on an campaign to prove its efficiency. Using a prototype, Brown demonstrated the chair's capabilities on more than fifty cats and dogs. The New York commission (which was the first state to consider the new invention) needed more convincing. Brown replied by killing a cow before a panel of advisors. He emphasized his chair's ability by killing a horse. The panel was impressed. On June 4, 1888, electrocution became a legal means of capital punishment

Quote

Provenzano argues that the testing of the electric chair is not being conducted in accordance with the Testing Procedures for Electric Chair ("testing protocol") established in April 1997, as a result of the problems that occurred during the execution of Pedro Medina. He claims that the precise voltage and amperage requirements established in the testing protocol are not being used during the actual tests conducted on the electric chair.

The relevant provisions of the testing protocol provide:

C. The Test:

After the equipment is examined, remove the natural sea sponges from the saturated saline solution and position in the head piece and leg piece to cover the electrodes. Connect the head piece and leg piece to a repeatable resistive load to measure voltage and amperage. Energize power to the execution control panel. Close safety switch. Energize the execution switch. Begin automatic cycle with the programmed 2,300 volts, 9.5 amps, for 8 seconds; 1,000 volts, 4 amps for 22 seconds; and 2,300 volts, 9.5 amps for 8 seconds. After cycling is completed, manually disconnect the equipment at both the execution panel and the safety switch. Shut down all other related operational equipment.
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/deathrow/drorder.html

Quote

No, because resistance of tissues (saltwater soaked, remember?) will
always be less than skin. Even wet skin. In the electric chair they
use salt-soaked sea sponge and metal plate, and even then rely on local
burn (skin destruction under electrode) to get really good contact
(resistances of under 200 ohms, head to leg).

Quote

After being led into the execution chamber, the prisoner is strapped into the chair with leather belts across the chest, thighs, legs, and arms. Two copper electrodes are then attached - one to the leg, a patch of which will have been shaved bare to improve conductivity, and the other contained within a helmet to the shaved head. The electrodes are either soaked in brine or treated with gel (Electro-Creme) to increase conductivity and reduce burning.
A leather face mask or black face cloth is applied. The prisoner will also be wearing a diaper.
The executioner presses a button on the control panel to deliver a first shock of between 1,700 and 2,400 volts, which lasts for between 30 seconds and a minute. This is automatically timed and controlled. The current must be under 6 amps to ensure the body does not cook. Smoke usually comes out of the prisoner's leg and head. A doctor then examines the prisoner, who if not dead, is given a further shock (In some states, this is done automatically by the control gear)
A third and fourth are given if necessary. (It took 5 jolts to kill Ethel Rosenberg)
On average, the process takes 2 minutes,10 seconds and two shocks are given.

Quote

It is still a legal method in 7 states - Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Nebraska, Tennessee and Virginia, but only mandatory now in Nebraska.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:00:26 AM »

Well Ace.....you've done a lot of research on this. Somewhere in the vast (vast could also mean empty

) cavern's of my mind, I was quite certain the Supreme Court nixed this as "cruel and unusual" and bla...bla...bla and such.

However...as far as people are concerned, I guess if you reached the point where your getting the salt water sponge put on your head, and the 'ol electric hook up's attached to your go-nad's 'n such....something tells me you've not been such a "good playmate" and you've done a bit more than "color outside the lines".

That being the case, and based upon your research, then perhaps that human is deserving of the electric company's little "joy ride" into oblivion. I'm pretty sure....not 100% mind you....but maybe 99%...that the relatives of the victim of "Mr. Gimmie Da Volts" probably are not too sad about the sponge bath thing.

However, I am 100% sure that the dog that got doused with water and juiced....or the other one that was stomped to death???.....Yeah....I'm quite sure that neither one of those dogs raped, murdered or beat up anyone before they got killed.

What-da-ya-think?

Dave

~Ace~ · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:12:39 AM »

I think they did not make the cut and were culled from the breeding program as the Owner seen fit. Simple as that.

As to Stopming a bulldog to death... Possibly one that was in bad shape after a match and already on a downward spiral.. But it would take Way more man than I am to stomp a healthy bulldog to death.. Probably more than 5 NFL Linebackers.

