Control round feed

[Dixie Dude]

Why do a lot of the professional hunters recommend control round feed in your rifles?  Positive extraction after firing the rifle, would to me be more critical than control feeding.  Extracting a split or expanded shell would be more critical.  Would not push feed be just fine?  I guess I am saying in the earlier part of the 20th century quality control of ammo might not have been as good as today, and also rifle manufacture.  Just wondering.   I just want the best rifle on dangerous game.  The only jam I ever had was on a Marlin 1984 in .44 mag, and it was my fault I was operating the lever too slow.  I have had .22 autos jam with "dud" shells which were not hot enough to operate the action.  This was with cheap ammo.  I am still debating on what rifle to buy.

[Graybeard]

The "supposed" advantage is that if/when you short stroke it in the heat of excitement it will not lock up on you like a non controlled round feed rifle is "supposed" to do. I guess there is some limited reality to that argument.

[JJHACK]

I have this issue every season, sometimes  several times a year.

Here is the meat of the situation:
Military arms were all push feed at one time. However Paul Mauser found that way to many soldiers had jammed rifles during battle. Mauser found that in the heat of battle stress fire caused the soldier to extract the spent shell in the chamber, but not pull it back far enough to eject it, then shoving the bolt forward brings up a shell from the magazine. These two shells then get shoved with aggressive panic force into the chamber. Now you're stuck. Sometimes these jams take a hammer to beat back the bolt handle. They can really stick!

Paul Mausers design changed the way this woirks. The Mauser design has a shell holder type of bolt face with takes the shell from the magazine and holds it in the bolt face from the moment in the release of the magazine until it's ejected. It's not possible to feed the spent shell and the the new shell into the chamber at the same time. Only one shell can be in the feed at a time.

The debate comes from folks who rave endlessley about the higher quality and function of the CRF design over the PF design. Crf designs were far more expensive to manufactur with lots of hand fitting and custom feed work prior to 1964. After 1965 Winchester also began manufacturing the PF rifles to compete with everyone else. PF rifles are ( were) much less expensive to manufacture.  Now with NC and CNC machining the new CRF actions can be made as cost effective as any PF rifles.

OK some insight from myself and my hunters over 20 years. Others opinions may vary but this comes just from my own experience.
I've heard more folks then I can ever be able to recall that the PF rifles have never ever jammed on their owners. They claim feeding upside down, sideways, anyway you can dream up they simply always workm and never jam ....... EVER.

I agree 100% that I can shoot one to infinity at targets, plinking, even varmints and probably deer. I'll never get it to jam either. .............BUT................Under pressure I cannot recall how many dozens of people have had them jam, and jam tight! If I had a buck for every time I've heard a guy say "wow I've never had this jam before" or "holy crap it really can happen under stress" Or other similiar commnets like this. It's an endless and nearly predictable event that I see every single year by at least one hunter and one gun. Quite often I see this or one of the other PH's in Camp will tell us of this happening.

I have also seen many thousands of shots without fail using a PF rifle, but never not even one time EVER seen it happen with a CRF rifle. That's enough resolution in my life to direct me towards the CRF design for all my rifles. Paul Mauser designed this for War, but it works well for panic whether War, or DG hunting, or simple "buck fever" for a hunter.

Make mine a CRF preferably a Stainless Winchester Classic, or a Ruger.

[Dixie Dude]

Have you seen the control round feed of the Sako rifles?  I looked at one, and it seemed like a unique design. 

[JJHACK]

Nope, did not know Sako made a CRF. Got a web link?

[WL44]

I have no personal experience of DG hunting (Not yet  )

JJ said it. Here's an extract from my motivation for my licence application for a .375 H&H Winchester Model 70 Classic Stainless Synthetic that I managed to find 2nd hand.

It's a rehash of what JJ said, but states it quite clearly (this was from several books, internet authorities etc.)

A controlled-round feed type action will feed correctly with the rifle held at any angle and even upside down. Controlled-round feed designs also prevent double feeds. This is because when the extractor has captured one cartridge, a second cannot leave the magazine without the first being ejected. Either way, only one cartridge makes it into the chamber. With a push-feed action design, incorrect operation (particularly “double stroking” the bolt) can result in two cartridges trying to enter the chamber at once, jamming the rifle with potentially catastrophic results for the hunter.

Full length, Mauser type extractors not only increase feeding reliability, but they take a bigger bite on the rim of the fired case, making the extraction of dirty or oversize cases, or those affected by pressure due to high ambient temperatures, more certain. Most other designs do not take as positive a grip on the case rim as a Mauser claw extractor, making failures to extract more likely.

I'm also interested to hear about the Sako CRF.

I suppose there is an argument to be made that the sport hunter is guided by a professional (hopefully with a double or CRF  ), so he can get by with whatever, but lets face it it's always better when you have equipment that will work without question.

I've seen short stroking even in shoots of the Big Bore Association where members shot against a timer - just that added stress at a paper buffalo was enough!  Imagine the real thing!

