Author Topic: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr  (Read 2643 times)

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Offline civilcannon

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Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« on: August 31, 2007, 06:22:42 AM »
Hay guys: I am getting a little to old and tired to hall around and serve my full scale 6 pounder. Evan the 1/2 scale Napoleon gets a little heavy sometimes. If you know what I mean. So I have always wanted a brass/bronze 24 pounder in a light weight 1/4 or 1/5 scale.
I am looking at the 1/5 scale 24 pounder in brass SAE 360 58,000 psi the tube is 24''x 4'' and weighs 35 pounds it can be ordered in 1.687 bore (GB) size for $1350.00 buffed or $1,150 unbuffed, from the Canadian Cannon Co.
Any way it seems a little pricey but i know that brass tubes are expensive. Has any one delt with this company? or do you know of another source for a brass tube for Golf Balls. I will build the carriage so I just want the tube. Hay Ill half to put away my civil war hat and get a tri-corn like Tropico.

Thanks: Civil Cannon  ;D

Offline Tropico

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 07:56:30 AM »
Hello civilcannon ., I have heard only good things about Canadian Cannon Company., so myself I have just opted for this very same cannon (pretty much)  Mine is not the standard 24 pounder., I ordered a custom pattern and bought a stick of 660 bronze. Also we are going with a 1" bore. this will give me a 1.5" thick breech wall (1" Magnum ) .

The Brass or Bronze is definitely high right now and it went up substantially a couple years ago., and this year as well..., personally I dont see it coming down..., ever. ? If you want the gold., now would probably be a good time.

 I found Bill to be very accomodating ., easy to talk to and happy to work with any pattern or metal.  I will post my results pretty soon. Also if you go thru the threads here on GBO there is a nice Brass Cannon on a field carriage with photos that came from CCC ., the Cannon was beautiful and the reciepient was very happy.

Good luck to you on your choice of cannon-maker and your choice of cannon.  PLEASE keep us informed .
I believe if you work with Bill youll be happy .

P.S. Get the 3-cornered War-Hat

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 11:49:42 AM »
Hay Tropico that sounds like good advise about CCC I will close on a property that I am selling next week..... and then have a few extra dollars to spend .The 24 pounder from CCC is the best that I have found so far.

I may have enough left over for a cutlass, eye patch and a Jolly Roger to go along with the hat.I already have an antique 8 spoke maple and walnut 30" ships wheel that I am refinishing. That will look good next to the brass 24 pounder. Unfortunately the only high sea close by is the Mississippi River, about 15 miles West of me.

thanks Again : Civil Cannon

Offline Cannonball

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2007, 01:58:32 PM »
You wont be disappointed! I wasn't anyway.

Offline rusty barrels

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 10:28:53 AM »
There be pirates on the Mississippi.

Offline Tropico

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 02:34:29 PM »
Quote
There be pirates on the Mississippi.


We are every-where







Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2007, 12:11:14 PM »
Hay Tropico:


I will contact CCC next week about the 24pound-er tube.  Avast : I think there is enough gold in that mouth to pay for another 1" bore tube.
I"ll let you know how it goes with my order. Hay I'm also looking at Hern's hardware kit in bronze for the 1/2 scale carronade by Hern Iron Works, that is for the 25" carronade, close to the CCC'S 24 " tube. But I think the cap squares are for 1 1/2 " trunions.
The CCC tube is set up for 1 3/8'', I could make up  a spacer in brass to adjust for the difference. What do you guys think?

Thanks Civil Cannon

Offline lendi

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2007, 01:07:20 PM »
civilcannon,
I have 1 3/8" bronze trunion caps as well as other sizes, and various brass/bronze hardware.  I use these on our carriages.  Let me know if you are interested.
Len
Duck Island Cannon Works

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2007, 12:18:42 PM »
Thanks  Len I sent you a pm with some questions on some of your products.

Hay Tropico: Are you familiar with the swivel gun offered by G. Gedney Goodwin, Inc
at  http://www.gggodwin.com/page18.htm  it is rough  cast Navy gun bronze 23' Long with a 1.75 bore
and 55# Does anyone know this  company? I am still shopping around.

Thanks Civilcannon

Offline Tropico

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2007, 02:20:59 PM »
I believe HERN will only cast with class 30 grey iron. (That's what the foundry is specifically tooled for). As for the G. Gedney Goodwin ., I thought about it., then I thought since the casting has a bore? sort of., I really need to get it to a machinist before firing and have a smoth bore finished into it.$$$ then  I do not believe it is a caliber thick in all directions at the breech..., so..., that right there ended it for me. Goodwin I believe has suspended that cannon last I talked with them., (May or June 2007)

Also Wild Imports has a 1.70 golf ball cannon as well however the breech walls are something like 11/16th's thick...., for me thats not good when a swivel is in my face. 

Something Double D said to  me in a post I will never forget when I first became a board member., was something to the effect of ..., Just because you think you know how to safely fire your particular cannon.., doesnt mean the next guy does..., and a cannon will out live you ., and probably  the next person as well., therefore what make a cannon a cannon is that its over built ., 1 caliber thick in all directions is the rule.
In my mind that will always stand out as one of the most important things to know before firing a said cannon.

 GGaskil is an expert on metals and cannon making and he can give specs more than I .,  also if you look thru the threads at Seacoastartillerys Parrot rifle and Dominick's Dictators., youll see these guys take the rule to heart and build multi-generational firing replicas. Pieces that will last the ages ..., really.  

