Author Topic: LBT 250 LFN 41 for hunting (Read 2034 times)

blklabs · « **on:** August 30, 2007, 09:43:27 AM »

Lloyd,
I know you have said in other posts that this was an extremely accurate bullet, what do you think of the performance of the bullet in a hunting situation? Also, do you think you could push this bullet close to 1000 fps with Unique, just bought an 8# jug of it.

Does anybody know of a commercial caster that cast this bullet? I saw a 250 on Beartooth, but I didn't think that he used LBT moulds? Thanks!

Jonathan

swampthing · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2007, 10:02:52 AM »

Check www.montanabulletworks.com , he might have them. He uses not only LBT moulds but LBT Lube as well.
I would push them a little faster for hunting. Around 1200fps, with AA#9 or the like, "should" shorten the distance to recovery to within sight.

Lone Star · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2007, 01:06:25 PM »

It is difficult to find reliable data for many LBT bullets because they are so different from most others in design. Because they have so much of the bullet outside the case, they increase the case capacity over a similar weight Lyman, etc. Thus they need more powder to reach the same velocities - but they can reach higher velocities at the same pressure because they make the cartridge act like a larger one.

Pet Loads from Handloader magazine lists over 1300 fps with Unique and 220-grain bullets, so I imagine you can get over 1000 fps with Unique and the 250LBT. Based on my experience with a 300-grain LFN-LBT in a .45LC, I don't think you need much more than 1000 fps to do the job well. You will probably need a slower powder than Unique to reach 1200 fps safely. BTW, that bullet was extremely accurate in my Dan Wesson M45 - I used it at 1080 fps for IHMSA silhouette shooting and at 200 meters it's accuracy and hitting power were phenominal.

.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2007, 02:52:32 PM »

To be honest im not a big 41 fan and have never shot anything bigger then a varmit with one. I would guess that it would do fine on deer sized game at 1000 fps but 1200 would be better. Your giving up bullet size to the 44 and 45s and the little extra velocity would probably helps some especially if you were going after something bigger then a deer. If I wanted to push that bullet to a 1000 fps id probably look at something like hs6 as unique may be a little fast for a 250 at 1000 but then ive never tried it so i dont really know. If yo step it up to 1200 powders like 2400 aa9 lilgun and 110 would probably be best. I do know that that 250 lfb lfngc is probably the most accurate 41 bullet overall in any 41 ive tried it in though. It does real well at long range too!

GradyL41 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2007, 08:05:50 PM »

Not a .41 fan?

?

Oh well each to his on I will look and see what i have on unique-- I still have some older material-- if it were 220-230 no problem but I have never shot a 250 with unique//Montana bullets might be your place as they are suppose to be LBT in all their LBT bullets & I agree with the other wise gents here-- you could use more velocity than 1000----next time you go to Beartooth go to their ballistic section --he has a permanent wound channel thingie that will tell you what size the bullet is supposed to leave at the different velocity- you can use .300 to .320 to figure with btw I just went there and at a striking velocity of 100 fps the wound channel is .775 as it falls off with any distance say 8oofps- .620 so the formula says-- the extra 200 feet per second at the muz will really help btw I used .310 for the meplat

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2007, 10:46:34 PM »

Frank at mount baldy bullets casts that 250. As a matter of fact the mold i have was a gift from him. Its a little tired now and needs to be replaced but like i said the 41s dont get much exercise anymore. When im going hunting its usually a 44 or 45 in the holster.

blklabs · « **Reply #6 on:** September 02, 2007, 07:37:11 AM »

Well I looked at MBW and they have a LBT 240 with a meplat of .430. Marshall's permanent wound channel calculator says that it will leave a permanent wound channel diameter of 1.075 at 1000 fps, 1.29 at 1200 fps, and 1.398 at 1300. Now surely for deer and small pigs, under 250#s the 1000 fps load should work fine. What do you guys think? Of course I could always have the plinking load of Unique and use H110 for hunting. Load Swap has the 250 LBT with 20 g of H110, velocity at 1350 .......

I wonder how much the impact would change with the two loads?

GregP42 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 02, 2007, 08:29:02 AM »

Quote from: blklabs on September 02, 2007, 07:37:11 AM

Well I looked at MBW and they have a LBT 240 with a meplat of .430. Marshall's permanent wound channel calculator says that it will leave a permanent wound channel diameter of 1.075 at 1000 fps, 1.29 at 1200 fps, and 1.398 at 1300. Now surely for deer and small pigs, under 250#s the 1000 fps load should work fine. What do you guys think? Of course I could always have the plinking load of Unique and use H110 for hunting. Load Swap has the 250 LBT with 20 g of H110, velocity at 1350 .......

