H&R 35 Whelen fail to fire????

[fanner50]

Took new 35 Whelen Handi to range. 1st 200 gr Remington no fire. Hit primer. Tried 250 gr Remington 10 rounds no problem. Shot 1/2" 3 shot group at 100yds. 11th round no fire. Went back and tried 200gr got fire then got no fire. Hard primers? Anybody heard of this problem? Should I contact Remington or debur the transfer bar?All primers are struck the same. Any suggestions would be appreciated. It's hell to have a sub MOA rifle that might not lightoff.

[~Ace~]

Click Here

[quickdtoo]

Welcome to GBO, fanner50. If you read thru the FAQs and Help sticky, you'll find many tips on how to get the best accuracy out of your new Handi, but it may be futile with the Whelen, it's been discontinued by H&R due to issues just as you have experienced,  I'd contact H&R and make arrangement to have it repaired if they can as Glenn did. There's a link in the FAQs about this in addition to the newer thread Ace provided.

Good luck,

Tim

[fanner50]

Called H&R and talked to Gunsmith. He said the only problem they had was some ammo with hard primers. I could return it and if they couldn't fix it they would give me a dif cal barrel. Well I don't want a dif cal barrel. I guess I should have read this before buying. Why didn't they take them off the shelves? Well I'm a pretty fair smith myself and I guess I own this one so I'll have to fix it. Has anyone tried shaving a few thousandths off the hammer face to get a little harder strike. This might take up the dif in the chamber head space and give ignition. Factory told me to make sure I was pulling the trigger all the way through and to check my firing pin depth and let them know what I came up with. It would make sense that if you neck sized with care not to set back the shoulder on the once fired brass this problem wouldn't occur if indeed the problem is in the chamber dimension. Would like to hear what others have done.

[quickdtoo]

All the info is in the link Ace provided, read all 3 pages, Fred's contribution addresses hammer and firing pin issues.

Tim

[Scibaer]

The hard primers would explain the FTF's in the Rugers,Remington's and our NEF's that MSP Ret, noted in his post. But would that explain the FTF's being fixed by making a better shoulder on the cases as well ?  And if NEF can fix them with hammer and trigger work , then why discontinue production ? could it be that Remington ammo is the only ammo available and NEF didnt want to change production to get better hammer strikes for just this caliber ?
glenn

[fanner50]

Scibear - I hope you are on the right track with your thinkin as I don't want any other cal right now anyway. I was elated when I saw the 35 Whelen offering as it is noted here in Montana as a great Elk cartridge. The H&R makes a light and accurate rifle for the mountains that I can afford. I don't want to send it back for fear I won't get it back and this rifle shoots sub MOA.  I compared the fired case with an unfired one and it almost appears that the fired case has the shoulder set back a little which would show a proper fit and crunch on the cartridge. I'm going to make modifications to insure proper fp extention and try to increase the hammer inertia. I'm also going to roll my own with CCI primers and Nosler 225 gr bullets and see what happens.

[quickdtoo]

They evidently had too many barrels with poor chambers, bajabill got a replacement barrel in a different chambering and HUNTS got a refund for the entire rifle from H&R.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,112594.msg1098350105.html#msg1098350105

[Scibaer]

Well  honestly i dont know. i'm not a gunsmith, i just was making an observation based on what i read and experienced for myself. if hammer inertia is an issue, then the hammer extentions we need to use, because of scope clearance issues isnt helping that situation either. but like Tim points out, poor chambers are an issue. but the way i have been reading it, hammer strike and firing pin issues are more frequent then poor chambers, at best its an combination of these problems, to the point where NEF decided aginst continued production.  even if they did continue production of the whelen, tightened up their manufacturing of the chambers, they'd still have to adress remingtons ( at least ) hard primers issues.  hard primer are used on calibers  where auto,semi-auto, pump or lever action rifles employ rounds that are pointed on the end, we know this , to prevent mishaps, so should NEF.
They replace barrels or entire rifles, where the chamber is faulty, and fix the hammer strike where its at fault, as they did my mine.
for guys that can reload, this issue is fixable by custom rolling to match the chambers. for guys like me, i was lucky it was a hammer issue, that can be modified well, enough to allow me to shoot factory ammo. not an ideal situation, but its workable.  course, i 'd be taking a different tone , had i not been able to get my fixed and working..
Glenn

[bajabill]

What does not make sense to me with the firing pin as an explanation for the problem, is why are so many problems with the whelen, and even with whelen barrels fitted to frames that previously fired every round of other chamberings ever fed thru them.  I think the firing pin is the fix for the problem, not the source of the problem.  I also dont know how hard primers can be the source of the problem. 

I hate to type this over and over, but I had problems with virgin brass homemade ammo, using the same primers I use in other HR barrels.  I was able to get some of these to fire by loading to the lands.  I thought that would have been the end of the story, but after reloading with minimal brass resizing, about half of these fired with normal seating depth bullets.  So, I think quicks explanation about the brass not expanding completely comes to light.  I did measure headspace on the fired brass can did not notice a significant increase compared to the virgin brass.  Case dia near the neck was larger however.

I think greater firing pin protrusion can compensate for the whelen issue, other chamberings do not need as much, and hopefully the greater protrusion will not be a problem with other chamberings - such as the 243 where I have been fighting that round to keep it from growing out the back of the stock

[quickdtoo]

I still think it's a combination of the chamber spec and firing pin issues, some being more a chamber issue, as you said Bill, you used the same primers in other chambered Handis. Loading into the lands, unless you load hard into them, may not be sufficient if the chamber and brass is the problem, add the weak hammer spring and/or short firing pin protrusion and you get a no fire. Creating a false shoulder on handloads would eliminate that issue if it were the case, but since you didn't try that, we won't know for sure.

Tim