Author Topic: I just wanted to comment on small caliber rifles... (Read 4732 times)

cankiller · « **Reply #30 on:** September 04, 2007, 05:23:52 PM »

Well for this season a 204 is all i have. I had a 300 wsm but some sorry piece of trash stole it and all i have is a 204 unless i can come up with the money for a 12ga . If not do you think it would be better to shoot for the neck instead of the head.

Graybeard · « **Reply #31 on:** September 04, 2007, 05:29:10 PM »

If it was all "I" had I'd likely skip the season but then that's me and clearly that's NOT what you want to hear. Since I've had over 50 seasons already I guess it's easier for me to say I'd skip one.

But as a direct answer to the question I think if I had to use it I'd use ONLY the 40 grain bullets and try to put that bullet just very barely behind the head where the head and neck join at the base of skull. I think that would give the largest margin for error you can expect from the round. I'd wanna be real close personally to make such a shot. Definitely inside 100 yards and better still inside 50 yards. Baring that I'd personally just not pull the trigger.

If the shot were perfectly broadside and inside 100 yards with absolutely nothing but air between you and the deer a mid lung shot would almost for sure kill the deer but likely leave little to no blood trail so you better hope one is not needed.

cankiller · « **Reply #32 on:** September 04, 2007, 05:44:58 PM »

thanks for the info I'm usually in shoot gun range from them so i don't think that will be a problem

303Guy · « **Reply #33 on:** September 05, 2007, 10:30:33 PM »

Quote from: NONYA on August 30, 2007, 07:32:31 PM

Its very common,imo its akin to (censored word) envy,the mag haters refuse to use them for whatever reason but they despise those of us who choose to and ridicule us for our longer more powerful weapon.Everyone i hunt with carrys one except for my friends wife who shoots a .270,around here they are the standard and I never hear them slammed except for here in the internet "expert" forums.

I don't mind the power and range of a magnum rifle - I'm just scared S###less of them!

They're a bit noisy too. It's just that I have a leaning toward lightweight, mild recoiling and modest report rifles. You can't get that with a magnum, that's all.

Regards
303Guy

NONYA · « **Reply #34 on:** September 05, 2007, 11:36:07 PM »

My 7 mag does 2 of the three,its not exactly lightweight.

dw06 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 06, 2007, 04:03:48 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on September 04, 2007, 10:51:27 AM

Quote from: cankiller on September 04, 2007, 10:42:05 AM
their is always a head shot

NOT if you are a knowledgeable and/or caring hunter. The head offers a very tiny target and one this is in almost constant motion. The head shot is not as so many say a clean kill or clean miss. There is a lot of area on that head that is NOT a clean kill and will result in a long lingering and painful death for game long gone from you with no chance of recovery.

Other than when the range is extremely short and you are 100% certain of your shot placement should a head shot ever be taken.

Very well said.I agree 100%.I've had to shoot 3 deer while hunting that someone tried a head shot,one came running over the ridge and fell down couldn't get up so kept kicking his feet to scoot along on its side.Someone was shooting for betwwen the eyes and missed took out eye and part of head.I finished it off and waited for the shooter but they never showed so I tagged it so it didn't go wasted.That poor deer ran a long ways,as it was 45 mins or so between the last shot I heard and when I saw it,may have even been longer as maybe that was not the shooter noway to know.
Also finished a couple with lower jaws blown off,not a purdy site.cankiller,a better option would be to borrow a rifle from a hunting buddy for this season.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #36 on:** September 06, 2007, 04:27:42 AM »

magnum , we should just do away with the word as related to guns , it about as useful as the ---- on a boar hog !
head shots up close work well for me , none run off so far ! as far as getting away in other post well i have seen deer run off with lungs destroyed , heart destroyed and other shots that should have put them down , hey chickens run around with the head cut off , muscles do odd things now don't they ! besides if it was required that the deer drop grave yard dead at the shot then bow season would never open ! i say if you limit yourself to not taking head or any other shot thats great but please refrain from forcing the rest of to hunt by the limitations you place on your self !
besides many preach head shots on boar do ethics apply different to different animals now ?
some of ya'll may loose sleep over this , but when hunting deer with dogs and shot gun most i know aim at the nose of a running deer , the desired head shot , but if you miss you either get the neck or shoulder area !