I have No doubt that Vick is guilty of the charges... But I have Serious issues with the laws allowing these charges. We Clearly have allowed the Animal Terror groups to put Animals WELL Above People, and that SUCKS ! Vick is on Every website, and Every TV channel, while folks charged with Killing PEOPLE are getting 15 year's with a chance of Parol in 5... Five years being what Vick could get.

If Animals are elevated to being More than our Property, hunting is is Bad shape. Unfortuanitly were well on our way. With the Disgusting public reaction to this... Just think what a Vid of a Deer hit with a arrow and flopping around screaming would do... Right before a Vote to ban Bow hunting.

Like it or not, Dogfighters and Cockfighters are allot closer to hunting than we want to admit, they are just a stepping stone to end ALL Animal Use for HSUS.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:25:32 AM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on August 23, 2007, 09:12:39 AM

Like it or not, Dogfighters and Cockfighters are allot closer to hunting than we want to admit, they are just a stepping stone to end ALL Animal Use for HSUS.

Ace,

This is America. You can "admit" to anything you want to. You certainly are entitled to your opinion and if this is how you see it, then so be it.

However, letting two dogs loose in a cage to kill one another or sit back and watch two Chickens peck each others eyes out.....well, I guess I'm just an old fashion guy but somehow I can't make the leap to how that's even close to hunting.

So, I'll keep sticking deer with arrows and shooting game with bullets. The cleaner the kill the better. I don't think we will see any State Game Commission's giving classes on "Deer stomping 101" in the near future....but hey....I was wrong once back in 1974.

Dave

victorcharlie · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2007, 12:28:18 PM »

Quote from: ~Ace~ on August 23, 2007, 09:12:39 AM

I think they did not make the cut and were culled from the breeding program as the Owner seen fit. Simple as that.

As to Stopming a bulldog to death... Possibly one that was in bad shape after a match and already on a downward spiral.. But it would take Way more man than I am to stomp a healthy bulldog to death.. Probably more than 5 NFL Linebackers.

I have No doubt that Vick is guilty of the charges... But I have Serious issues with the laws allowing these charges. We Clearly have allowed the Animal Terror groups to put Animals WELL Above People, and that stinks ! Vick is on Every website, and Every TV channel, while folks charged with Killing PEOPLE are getting 15 year's with a chance of Parol in 5... Five years being what Vick could get.

If Animals are elevated to being More than our Property, hunting is is Bad shape. Unfortuanitly were well on our way. With the Disgusting public reaction to this... Just think what a Vid of a Deer hit with a arrow and flopping around screaming would do... Right before a Vote to ban Bow hunting.

Like it or not, Dogfighters and Cockfighters are allot closer to hunting than we want to admit, they are just a stepping stone to end ALL Animal Use for HSUS.

I agree with most of your post ace.

I've bread beagles more than 20 years. Culling is a fact of life.

People loose rights every day......seems like animals gain rights every day.......problem is they can't vote (except in Chicago) and don't pay taxes.

This is a bad law IMO

Davemuzz · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:43:06 PM »

Quote from: victorcharlie on August 23, 2007, 12:28:18 PM

I've bread beagles more than 20 years. Culling is a fact of life.

VC..when my Grandma would reduce the kitty population, it was just a rock, bag, rope, in the swamp thing. When you culled your beagles, did you stomp on them? Did you dip 'em in water and tie electrical wires around 'em and plug 'em in? Was it entertaining when you did this "culling" procedure? Did you think of other creative ways to "cull" the unwanted beagles? You know, so you could enjoy it?

I'm thinking you probably did not enjoy it, nor find it entertaining, nor think of additional creative ways to do this. Just like on a farm, it's a fact of life...as you said.

Quite different.....very different......night and day different from what was done to these dogs. It's not an animal rights thing. It's a common sense thing. The enjoyment of cruelty to any animal or person is lower than sad. It is in fact criminal.

Dave

~Ace~ · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2007, 02:08:09 PM »

Enjoy Culling ? Who said Anyone Enjoyed it ? Nobody Enjoys spending thousands of dollars to raise / condition a dog and have to cull it. But it's a Fact of Life and has to be done... Pussified America that has no concept that beef comes from a cow,eggs from a cheekins ass, puppies don't live forever... Animals don't talk and have feelings (Disney) is the real issue here.