I wonder how much the impact would change with the two loads?

Um.... How can the meplat be .430 if your bore is .410? I would love to get space to bend like that around my .41! I shoot 265gr GC cast out of mine all the time with Unique and have had no issues, they are running right at 1100 fps, a real thumper in the hand let me tell you! I loaded some 212gr plain base up to 1300fps, sweet shooting and no leading from it. Good luck and let me know how this one turns out, and if I down a deer with my .41 I will let you guys know about it too.

Greg

swampthing · « **Reply #8 on:** September 02, 2007, 08:51:24 AM »

You would be a lot better off with a WFN or a WLN profile. The meplats on those LFN's can get pretty narrow on the smaller calibers, and with that you would need to increase velocity way above what you would need if you had the same bullet in the wide nose profile, as far as killing power/wound channel goes. The .250" meplat of a LFN would have to be pushed to 1500fps to make a wound the size of what a .320" meplat, WFN, @1200fps would leave behind. That my friend is a fairly large difference in recoil an blast just to get a few lowsy yards of point blank range from your handgun.

blklabs · « **Reply #9 on:** September 02, 2007, 12:18:14 PM »

Ok so looking at MBW webpage where I got the data, it was Metplat not meplat on the data that I looked at. Sorry about the wrong data. The problem is that I have tried the MBW 220 WFN and they wont chamber in my gun. They round sticks out about .1" from the cylinder back of the cylinder . So I am assuming that the other WFN will do the same. Now the WLN, how does that differ from the WFN? Will I still have the same problem?

Greg, what load are you using to get to 1100 with Unique?

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** September 02, 2007, 12:35:14 PM »

I'm NOT a .41 mag fan in the least BUT come on guys we've been telling everyone a .429" or .452" cast bullet of 240-250 grains is adequate for most anything in the US especially short of the big bears when pushed to 900-1000 fps and now you're gonna say a .410" of 250 grains at 1000 fps is NOT?

Give me a break any over .40 bullet of 250 grains at 1000 fps should exit any critter you shoot with it for the most part and leave a plenty big enough hole on the way. Now if you ask me if a 210 JHP is adequate from my experience I'd say not on big hogs.

swampthing · « **Reply #11 on:** September 02, 2007, 03:44:43 PM »

Did you say they won't chamber? {bullet dia. is too big, try .001-.002" smaller} Or they will chamber but they stick out of the front of the cylinder? {bullet needs to have a shorter "nose to crimp"}
For the sake of this discussion metplat and meplat are the same thing, one of us has got the spelling wrong but they mean the same thing; ie; the diameter of the nose/front of a bullet.
The measurement he is listing is the "nose to crimp." Which simply means the distance from the crimp groove to the nose of the bullet. A WLN will probably not be a good choice as they tend to have the crimp groove further back as to accommodate long cylinders and also to utilize more powder, and for 1000-1200fps load is a waste of time in your case.
Sure a .41cal, 250g, LFN @1000fps will penetrate and kill, but that animal will probably run a ways before expiring, where if a WFN, @ the same velocity was to connect, your distance to recovery will probably be a bit shorter, and @1200fps it probably will go down within sight, if not instantly.

blklabs · « **Reply #12 on:** September 02, 2007, 04:10:21 PM »

They won't chamber, I am assuming the bullet is sized too large at .411 to fit into the chamber. Therefore the back of the case, with the primer, sticks out of the cylinder. One thing I don't know is after the bullets were heat treated, can you resize them to .410?

? If so then maybe that is an option to get these bullets to load properly.

If I can get the orginal ones to resize that is what I would prefer, otherwise I will be looking at something else, maybe the LFN, Keith or Semi-wadcutter to see if they will do the trick ......

Graybeard, I had read many times on here that a hard cast, in this case a BHN of 22, should penetrate through and through at 1000 fps ........though I do like them to dop without much of a tracking job, that would be nice ..........