IOWA DON · « **Reply #37 on:** September 06, 2007, 07:17:47 AM »

SHOOTALL - I noticed the words at the bottom of your post "Don't be afraid to adjust your sight". My .338-.378 Wea hit about 3 inches to the right at 600 yards a few weeks ago. I was reluctant to make a correction as I thought there may have been a slight wind downrange, although it was still at the bench. A week ago or so I shot it at 200 yards and it was hitting about 1 inch to the right. Sometimes when I make a small adjustment to a scope the point of impact doesn't go where it is supposed to. Anyway, my plan is to put the gun in a solid mount and have the scope aimed at a target 30 yards away, and make the adjustments and visually verify the crosshairs move 1/2 moa to the right with no vertical movement. Good motto. ---- Also, I take head shots on squirrels and rabbits but have been reluctant to do so on deer. A buddy shot a doe antelope in the brain one time. When we cut it up it appeared the animal had not bled out like it would have from a lung shot. The meat was oozing blood. I did end up head shooting a deer last winter with a 20-gauge slug. All I could see of it was the head and it was looking directly at me from about 10 yards away. It was not too difficult to put the slug between the nostrils since I had a rest. The deer had an exit hole comming out the back of its head and both eyes bulged out. It certainly did not feel a thing. However, I think I should probably should have waited for a lung shot.

dw06 · « **Reply #38 on:** September 06, 2007, 08:22:19 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on September 06, 2007, 04:27:42 AM

as far as getting away in other post well i have seen deer run off with lungs destroyed , heart destroyed and other shots that should have put them down , hey chickens run around with the head cut off , muscles do odd things now don't they ! besides if it was required that the deer drop grave yard dead at the shot then bow season would never open ! i say if you limit yourself to not taking head or any other shot thats great but please refrain from forcing the rest of to hunt by the limitations you place on your self !

You haven't seen a deer run very far if indeed its lungs or heart were destroyed,kind of impossible isn't it?I've shot a bunch and they hardly make it 50 yards.Who said anything about forcing limitations on anybody?I've taken head shots,but they were short range and thats what some have suggested keep the range short.
The point I made in my post was 2,first piss poor shooting 2nd they were not clean kill or miss like so many believe.Don't know about you but if you spend a day or two before gun season at the local range an see how a bunch of the expert cool hand lukes shoot even using a bench,heck more than half shouldn't even think of shooting at a deer broadside !

Graybeard · « **Reply #39 on:** September 06, 2007, 10:30:50 AM »

Quote

besides many preach head shots on boar do ethics apply different to different animals now ?

Well yeah it is a "situational" thing in this case. The head of a deer is rather small compared to body size and of a hog quite large in comparison. Most recommend the head/neck shot on hogs of much size due to the tough gristle plate that tends to stop many bullets or at least reduce their effectiveness. But that really applies primarily to hogs a LOT larger than those most of us see/kill. Personally I do look at the head shot quite differently on a hog than a deer and yup squirrel head shots are the norm.

On the subject of lung/heart shot deer and how far they run: There is no real standard here from my experience. Some very few drop to the shot but most by far run some distance. The "how far" of that run is as variable as the differences in the critters. I've had a few go way further than you'd think possible yet the autopsy did reveal those lungs were jelly. At any given time an animal's body has adequate oxygen to keep the brain functioning for a few seconds and a deer can cover a LOT of ground in a few seconds. I've seen the number 17 seconds tossed around a bit but personally I don't think I've ever seen one on it's feet nearly that long but for sure 5 to 10 seconds is easily do able and I have seen runs last that long. Still I do agree most pile up inside 100 yards but they don't all even with lungs turned to jelly. I don't generally shoot for the heart but rather for the lungs so have less experience with heart shots but those I have made heart shots on tended to run a bit farther on average than the lung shot ones but again the number is much lower so likely has no statistical validity.

NONYA · « **Reply #40 on:** September 06, 2007, 10:39:41 AM »

My heart/lung shot game run an average of 100 yards,my head shot game run an average of 1 yard,Its usually 1 yard straight up in the air.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #41 on:** September 07, 2007, 07:06:03 AM »

my point with the heart/lung shot is there is very little difference than a head shot ! the average kill zone on the heart lung area is at best 6 inches on a avg. white tailed deer and the head ain't that much smaller depending on angle , anyway a bad shot on either will allow the critter to take off ! also my shots have been close to 50 or less yards as i mentioned .
I agree we never know what reaction a critter will display when shot and to even suggest a 100% distance would be conjecture !
any way i take the shot i get if i feel i can make it i suggest all do the same !

rbergum95 · « **Reply #42 on:** September 08, 2007, 03:44:29 PM »

in a recent study 10 deer were aked the following 2 questions:

what caliber rifle woul you rather be shot with?

where on your anatomy would you rather be shot?

out of all 10 deer queried the answer to both questions was?