[Dixie Dude]

Thanks for the responses.  I saw a Sako when I was in Wisconsin a few weeks back at Midwest Shooters Supply.  The salesman said it was control round feed.  I looked and it was a triangular shaped bolt with rotating head.  The head was cupped to receive the shell, but rotated to lock the with 3 locking lugs.  I will have to look at one again.  Cost was between a Ruger and a CZ.  I do not have a web link, but it is found under Beretta's web link. 

[Glanceblamm]

JJWrote:
I agree 100% that I can shoot one to infinity at targets, plinking, even varmints and probably deer. I'll never get it to jam either. .............BUT................Under pressure I cannot recall how many dozens of people have had them jam, and jam tight! If I had a buck for every time I've heard a guy say "wow I've never had this jam before" or "holy crap it really can happen under stress" Or other similar comments like this. It's an endless and nearly predictable event that I see every single year by at least one hunter and one gun. Quite often I see this or one of the other PH's in Camp will tell us of this happening.
----------------------------------------

This is the root cause for sure…We have all read (or experienced) cases of the Crow or duck hunter loading trying to load calls and similar objects into their guns when the action gets fast & furious…These stories can be quite entertaining until someone drops a 20ga shell in ahead of a 12ga, or if you have something large & dangerous coming over to settle differences with you.
JJ,
In your experience, do you find that the seasoned, experienced hunter is cool enough to get around these blunders or do you find that all are susceptible?
The rifles, such as the ones with the Mauser type action surely do help but stuff does happen.

[JJHACK]

At the risk of sounding cocky and boastful I am seasoned and very experienced and I've passed the stressful PH course for marksmanship, just like all the other PH's in RSA, Zimbabwe, Botswana, and Zambia. Yet all I own are CRF rifles, I don't trust my own panic skills to be flawless every time!

That should tell you what I think!  Why is it that so many,...... certainly a huge majority of PH's prefer a CRF rifle. They have more experience then most hunters, and certainly see much more stressful rifle manipulation in a season then recreational hunters see in a lifetime or longer.

Another interesting thing is that my 30/06, and 375HH which are used as loaners for every level of hunter you can imagine have never jammed, double fed, or had a stuck case. Not even for all the people of greatly varied skills.

I've had easily over 100 hunters which have shot an average of 7-8 animals each with a PUSH FEED rifle that have never had a single problem of any sort. That's pushing 1000 big game animals without flaw or failure. Would that not be enough to say that a PF rifle is fine?  That's a whole lot of success for a PF rifle!

Even with that great level of success it's all wiped away with a gun that jams and cannot be used until we go back to the camp to figure out how to get the jammed shells out. Or when trying to make a follow up shot and the cases get stuck. You don't need a lot of failures to spoil your view of the function. One or two times in a hundred would be too many for me.

I'll add that the people who have had this happen have a level of embarrassment and disappointment that is awkward at the moment it occurs. The comments that always come out of this are the same you hear on these kinds of internet sites.  Comments like " I have never had this happen before"     "I never believed it could happen to me."      "I thought the CRF stuff was just coming from CRF owners."
 Other comments like this are typical, some more angry, like  " I'll sell this POS the minute I get home, I'll kick my Gunsmiths A$$ when I get home, I'll never use this piece of crap again after this.

It is operator error that causes the problems almost all the time. It was ( I believe) Mausers intent to remove that error from the battle field. To that end he was very successful and it has carried over to the hunting profession as well.

[Dixie Dude]

So I guess the only manufacturers of good African rifles are Ruger, CZ, Winchester 70, maybe Sako.  I know custom rifles like Kimber are around.  Is it worth making a good rifle from a Mauser action?  I have debated this over and over, I love working on guns, taking them apart etc.  I don't have the tools to do the work myself, but have considered buying them.  What do you think? 

[JJHACK]

I think the best most affordable CRF rifle on the market today which is a true custom made action is a Montana Riflemen rifle. They sell only barreled actions, so you need to find the stock of your choice, and the rings and scope, and have it bedded and the trigger set etc. It's a true custom made beauty based on the mauser/mod 70. One of the finest rifles of all time at an actuial affordable price point.

[Dixie Dude]

Is there a link to the Montana Rifle?

[JJHACK]

Do a search on Yahoo or some other search engine, its probablly something liike
www.montanarifleman.com

[Questor]

I've tried and tried to cause a misfeed or problem with my .375H&H Remington 700 Safari and have not been able to induce one yet. My gyrations include holding the gun upside down and shaking it violently while running and chambering another round, among many other exercises.

If you're thinking about becoming a guide, then by all means use a gun with maximum field reliability and durability. That means spending a bit of money and getting perhaps some custom work done.

But most of us sport hunters do fine with Remington 700, Weatherbys, and Sakos. Many of the top hunters prefer these over all others for various reasons.

Side note: My CZ 550 with a CRF 98 Mauser design has lots of minor feeding problems in .270. I have to be very careful about how I stroke the bolt on that one. So just because it's CRF out of the box, doesn't mean it won't take a gunsmith to make it reliable.

My biggest concern with the Remington 700 is the reliability of the spring used in the ejection process. Seems a little weak to me, and have read some complaints about that feature. Perhaps just replacing it every 10 years or so is the best medicine.