Quote from: swampthing on September 02, 2007, 03:44:43 PM

Did you say they won't chamber? {bullet dia. is too big, try .001-.002" smaller} Or they will chamber but they stick out of the front of the cylinder? {bullet needs to have a shorter "nose to crimp"}
For the sake of this discussion metplat and meplat are the same thing, one of us has got the spelling wrong but they mean the same thing; ie; the diameter of the nose/front of a bullet.
The measurement he is listing is the "nose to crimp." Which simply means the distance from the crimp groove to the nose of the bullet. A WLN will probably not be a good choice as they tend to have the crimp groove further back as to accommodate long cylinders and also to utilize more powder, and for 1000-1200fps load is a waste of time in your case.
Sure a .41cal, 250g, LFN @1000fps will penetrate and kill, but that animal will probably run a ways before expiring, where if a WFN, @ the same velocity was to connect, your distance to recovery will probably be a bit shorter, and @1200fps it probably will go down within sight, if not instantly.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2007, 12:43:56 AM »

heres my take on it. I dont like wfn and detest wlfns. Wfns are tough to get to shoot at a level im happy with and Ive never got a wlfn to shoot into groups that make me happy in any gun with any load. If your trying to get wfns to shoot well at low velocitys i wish you luck! Ive killed things with the 44 and 45s with wfns and with lfns and swc and theres very little differnce if any in wound channels or reaction of game. Im a fan of swcs but have to admit veral hit on somethng with his lfn design. Its probably the easiest bullet out there to get to shoot well in a gun. They fly well at long range. Ive seen swcs that didnt and have never seen a wfn that did and every lfn ive shot has. If your talking deer sized and even black bear sized game a 41 loaded with 250 lfns at 1000 fps is plenty of medicine for them.

GradyL41 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2007, 03:37:05 AM »

I looked up some old data I have since the 70's anyway 9 gr of unique would give you your 1000 fps and seeing as how the .41 250 is = in SD to a 270 gr or so in the .44(.429) there is no question about it killing what you want -- like I said if there is a problem it would be as you extend the range-- the MBW works 240 has a meplat of .320--yes you can size .411 HTBs to 410 there is some spring back but they ought to go down some - if your rounds are not going all the way in it sounds like the front band on the wfn is your problem -- anyway if you order some MBW bullets talk to the boss there and he will help you work it out with his bullets

swampthing · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2007, 04:08:09 AM »

Sound like a simple fix, size'm down, or better, measure your throats and order them "AT" or .001" below throat dia.
I've shot WFN's as low as 850fps from my .44mag and as high as 1500fps, all, and everywhere in between, are exceptionally accurate. Also if your throats are less than bore dia. you are not going to have any fun getting hardcasts to shoot well, unless you know how to open the throats, "squarely," soft lead, or, I hate to say it but, jacketed bullets will be a lot easier to shoot well
The key is to have the right sized bullet, this keeps the bullet from tipping and entering the throat off center, blah, blah, blah, a smooth barrel, [firelap it if it needs it], and proper powder charges. No not all my starting loads were tack drivers, most were 3"- 4", but as I developed the load by working up, I have always found an accurate charge weight, regardless of the powder or goal of velocity, always. As far as the person not getting accuracy with WFN's, just how far are you shooting where LFN's are more accurate?
This is not a dig, but like I stated, Man, I can't say enough good things about the WFN, your misfortune compels me to come see it for myself. I load them as per Veral Smith and Marshal Stanton's books, yeah it's a bit of work but not "that!" much work.
Anyway, size'em till they just slip through the throats with finger pressure, or pencil eraser end pressure, start with a min charge of unique for a similar weight jacketed bullet and develop them over a chronygraph. With WFN's of course!

blklabs · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2007, 04:54:19 AM »

So i have never sized bullets, what do I need to do that?

?? If he had them sized to .411 then I guess I will try .410 which is what my throats measured with the calipers .........

swampthing · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2007, 05:12:18 AM »

Lee makes a sizing die that screws into your reloading press, simply screw it in and run a bullet through it nose first and your done. You can order the size you need from Mid South shooters supply and the like. This will allow you to size down the ones you got, and, as well as any other lead bullets you come across that doesn't come sized the way you want.
Just make absolutely sure of the throat size, it's a pain in the neck if you buy the wrong die, don't be afraid to go .001" smaller than you need. Don't go any smaller than that, you want them to be a snug slip fit through the throats for max accuracy.
If you can get a couple .410''s to see if they can be pushed through, if they do, and a loaded one can be chambered, you got your size. One last thing is the bore groove dia. smaller than the throat dia? This is a must for top accuracy with hard cast bullets.

jk3006 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 03, 2007, 05:18:00 AM »

Quote from: blklabs on September 02, 2007, 12:18:14 PM

Ok so looking at MBW webpage where I got the data, it was Metplat not meplat on the data that I looked at. Sorry about the wrong data. The problem is that I have tried the MBW 220 WFN and they wont chamber in my gun. They round sticks out about .1" from the cylinder back of the cylinder . So I am assuming that the other WFN will do the same. Now the WLN, how does that differ from the WFN? Will I still have the same problem?

Greg, what load are you using to get to 1100 with Unique?