I WOULD RATHER NOT BE SHOT AT ALL!

point being, deer dont care where or with what they are shot with, if you are comfortable with the firearm you are carrying, accurate with the rifle you are carrying, and most of all responsible with the rifle you are carrying, take any shot you KNOW you can make. no one here or anywhere else can make the decisions for you. i have taken deer with more than a few small calibers with all kind of shot placements, not once did a deer get away, nor go more than 100 yards after the shot. take the shot you have.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #43 on:** September 09, 2007, 07:22:07 AM »

I would like to weigh in on this 100 yard thing. I've never TIMED how long it took a deer to die after I've shot it, nor have I paced it off as far as how far it ran but if you shoot a deer in Wyoming and it runs 100 yards you can often see it. You shoot a deer in Tennessee (or Mississippi) along the Mississippi River bottoms and it runs 100 yards, you may need a tracking hound and the 2nd Marine Div. to find it. So when a fellow sez a deer will ONLY run 100 yards, a 100 yards can be a relative thing.
I shot a (1) deer with a 12ga shotgun slug and blew the breast bone loose from the ribs. With his heart and one lung hanging outside his body, that deer ran thru a canebrake spraying blood waist high and traveled what I figure was over 100 yards before another hunter put him down. The other hunter said he was still carrying the mail when he went by him.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #44 on:** September 09, 2007, 07:31:00 AM »

exactly ! nothing is exact !

DDelle338 · « **Reply #45 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:03:56 AM »

I have to agree about situations may dictate what shot you have available at a given time. But don't agree with the taking of head shots. If you can't wait for a better shot, maybe you should wait for another chance at another time. The difference between the killing zones of the head and the heart/lung area are ALOT different. The heart/lung area is much larger than the head. But if you happen to miss high or low, the deer has a good chance of surviving if he has the time to heal. To far to the front, the same thing. I've seen three legged deer that have survived several hunting seasons. The brain (humane kill zone) is very small. If you don't hit the brain, chances are you will take off the snout, jaw, or open the neck/throat area. The deer will die a very slow miserable death. I have read some of the debates about who is trying to tell whom what ethics are exactly, I won't get into that. But will say that I FEEL that everyone's should include doing what is right. And that should include making sure that you have the best opportunity for the most humane kill. Period. I feel a whole lot better about telling the story of the deer that saw me, stood there completely still for an eternity, then actually backed away from me offering nothing more than a direct head shot that I didn't take, than I would feel about bragging to my buddies that I blew the darn face off a deer that got away. To each his own. But you should know what's right without having to try and justify it. And marksmanship has nothing to do with it. IMO

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #46 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:56:59 PM »

ETHICS aside did I understand that its better to shoot a leg or other part off than a jaw or nose or such ? and marksmanship has nothing to do with it ?
I must say if you know the heart lung area , you should be able to identify the location of the brain and how to shoot for it ! I would have hoped marksmanship would have been considered second only to shot placement with reguard to humane kills !but who am I !

DDelle338 · « **Reply #47 on:** September 12, 2007, 01:59:54 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on September 11, 2007, 12:56:59 PM

ETHICS aside did I understand that its better to shoot a leg or other part off than a jaw or nose or such ? and marksmanship has nothing to do with it ?
I must say if you know the heart lung area , you should be able to identify the location of the brain and how to shoot for it ! I would have hoped marksmanship would have been considered second only to shot placement with reguard to humane kills !but who am I !

Marksmanship is key to shot placement! I must have missed the target by the wording. Sorry.
What I meant by the marksmanship comment was that there are those that say that they are good shots so they know they can hit what they are aiming at. Making it perfectly fine for them to attempt the head shot. I have spent allot of time at the range with these guys that say these things. Watching them try to keep their bullets in the 6" circular area of their targets at 100yds off the bench. Are they good shots? Better than some, yes. But not as good as most. I like to shoot at clay pigeons hanging on the target stands at 100yds off-hand and at 200yds leaning against a support and sitting while getting tuned up for the season. Am I good enough? I think I am. But I still don’t take the head shots. I won’t chance the movement of the deer’s head or the little branch I didn’t see through the scope. Most people sight in for 1-2” high at 100yds. Do they know where it will be at 50yds? Off by 1-4”? How big is the brain area? 3”? I am not telling anyone not to take the shot. Do as you see fit. Just don’t say that it is ethical, because it is not.
As for what I meant about it being better hitting a leg or such is that IF, by some chance you miss the vitals and hit an area (not gut) by mistake. It would be better than taking off the face. Yes. Chances are much better of actualy making a good killing shot at the much larger target of the vitals.
Have a fine day.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #48 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:52:45 AM »

