Author Topic: I just wanted to comment on small caliber rifles... (Read 4736 times)

jneilson · « **on:** August 26, 2007, 03:06:44 PM »

If you know how to shoot the caliber really doesn't matter... If you don't know how to shoot the caliber really doesn't matter...

coyotejoe · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2007, 09:17:12 PM »

That is a true ism, but only part of the story. You also have to understand the limitations of your caliber of choice and be willing and able to accept and work within those limitations. For example, on a perfect broadside shot at reasonable range one can place a .22LR through the heart and drop a deer or elk just as dead as with the most powerful magnum. But step up to a .223 and one can place that bullet through the heart at three times the range. Step up again to a .243 and one can take some angles that would not be possible with the .223 and expand the target area to include the lungs. Step up again to a .308 and you can make a killing shot on deer from about any angle. But again, you have to be able to place your bullets where they count. A more powerful, flatter shooting rifle, firing tougher bullets with greater penetration does allow one to place shots perfectly where a lesser rifle might fail. But you're quite right that all will work if used within their limitations.
I'm quite happy with the .243 on deer and even elk, but I take only broadside, frontal or slightly angled away shots on standing targets. I know that with the .243 I have to pass up some angles I might have taken with a more powerful rifle. Thus I now shoot a 6.5x55 and realize with that choice I have to pass up some long shots I might have taken with some super magnum. But they're dang few and for the shots I do take my 6.5 doesn't rip the shoulder off either myself nor the elk!

rickt300 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2007, 03:27:51 AM »

The small calibers do limit you to taking those perfectly posed shots even on deer. And it's too bad that at least half the shot angles you get are not suited to the 243 and it's ilk.

hunter5325 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2007, 06:36:19 AM »

I don't know about that, I'd take just about any angle to the vitals on deer sized critters with my 25-06 stoked w/ 100gr XLC's @ 3400fps. This load has smashed through both shoulders and exited on a 300lb blackie. Brett

tuck2 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2007, 06:56:43 AM »

Shooting premium bullets like the Barnes triple shock, Barnes X copper or Nosler Partition bullets will give better results in the small caliber rifles than some of the copper jacket lead bullets. But where the bullet hits the game and at what angle will determine if you get a clean kill.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2007, 07:12:47 AM »

Yup! That's why they recommend that you cull Cape Buffalo with a .220 Swift 'cause it ain't the calibre, it's where you stick 'em. And, of course, every ones heard that the Inuits kill polar bear with .223's so on your next hunt with Phil Shoemaker, tell him you're gonna hunt grizzlies with a .223. I'm sure he'll be all over that.

It bears repeating: when I was bass fishing, I learned to rig for the biggest fish I hoped to catch, in the worst possible conditions I might encounter.
If I'm going up to the back pasture at sundown to look over the several deer that come out to browse each evening and one doesn't give me a Christmas card pose so I can use my .223, I go back to the house and try again tomorrow. Same deal if I'm looking over the migration in the Big Horns. I look over 25 or 30 or more cows and wait for one to give me an easy shot. If none do, I try again tomorrow and the next day.
If I'm on vacation, a week or ten days at the most, and I don't know about the pasture and I've missed the migration, or it hasn't started, I certainly don't want to be messing around with some popgun. I want a rifle that will let me take advantage of any fleeting opportunity.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2007, 07:36:10 AM »

saying if you know how to shoot the cal. doesn't matter is like saying if you know how to make love the woman doesn't matter !
I disagree for obvious reasons !
same with the gun , some just plain match up better !

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2007, 06:29:43 PM »

You have to match the bullet to the game with the small calibers...A Triple shock...Partition..Accubond...Fusion bonded...North Fork..TBBC's...and Grand Slams will and a few others will out penetrate any cup & core bullet to reach the vitals on a white tail deer...And if the range is further away...say 400 yards...even a Ballistic tip in 243 & up will expand readily and yet still hold together unless your taking shoulder shots... A bigger caliber and heavier bullet isn't a license to take iffy shots...and it always seems like some folks thinks it is..I won't take raking shots with a 243 at long yardage...but I sure as heck don't have to have that Christmas card perfect shot either...A 223...well...I'll wait till I have a broadside or clear angling away shot within range...