[Siskiyou]

I have owned a Husqvarna Model 1950 based on a Mauser 98 action, a Swedish Model 96, and a Ruger Model 77 all of which are control feed actions.  But I do not consider myself an expert on control feed actions and have more questions then answers.

In 1965 I was out on patrol and a very frustrated hunter flagged me down and asked for help.  His rifle of unknown brand appeared to have a M98 control feed action.  If I recall correctly he related that he had seen a buck cross the road and he jumped out of his vehicle to pursue the buck down the hill.  His rifle had rounds in the magazine while in the vehicle, but in his excitement he drop another round into or partially into the chamber.  He then tried to slam the bolt close.  The bolt picked up a second round from the magazine tightly jamming the front of both rounds into the approach of the chamber.

Manually he could not extract the round that was locked into the Mauser extractor.  In turn I was not going to handle his firearm and be responsible for any damage. 

My next lesson in control feed was the Husqvarna Model 1950 which belonged to my father-in-law.  As a career army officer he hunted game in Alaska with it.  He always loaded the magazine first then chambered a round from the magazine.  He said that if a round is not carried from the magazine the extractor might not slip over the rim resulting in a failure to extract, and the possibility of a broken extractor.  He called it a “Mauser” jam.  He had trained with the 1903 Springfield before WWII, and when his unit was sent to the Pacific early in the War they may have been armed with the Springfield.

When I inherited the rifle I always loaded the chamber from the magazine.

Before I purchased a Control Feed Ruger M77 I had read that Ruger had slightly modified the Mauser Extractor so that it would slip over the rim of a cartridge if it were dropped into the chamber.  On numerous occasions I have drop a round into the chamber, held down the top round in the magazine enough the bolt would not pickup and closed the bolt without any problem.

I have not used my M96 Swede a lot, but I normally feed a round out of the magazine directly into the chamber.  Is this a necessary step?

A common trait of push feed actions and control feed actions with rounds in the magazine is that you have to hold the top round down if you are feed a loose round into the chamber.

So do control feed rifles have different traits when it comes to loading a round into the chamber?  If you are use to using a pre-64 Winchester does it have the same feeding characteristics of the Model 98, and the 1903 Springfield?

Or could a lot of these problems be resolved with practice, practice, and more practice with the firearm you are going to hunt with.

 

[JJHACK]

There are too many possible modifications to a military rifle converted to sporting use.

The ability of the extractor to pop over the rim when fed by hand rather then from the magazine is a well known issue for mausers.

That has been addressed by *all* modern sporting rifles like Kimber, Montana, Winchester, Whitworth, Ruger etc etc. All that I know of can be fed from the magazine or by adding one to the chamber by hand. The extractor face on these rifles has been beveled to manage this function.

Where older military designs are concerned, some may work just as well, but the extractor on some has been rumored to be brittle and can break if this is done frequently. There are just a whole lot of things that may or may not need to be done to feed ammo from other then the Magazine. Then you have the variable of gunsmiths skills and what they choose to do for machining the angles and surface.

I don't believe that those I listed above were ever involved with this. I think they have always been made to feed by hand or the Magazine, much like all the other modern CRF sporting rifles.

Quester; your comments are dead on the money regarding the kinds of things I've heard from almost all the hunters who have had this problem with a PF rifle. They have said almost everything you have.....................After seeing the jam up they are just as stunned as you would be.

[Questor]

JJHACK:

Amen. It amazes me that this is still a topic of some debate. I thought the pros settled the question long ago.

Bottom line is that the voice of experience says CRF rules for reliability. Not by a lot, but by enough to make it worthwhile to have it if you use it a lot.

Personally, if I were going to get a gun for maximum reliability, there would have to be a custom aspect to it and it would be CRF. I just don't see factory CRF rifles as being good enough. Mine certainly isn't. Nor are any others I have handled.

For me, the biggest factor in learning to operate a bolt action rifle reliably has been to practice and train myself on how far the bolt has to go back, and how everything feels when it's right. This has taken a lot of ammo and range time.

I have had a couple of gun malfunctions in the field. Not with bolt actions, but malfunctions nonetheless. It is surprising, and it requires a sudden shift of attention to resolve unless your prepared to handle it.  I think it's because we come to take the reliability for granted.

[Questor]

I just went back and read Graybeard's comment.

The interesting thing is that all of the supposed problems of PF are problems I have never been able to induce in my PF rifle, but can easily induce in my CRF rifle.

I believe that's because my CRF rifle needs to be worked on before it will be reliable. The PF is a custom shop gun.

It's the old Yugo versus Lexus argument. They both have internal combustion engines, but....

[lgm270]

Personally, I just like the feel of the feeding of the CRF mauser/Model 70.  The older M-70's and military mausers are particularly smooth. There is a certain sound and feel of the cartridge being picked up by the extractor  as it emerges from the magazine and is slipped into the chamber that is very reassuring to me. 

Also, I had a Winchester M-670 push feed 30-06 that stove piped rounds on a fairly regular basis and none of the three gunsmiths who worked on it could fix it.  Never had any problems with stovepiping or any other feeding problems  with any  my CRF M-70's or Mausers, either military or commercial.