That ".430" is nose-to-crimp groove, not the meplat. They will list the meplat in parethesis, but they don't have it listed for the majority of their bullets. However, meplat is probably .320.

swampthing · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2007, 05:30:49 AM »

Forgot to add...
WLN's are a waste of time in your case. I would not bother with them. They, basically, have a crimpgroove set waayy back to allow the bullet to be seated and crimped further out so as to maximize powder space and velocity. For 1000-1200fps they are not needed. Besides, only "long cylinder" guns can use them, as they will protrude from the "FRONT" of the cylinder on standard ones.

GregP42 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2007, 06:16:32 AM »

blklabs,

Sorry if I seemed gruff about the .430 comment, I meant it as a joke. The load I am using I am not going to share because it is right at the max load listed for this combination, and while it is safe in my pistol, I don't want to hurt you or yours. As far as the length, what you need to do is measure the length of your cylinder, then take the length of a trimmed piece for brass, and the length of the bullet from the crimp grove to the end added together and subtract that from your cylinder measurement. You want about .020 or more clearance from the end of the round to the end of the cylinder in case you have a bullet jump the crimp or something like that. I loaded some that were only .005 short and ended up with a locked up gun when one jumped the crimp some.

Bill,

The reason I am building this load this hot and fast is hogs, I have seen them just shrug off lighter loads from a lot of guns, I want to drop them because a mad hog is not what I want after me!

As far as meplat vs metplat, I have seen both spellings used for years, even the ammo makers can't seem to decide which is correct. And as a side note, neither word is in the dictionary.

Now to go do more yard work,
Greg

blklabs · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2007, 06:34:25 AM »

Ok so I checked Midsouth and they have .410 Lee sizing die and kit for like 12.00. I think I will get that and see if that fixes the rounds. Now I had them made with gas checks, do I need to pop those off before I size them. Also if I am only running them to 1000 - 1200 fps, then do I need a gas check? If I do can I reuse the gas checks currently on there? Thanks for all the help guys ....... I learn a ton on this board ......

GregP42 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2007, 07:17:21 AM »

Quote from: blklabs on September 03, 2007, 06:34:25 AM

Ok so I checked Midsouth and they have .410 Lee sizing die and kit for like 12.00. I think I will get that and see if that fixes the rounds. Now I had them made with gas checks, do I need to pop those off before I size them. Also if I am only running them to 1000 - 1200 fps, then do I need a gas check? If I do can I reuse the gas checks currently on there? Thanks for all the help guys ....... I learn a ton on this board ......

Blklabs,

Just leave the gaschecks on there and run them through. Now question, were these rounds too long or too big around when chambered? If too long then you won't be able to fix that by sizing them, but if too big around you will be.

Greg

blklabs · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2007, 07:53:41 AM »

They were too big around. The cases stuck out the back of the cylinder by about .1". Thanks for the info .......

swampthing · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2007, 08:29:48 AM »

Exactly, gas check and all.
If you find that .410" sizing still isn't enough but its close, a .409" should do the trick, reason being is there will be a slight "spring back effect" after sizing, {sounds worse than it is}, it isn't more than .0005''-.001"
If you call Lee they should be able to send you one for about the same price as midsouth.

blklabs · « **Reply #25 on:** September 03, 2007, 09:17:57 AM »

Well I checked out Alliants data for Unique and for a 220 JHP there load was 9.3 grains for a velocity of just over 1200 fps. Now with a cast bullet, that velocity should be the same but the CUP lower, isn't that correct? If I could get 1200 out of the WFN if the resizing works, then that would be a good hunting load. If I did ever go for bigger game than hog, then I would probably load with H110, they had a max load that got over 1500fps ........ that should have some knockdown power with it ...........

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=220&shellid=1024&bulletid=79

swampthing · « **Reply #26 on:** September 03, 2007, 11:59:23 AM »

With a hardcast and good lube, yes the pressure will be lower, although, that 1200fps 220-250g WFN will do a great job.

GradyL41 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 03, 2007, 03:12:35 PM »

About Montana Bullet works -- i asked about the meplat on the 220 gr-- and the 240gr and was told they are indeed .320
the bullet nose if i remember right was .350 for the 220s wfngc and .365 on the 240s

jhalcott · « **Reply #28 on:** September 03, 2007, 04:40:39 PM »

What is the LENGTH of your brass? Could it need to be trimmed? You can push a lubed bullet thru the cylinder and measure the diameter. Then you will know what sizer to get. If you are leery of this just use a lubed one.

S.B. · « **Reply #29 on:** October 31, 2007, 05:56:00 PM »

Is accuracy as good with the LBT 250 WFN as with their LFN?