Mac

beemanbeme · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2007, 05:03:23 AM »

Sorry, IMO, there ain't no magic bullets. That's the problem. Too much hype about some boutique bullet that will kill a deer at any angle with any sort of rifle and, of course, you can drop down several weight classes so you can drive your bullets really, really fast. Snake oil! That's what got the magnums in trouble.
Unless they have repealed the laws of physics, a heavier bullet WILL allow you to take an angling shot that should be unthinkable with a lesser bullet and rifle.
While they tout the 6.5 Swede and 7x57 as adequate for all large non-dangerous game, look at the bullets that built their reputation. Long, heavy projectiles with a lot of lead showing on the tip traveling at fairly sedate velocities.
Perhaps if they were to come out with a 140gr, say, Hot Core bullet for the .243 at around 2800fps, we wouldn't have these long discussions about how marginal it was as a deer rifle.
FWIW, I've never shot a deer at 400 yards. Here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, our deer are so small, I don't know that you could see one at 400 yards.

DDelle338 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:54:09 AM »

FWIW, I've never shot a deer at 400 yards. Here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, our deer are so small, I don't know that you could see one at 400 yards.

See,,,, That's where you're missing out. You need a .223 shootin 70gr. partitions wearing a 36X target scope.

That way you'll always be able to kill them dead.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2007, 08:38:36 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 30, 2007, 05:03:23 AM

Sorry, IMO, there ain't no magic bullets. That's the problem. Too much hype about some boutique bullet that will kill a deer at any angle with any sort of rifle and, of course, you can drop down several weight classes so you can drive your bullets really, really fast. Snake oil! That's what got the magnums in trouble.
Unless they have repealed the laws of physics, a heavier bullet WILL allow you to take an angling shot that should be unthinkable with a lesser bullet and rifle.
While they tout the 6.5 Swede and 7x57 as adequate for all large non-dangerous game, look at the bullets that built their reputation. Long, heavy projectiles with a lot of lead showing on the tip traveling at fairly sedate velocities.
Perhaps if they were to come out with a 140gr, say, Hot Core bullet for the .243 at around 2800fps, we wouldn't have these long discussions about how marginal it was as a deer rifle.
FWIW, I've never shot a deer at 400 yards. Here in Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, our deer are so small, I don't know that you could see one at 400 yards.

I am not saying anything about any magic bullet...Only that with the premium bullets they will hold together and penetrate better than any cup & core bullet will...and yes...if you are going to go the laws of Physics route...read up on the one that talks about bodies in motion...when a cup & core bullet comes apart like they most always do..the forward momentum is halted or stopped...that is part of the laws of physics too...Most folks who swear by the old long & slow bullets don't like any type of long range hunting...they don't see a need for it...That's fine for them...but not for many others...Sure the old favorites kill......but....so too will those premium bullets...provided they are utilized correctly..Just because a person uses premiums in any caliber...doesn't mean they have a license for sloppy shots either...B.T.W.there is nothing wrong with the magnum rifles...only those who don't use them appropriately...and this includes using a bullet that will hold together as it should...

Mac

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2007, 10:12:50 AM »

you have to wonder how deer got killed before high dollar bullets and mag. rifles came out !

Lone Star · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2007, 02:26:51 PM »

Quote

you have to wonder how deer got killed before high dollar bullets and mag. rifles came out !

An awful lot were wounded and lost - just like today. And they were not taken at ranges more common today either - for those hunters who have been asleep for the past fifty years - news flash: hunting conditions have changed markedly in many parts of the country....

It is a fact that premium bullets can give the hunter an edge over many low-tech bullets - that is why Nosler has remained in business for 60 years. It is not just Madison Avenue hype, although the non-thinking may believe so. Some people just can't accept that many things are better today than they were 50 years ago.