Swampman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2007, 04:19:02 PM »

~Ace~ · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2007, 04:30:15 PM »

Actually... if I was going to cull a dog, it would be with a .22 in the ear...

But.. Electrocuting them is a product of Society, in MANY places it's Illegal to Shoot a dog. Shooting a dog draws attention, this is 2007, people hear gunshots in the evening and they freak out and call 911... you can guess why someone culling a dog at night would not apreciate that.

Electrocuting them is VERY Fast, Very Humane, AND MANY "Humane Societies" use it ! they just don't talk about it.

Gut shooting deer ? You off in left field buddy, and if that was directed at me your Way out of line..

Davemuzz · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2007, 03:21:29 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on August 23, 2007, 04:19:02 PM

While I consider dogs and livestock property, I still believe that it's wrong to make any animal suffer needlessly. Shoot them in the head if you will.

I don't have a problem with fighting pit bulls. That's what they were bred for.

Hmmmm.....let's see here Swamp, first you say don't let 'em suffer needlessly....then you say it's Ok to throw 'em in a small pen and watch 'em fight until one of 'em kills the other. So, that isn't "needless suffering?" Oh...I guess that is "Needed suffering". Yeah....I'm real clear on that now.

Dave

Davemuzz · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2007, 03:24:17 AM »

A .22 behind the ear, is quick and effective. If your ever in SW PA and have a terminal pooch and need a place, look me up. I can show you several.

Dave

Swampman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2007, 05:41:13 AM »

They only exist for fighting and killing. That's their intended purpose.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2007, 06:46:24 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on August 24, 2007, 05:41:13 AM

They only exist for fighting and killing. That's their intended purpose.

If you raise 'em that way.

Your startin to sound like an anti-gunner. "Guns are only used for killing". Gheeezzzzzz

Dave

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2007, 09:09:33 AM »

That this discussion is even taking place here shows just how far down the slippery slope to political correctness this country has come. Fifty years ago no charges would even have been considered and how a man treated his dogs was his and only his business. Yet here we have a bunch of folks who supposedly support Constitutional Law yet are so damn worried about a dog and how it gets treated. Do you people not understand that to the anti's what we do to game is just as bad as what this idiot did to the dog? Do you not understand the implications of that? Yet you are bitching and moaning about how horrible what he did is and falling right into the trap set by the anti's.

Geez it was just a dog for Christ's sakes get over it. Who gives a rat's ass what he did to it? Certainly not me.

If what he did broke the rules of the game he played whatever kinda ball game he participated in then he has no right to go back to it but who cares really how he killed the dogs that failed to meet the expectations he owned them for. What a bunch of PC types some hunters have become.

Swampman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 24, 2007, 10:09:42 AM »

Guns are inanimate, dogs aren't. Pit Bulls are called Pit Bulls for a reason. Personally I don't even like dogs or kittens, but I don't want to drown or hang any.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #23 on:** August 24, 2007, 01:36:27 PM »

It's not a matter that he killed the dog. Dogs get killed every day. If you have a dog and decide to kill it, cull it, put it down, or call it what ever name you choose, that's your choice and your business and you can do that.

Should you choose a gunshot behind the ear, a lethal injection at the vet, a block of cement & rope at the pond. That's your choice. The method should be quick, clean and with no needless suffering to the animal. I see it this way in 2007 and I saw it this way in 1967. I don't see where any change in political correctness has occurred.

Call me crazy, but I don't see any specific methodical pattern to Bad News Kennels killing of dogs. They didn't just shoot every dog they wanted to put down. They didn't just drown each one.

No. What they did in these two instances was stomp one to death. And go thru a laborious process of water dousing, electrical hookup and shock treatment to death. Call me crazy but what that tells me is you have one pissed off guy who lost a bunch of money and is taking out his little tantrum on the dog that lost the fight. Well, that's one sick individual who does that.

No PC there....just one sick guy. Jail time may serve him well so he can think about his actions. Maybe he will grow up.

Dave

kid_couteau · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2007, 02:14:04 PM »

I just cant believe this

I am sorry but any animal I dispatch of I would do it as humanely as possible.

If I did live on a farm and I had to kill animals for food I would do it quick and clean.