I will indeed take the shot i know I can make ! for it is ETHICAL ! as far as your buddies if they can't get better groups (4inches ) from a rest at 100 yards I would find it calling them good shots , better than most well somewhat un-ethical ! that is if they are using a modern bolt gun or equal ! to take an ethical shot you should know where your gun shoots at any range you intend to shoot at ! i would agree if you sight your gun at 100 yds and never shoot it at any other range it would not be ethical to shoot where you have no experince with the gun ! It is not my intent to tick you or anyone else off ! but for those of us that visit a range more than a couple times a year and shoot enough to feel both ethical and confident with our shooting i find it annoying to keep getting this holier than I attitude from others who for what ever reason have not achieved a level of skill with their rifle and feel the need to brow beat others to accept their ideas !
I am lucky , we shoot clay targets at 500 yds , the sporting clays course is next door so we get free clays ! once sighted in we have little trouble hitting them ! we often let our guns cool and see what we do with a cold bbl. to add spice we throw in a wager on the first shot sometimes ! we feel if you have a chance to lose $$$$$$$$$ you will be careful with your shot ! which brings up the other side of ethics , if the shot is not one you can make don't shoot , i would not attempt a head shot much past 75 yds and not in a stiff wind !

NONYA · « **Reply #49 on:** September 12, 2007, 05:52:10 AM »

If I dont leave a shooting session with my goto Bg rifle without shooting a 3 shot group under 1.5 " there is a problem and i will keep shooting till I do before Ill take that rifle into the field.I shot a 5/8" group last week with a lower end scope,it isnt that hard,IF you care.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #50 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:08:51 AM »

Quote from: NONYA on September 06, 2007, 10:39:41 AM

,my head shot game run an average of 1 yard,Its usually 1 yard straight up in the air.

Do you measure that with a range finder?

NONYA · « **Reply #51 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:34:54 AM »

I use Kentucky windage for that one!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #52 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:37:32 AM »

Like every deer that is shot in the lungs drops graveyard dead !

Graybeard · « **Reply #53 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:43:02 AM »

Quote

Like every deer that is shot in the lungs drops graveyard dead !

They do! Somewhere within 100-150 yards of you pretty much every time.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #54 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:51:17 AM »

some a bit farther ! no shot will drop um dead in their tracks 100% of the time ! the head shot comes as close as any , so if it is close i use it , some of the places we hunt 100 yards would put the deer on land we are not allowed to hunt , track or go on for any reason ! crazy world sometimes !

dw06 · « **Reply #55 on:** September 12, 2007, 10:58:17 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on September 12, 2007, 04:52:45 AM

if the shot is not one you can make don't shoot , i would not attempt a head shot much past 75 yds and not in a stiff wind !

My point exactly,so I agree with you.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #56 on:** September 12, 2007, 11:05:25 AM »

once heard some guy say" a mans got to know his limitations" ! that's why ethics are different for each of us !

beemanbeme · « **Reply #57 on:** September 13, 2007, 04:10:19 AM »

No, I think ethics are a pretty constant thing. Whether or how much a fellow chooses to ignore them is what varies. A humane kill is what we're looking for.
A properly equipped fellow that practices at distance year round may be a more ethical hunter at 400 or 500 yards than some guy that drags old Trusty Rusty out of the closet the night before the season opens --"Dang, I thought I had more than 7 bullets left. Oh well, I don't need no sighters."-- is at 100 yards. The same deal with the "specialty" shots, head, neck, ear hole, eye.
Where the ethics comes in is regardless of what sort of shot your make or how the deer reacts or even doesn't react, you have to go to that spot and make a honest and determined effort to see if you hit the deer and to find the deer. Often, only you will know if your effort was indeed honest and determined or if an effort was even made. And that, my friends, is ethics. And it is not a situational thing.

NONYA · « **Reply #58 on:** September 13, 2007, 04:16:56 AM »

Bla bla bla...go preach ethics in church,we are out there to kill game,how we choose to do it depends totally on our SKILLS and our personal preference,and it truly only matters how we feel about it,your opinion of how its done means less than nothing to me.I take long range shots even when i could possibly get closer,I shoot deer in the head,I spotlight varmints and I enjoy the hell out of it,all of these are considered unethical by those who dont or cant do them.Laws are constant,ethics are completly based on personal opinion.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #59 on:** September 13, 2007, 04:28:10 AM »

seems like 2 questions of ethics , one have you paid the dues to be able to make the shot and second to look for the animal !
like i said ethics is different for different people , if you insist i accept your ethics then i would have none ! that is why trying to pass laws that force morals and ethics on people often fail , where as laws that make sense are most often followed !
I often feel that those that try to inflict their morals and ethics on others must have done something they have a difficult time living with and don't want anyone else to do it , maybe in fear the others won't have a problem with it !
I have no ethical or moral problems with my 2506 or any shot i have taken with it !