.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2007, 04:44:01 PM »

Lone Star, you may be right that game is being shot at at longer ranges today than 50 years ago (I was around then) but I'm not so sure that hunting conditions have changed, merely the shooter's ability to hunt.
Mac, I'm sure you remember some of the extravagant claims for the magnums when they first came into vogue: "hit a deer in the leg and the kenetic energy will explode his heart". etc. You hear some pretty far fetched claims for bullets also. Properly used, a magmum was an advance. Just like some of the bullets today. But to my way of thinking, it isn't an advance to take a small for calibre bullet and jack it up to some boyhowdylookwhaticando velocity and when it explodes on the side of an animal start screaming bullet failure. Call it what it is: shooter stupidity.
And you are wrong about a cup and core bullet. If the jacket seperates things don't come to a halt. In truth, the jacket is merely a sabot to keep the lead core from deforming and enabling the unit to be driven at a higher velocity. If the jacket peels away, the lead core continues on.
And you are right, I am not interested in shooting at game at long ranges. It's not my cup of tea.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:15:44 PM »

Quote

And you are wrong about a cup and core bullet. If the jacket seperates things don't come to a halt. In truth, the jacket is merely a sabot to keep the lead core from deforming and enabling the unit to be driven at a higher velocity. If the jacket peels away, the lead core continues on.

Sorry Bro...I'm not wrong in the least...when the jacket separates...neither the lead core or the jacket will penetrate the animal completely...the wound channel is altered and both usually stop short of the other side of the animal...if it even makes it to the other side... The " jacket" was devised to be able to shoot at higher velocities without severe leading in barrels...and there has been many different types of jacket material since it's introduction...

Quote

it isn't an advance to take a small for calibre bullet and jack it up to some boyhowdylookwhaticando velocity and when it explodes on the side of an animal start screaming bullet failure.

Your right..ergo...this is the reason for the premium bullets...so such catastrophic failures don't occur...Not every body shoots & hunts like you do...nor do they feel the same...Magnums are here to stay...just as the premium bullets that are designed to be shot at higher velocities...There will always be folks like yourself that have no use for them...but I can honestly tell you there are just as many folks like myself that do...I don't have a problem with what you use...Why do you have a problem with what I do? I've never lost a deer in all of my years when using a premium bullet...I can't say that for standard cup & core bullets...

Mac

NONYA · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2007, 07:32:31 PM »

Its very common,imo its akin to (censored word) envy,the mag haters refuse to use them for whatever reason but they despise those of us who choose to and ridicule us for our longer more powerful weapon.Everyone i hunt with carrys one except for my friends wife who shoots a .270,around here they are the standard and I never hear them slammed except for here in the internet "expert" forums.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2007, 01:45:38 AM »

lone star , sure there have been improvements no doubt , but like everything in life some new bullets were good , some hype !
as far as hunting changing , i don't think so ! i think the gun press has conditioned us to NEED the next new product and with out reason elevate the critter we hunt to a higher level of ability to justify the purchase ! ( it may work on your wife , and i may use it , but its a dog and pony show at best ) ! i feel we today don't wish to hunt as much as we want to shoot , that fine ! but the hunting has not changed , the tools have and the way we hunt has ! we seem to picture that " out west hunt with the need to shoot 600 yard shots , 50 years ago it could be done , but 50 years ago most enjoyed the 2 week hunt ! with todays demands and cost of a hunt , many hunters feel the need to push the shot or they will have spent alot of $$$$ for no return ! alot can make the shot so i see no problem other than our insistence on not calling it like it is a choice on our part as to how we hunt !
now , magnums ! i for one think most have no idea what they are or what they are supposed to do !
some say long range , a .458 win. mag is used at a 100 yards or less - made to penetrate !
a .375 H&H mag can penetrate up close on dangerous game but also with the right load can go the distance .
some say it has to have a belt ! some say it has to up the performance of an existing round , say the .300 win. mag. over the 30-06 , if that was true then the 30-06 should be a mag. as it improved the 30-03 round !
so in reality today magnum is of little importance as a description of a rifle little more than hype !
to put this in perspective - a 2506 and a 2506 short mag . have the same ballistics , i have a box stock rem. 700 - 2506 that is 25 years old that will put my hand loads in a 1/2 inch group at 100 yards all day long , telling me the short mag. is more accurate is pure BS ! to be honest i hunt with at least 6 men with 2506's and all shoot great , i have one buddy with a 2506 short mag. and it shoots good also , but his cost per shot is more with factory loads ! yet compare the 243 vs 243SM and its a different story ! all i can say is pick the rifle / bullet combo that will get the job done and forget the BS !