As for dogs in my opinion they are not property they are family. If I had a femal dog and she had a litter I would either raise the pups myself or find them good homes. I would not dump them in the drink to die because I didnt want the responsibility.

My goodness what would you do with an unwanted child? Oh yeah thats right people abort them instead of being a man and taking responsibility for them.

My opinion, if you own a dog or cat you take care of them and dont get rid of them just because they are an "issue"

They should take this guy that had the dog fights and let him be pulled apart by horses.

If humans want to get into the ring and get their brains beat out so be it, they had a choice, the dogs didnt.

I cant believe how far from grace the human race has dropped. The sooner Armageddon gets here the better.

Kid

victorcharlie · « **Reply #25 on:** August 24, 2007, 03:53:33 PM »

Once again Greybeard pegged it......the country is PC to a fault....

Quite simply.......

Fellows, you can't lock everyone up. We simply don't have the jail space.

Where was the outrage when Mary Winkler got 231 days for shooting her husband in the back while he slept in their bed?

Why is dog fighting more contemptuous than murder?

beemanbeme · « **Reply #26 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:02:29 AM »

I posted somewhere that rarely do the dogs fight to the death. Simply stated, the owners have too much money and time invested in the dogs to let that happen. Like trained prize fighters, they're patched up to fight again. Dave, I think you've been reading too much PETA propaganda.

I haven't been following the news of this too closely as I knew it was gonna be a wild distortion of misinformation but where did the "dog stomping and electrocution" come from? Was it from some of his cronies that are ratting him out to save their asses? Or was it some sort of wild PETA speculations?

Ace, you and GB are making the most real world sense. Unfortunately, there are 13+ million cliff dwellers in NYC that get their info from Oprah and Fat A** Rosy and believe the dog whisperer can talk to animals.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #27 on:** August 25, 2007, 06:11:02 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 25, 2007, 05:02:29 AM

Dave, I think you've been reading too much PETA propaganda.

I haven't been following the news of this too closely.........

Beeman,

Your absolutely right! You have not been following the news closely at all. I don't make this stuff up and I don't follow PETA on anything. Read this link from the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071701393.html and then you will see where these "rumors" come from.

Actually, I grow tired of being put into a defensive position. If you were to bother at all to actually read what I have posted, and actually think (you know, independent thinking) of what I have posted, what I have stated is that I do NOT agree with the stomping to death of the dogs, NOR do I agree with the dousing of water on dogs and hooking them up to an electrical source and flipping the switch.

You see, it's the MANNER of the killing of the animal that I strongly disagree with. The MANNER is cruel and unusual. THINK about what effort goes into electrocuting a dog!!! That is one sick individual who does that! I mean come on! A 44 cartridge is a lot less effort!

Answer this question: If you had to choose...would you rather (a) be stomped to death or (b) have concrete tied to your foot and tossed overboard? These are you only 2 choices.

Don't tell me about this PETA reading crap to justify your thinking. Here's an idea....read what I have actually posted...don't add words into it....critically think about what I have said, then draw your own conclusions. But don't just chime in and jump on the band wagon.

Oh, and try reading the news before you spout off what you do not know.

Gheeezzz.

Dave

Graybeard · « **Reply #28 on:** August 25, 2007, 06:25:55 AM »

I'm not sure it would matter if those are the only two choices. If the head was stomped and brain damaged enough that would acutually be quicker and less painful. Are you for some reason operating under the assumption drowning is a painless and fun way to go? It's NOT. It's not quick it's not painless and it's a very agonizing way to go. Electrocution is far less painful and more civilized. Hey it's even used by society to rid itself of criminals from time to time. Drowning has never been however other than at the Salem Witch trials.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #29 on:** August 25, 2007, 04:36:27 PM »

Dave, I am drawing my information from knowing several folks in Tenn and Okla that owned, bred and fought dogs. Contrary to popular belief, non of them drooled when they talked and non of them were married to their sisters. Their dogs were cared for in a much more lavish manner than most pets I see. They culled their dogs as any honest breeder does. But they did it in as humane a manner as possible. I am sure the idea of stomping a dog to death or electrocuting it would be as repugnant to them as it is to me.
My point is that sort of actions are not the signs of a dog fighter but of a very sick person. I wasn't able to pull up your link to the Wash Post. When I lived in DC, I didn't read it then either.