beemanbeme · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2007, 07:10:49 AM »

Mac, just a little FYI, I've probably shot as many magnums as you. I just don't believe in magic rifles nor magic bullets. I believe in stalking close, using enough gun and placing a proper bullet in a lethal spot.

IOWA DON · « **Reply #18 on:** September 01, 2007, 12:48:42 PM »

Last winter and the winter before, I shot some whitetail does with my 6mm-06. The load was 70-grain Nosler Balistic Tip (varmint) bullets at 3,900 + feet per second. I eventually found all I shot, 10 or so. However, some ran 50 to 100 yards and there were no exit holes to speak of and no blood trails. It was easier to find them this winter as there was snow on the ground. The previous winter it was bare ground. This winter I plan on using my 7MM STW instead, with 140-grain Nosler Balistic Tips. Previous experience shooting a number of antelope with that calibers indicates that deer should not run as far. However, there will probably be some exceptions. A deer I shot through the lungs with my .338-.378 at around 400 yards ran 200 yards before falling.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 01, 2007, 07:46:08 PM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 31, 2007, 07:10:49 AM

Mac, just a little FYI, I've probably shot as many magnums as you. I just don't believe in magic rifles nor magic bullets. I believe in stalking close, using enough gun and placing a proper bullet in a lethal spot.

So do I...but...I am a pessimistic optimist...I plan for the worst...but hope for the best... and if the closest I can get is 400 yards or more...and I have had this happen...I want to know that I will have the best bullet available to me at that distance...Just as I want the best bullet in my rifle if I jump a buck in dense cover up close...You can't get that with a standard cup & core bullet...it doesn't work out for the best all the time...I won't walk away from a shot I know I can make & practice for unless conditions aren't right...When I want to get close enough to count their eye lashes...I am not carrying a rifle...but either my long bow...or my recurve...I enjoy both methods of hunting immensely ..and I derive equal satisfaction from both...Once again...I don't believe in magic bullets either...only those that work...in all situations...with all calibers... As too magic rifles...Nope...there is no such thing...You either have 1 that will shoot accurately...or IMHO...you have a new fence post...It doesn't take a magnum rifle to kill a deer...even at 400 yards..but those who choose to use a magnum rifle...should use the appropriate bullets for the job at hand...and know their ballistics of their chosen round..

Mac

flintlock · « **Reply #20 on:** September 02, 2007, 03:16:42 PM »

Iowa Dan...Its not a good idea to shoot deer with varmint bullets, especially when pushing them even faster than they are made for...You are lucky you did find them all...Now if you were to push a 100gr Nosler Partition, or a 95 gr Sciorrico or one of the Barnes all coppers at about 3500fps, you would have a pretty good long range round.

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2007, 05:48:23 AM »

Quote from: NONYA on August 30, 2007, 07:32:31 PM

Its very common,imo its akin to (censored word) envy,the mag haters refuse to use them for whatever reason but they despise those of us who choose to and ridicule us for our longer more powerful weapon.Everyone i hunt with carrys one except for my friends wife who shoots a .270,around here they are the standard and I never hear them slammed except for here in the internet "expert" forums.

Very true & equally true that this mag bashing by those that do their shooting from a keyboard will continue & no facts presented to them will change that because their "armchair" opinions overrule any facts in the matter in their mind only.

IOWA DON · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2007, 11:43:20 AM »

flintlock - The barrel has a slow twist. I tried some good deer bullets and none would shoot good. In fact, they all shot really bad. I have shot quite a few antelope (20 or so, mostly does) with 120-grain Hornaday hollow points out of a 7MM STW at about 3,650 fps. The rifle had a 1-in12 twist and bullets went through the antelope and left 1-1/2 inch exit holes. One antelope (a big buck) ran about 50 yards, but the others never made it more than 10 feet. But then, a 7MM STW has a lot more energy and antelope are smaller than Iowa deer.

flintlock · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2007, 12:18:33 PM »

Iowa Dan...Point being, its not a good setup for deer, nothing wrong with a .243 for deer, just need to use the proper bullets...
I have a .40 caliber flintlock, but I don't use it for deer, I take the .54...

TNrifleman · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2007, 01:04:17 PM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on August 27, 2007, 07:12:47 AM

Yup! That's why they recommend that you cull Cape Buffalo with a .220 Swift 'cause it ain't the calibre, it's where you stick 'em. And, of course, every ones heard that the Inuits kill polar bear with .223's so on your next hunt with Phil Shoemaker, tell him you're gonna hunt grizzlies with a .223. I'm sure he'll be all over that.
It bears repeating: when I was bass fishing, I learned to rig for the biggest fish I hoped to catch, in the worst possible conditions I might encounter.
If I'm going up to the back pasture at sundown to look over the several deer that come out to browse each evening and one doesn't give me a Christmas card pose so I can use my .223, I go back to the house and try again tomorrow. Same deal if I'm looking over the migration in the Big Horns. I look over 25 or 30 or more cows and wait for one to give me an easy shot. If none do, I try again tomorrow and the next day.
If I'm on vacation, a week or ten days at the most, and I don't know about the pasture and I've missed the migration, or it hasn't started, I certainly don't want to be messing around with some popgun. I want a rifle that will let me take advantage of any fleeting opportunity.

Very well said!

cankiller · « **Reply #25 on:** September 04, 2007, 10:42:05 AM »

their is always a head shot

Graybeard · « **Reply #26 on:** September 04, 2007, 10:51:27 AM »

Quote from: cankiller on September 04, 2007, 10:42:05 AM

their is always a head shot

NOT if you are a knowledgeable and/or caring hunter. The head offers a very tiny target and one this is in almost constant motion. The head shot is not as so many say a clean kill or clean miss. There is a lot of area on that head that is NOT a clean kill and will result in a long lingering and painful death for game long gone from you with no chance of recovery.

Other than when the range is extremely short and you are 100% certain of your shot placement should a head shot ever be taken.

cankiller · « **Reply #27 on:** September 04, 2007, 11:32:20 AM »

well do you think a bullet from a 204 would make it to the vittles of a deer

NONYA · « **Reply #28 on:** September 04, 2007, 01:19:39 PM »

I headshoot a few does every season,I try to take them through the back of the skull right where the spine attaches and i do keep my head shots under 200 yards whenever possible.

Graybeard · « **Reply #29 on:** September 04, 2007, 05:08:39 PM »

Quote

well do you think a bullet from a 204 would make it to the vittles of a deer

Vittles is food whar I come from. But if the question is about their vitals meaning the heart/lungs I'd not wanna bet on it. For sure I'd use ONLY the 40 grain bullets and the toughest whoever makes. To me that's just a totally improper round to use on deer but yeah with perfect bullet placement on broad side shots it would kill them I'm sure. So will a properly executed head shot but that's about the single toughest shot there is to make on deer and for sure the smallest kill zone.

I've taken the shot twice in my entire deer hunting career and once it worked to perfection putting a 7mm 120 Nosler BT between the eyes of a buck at about 60 yards from a TC 7-30 waters. The other time I just clean missed the head and put a hole thru one ear. Luckily it also went into the neck and caught the spine. That one was from a .50 caliber TC Renegade from high up in a pine tree looking almost directly down on the doe. Both worked but one was a clean miss of the area I aimed for the head.