If you are thinking about a swivel., I would go thick in the breech  or under bored.   Also I would beconfidentt in Bill at Canadian Cannon he sells cannons to people who use them for competitions and his cannons exceed the specs., including removable breechs so thee  inspector can look for burning embers  between rounds. I am a sort of "Collector" ., I dont know what these guys know.., but I have 1 bronze swivel and I am doing another., (Pics soon) and I have confidence enough in these rules to fire it close to my face.., thick...., safe......,over kill .,  yea I look forward to shooting the swivel . Please keep us posted ., I love this stuff ! (I am still rooting for CCC on this because i know your after that big Golden Gun ! )

The more I learn., the slightly bigger I have my breechs made., and I go  slightly smaller in the bores.........., I am  still shooting !!!!  

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2007, 12:10:16 PM »
I sent some questions to CCC today I sill am concerned by the specs for the 24 pound- er it says that it is 24" by 4" and at golf Ball size bore, that does not add up to the one caliber each side. So I'm  waiting for a response. I  believe that everything that Tropico said is good advise. So we will see what they come back with.

Still waiting for that big golden gun ;D

Thanks : Civilcannon

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2007, 06:50:29 AM »
I just heard back from Bill @CCC : he tells me that the 1.68 bore GB size  has 1 1/8 " thickness on the walls and at the rear of the breach, this does not fit the one caliber rule that we discussed, but I was thinking that Since this is a machined tube from  SAE 360 58,000 PSI brass and not a sand casting that the strength of the material would be superior. So with  less that  the full 1.68 wall and back what do you guys think of this barrel ?

Thanks Civilcannon

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 08:30:36 AM »
As long as you stick to golf balls and powder charges appropriate to golf balls, it should be fine.  The low mass of a golf ball will not allow much pressure to build up as long as you don't use too much and the wrong grade of powder.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 08:32:11 AM »
The one caliber rule is a safety Rule of N-SSA.

I can't imagine you would have any problems with it if all you shot was golf balls.  But can you guarantee that somebody on down the line might not put solid shot in it?

Something we haven't mentioned for a while is barrel liners.  Both NSSA and AAA require 3/8 in seamless steel liners in these barrels.  AAA calls for a yeid strength of 85,000 PSI

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 09:46:57 AM »


If this is the barrel you are considering, I would not fire anything heavier than golf balls from it because the trunnions appear to be too small diameter for anything heavier.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Tropico

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 10:13:42 AM »
Quote
But can you guarantee that somebody on down the line might not put solid shot in it?
That's it right there., you never know who will do what ., after your gone. 

Also
Quote
If this is the barrel you are considering, I would not fire anything heavier than golf balls from it because the trunnions appear to be to small diameter for anything heavier.
  I cant tell size of these trunnions from the pic but they do look small. The cool thing about CCC and of course other makers is they ability to work with them on your needs.  (one of your needs is to be sure its overbuilt .., bore size doesnt matter.., overbuilt., that matters)


 I went with 4" stock (660 bronze) a 1" bore., and a 1.5 trunnion shoulder machined down to 1.250 .., I believe the barrel will be approx   3.350 where the trunnions extend from the barrel .

I dont compete., there wont be a liner in mine., just a 1" hole drilled into 4" stock . 

I know some old English swivels were 2" bore but thats a bit big for my fun. I am not trying to survive a sea-battle just have a bit of fun. Indonesian Lantaka's were common with a 1" bore so I figured that to be a safer size for us to play with.

1" lead balls fly straighter than golf balls ever thought about. They dont bounce all over and they hit real hard.., They sound real good and there an easy to pack around cannon also recoil on a 1" bore is enough for me. I wish you were close by I would let you shoot our swivel...., ( here is a link to 1" bores moving lead and a 1" swivel also with lead . )      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLVu970mANY 

I bet youd find it to be a workable bore for entertainment ., economy and  and signalling. Good luck.., keep posting..., and GET A GOLDEN GUN !! Heres a Hoorah ! for Civilcannon .     

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 03:42:15 PM »
Thanks all for your input.

GGaskill: Yes the picture that you posted I the one that I am considering

I would only shoot golf balls and would not be interested in  firing in an N-SSA or any competition.
I would think that a safe load would be 3 oz of 1f black powder.

The trunions are 1/1/4" according to Bill @CCC and are threaded, I also agree they look small I may change them out to 1 1/2" if I can have them machined by a friend.

DD: I agree we have a responsibility to our future generation of cannoniers  but we can not always guarantee or control the actions of others after our guns leave our care. Any firearm or cannon can be abused by using the wrong ammunition, or to heavy of powder charge, or the wrong powder. So If we cannot guarantee how they will be used or misused, what if we leave a set of  instructions in the form of an engraved brass plate or tag affixed  to the carriage  in a prominent place on each gun: that contains the following information:

Safe load : Type and grade of the safe charge of black powder.

Ammunition : The proper material and size that will safely fit the bore for this  tube

Effective range  of the projectile and  explain the safety zone around  the front of the barrel and vent

If you built the gun,  (all artists  should sign their work) unless you are concerned with the liability:  your name and date  perhaps ( a little piece of immortality).

What do you think?

Civilcannon


Offline GGaskill

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 04:01:03 PM »
My guess is 3 oz of Fg powder would send a golf ball across the next county (well, maybe not if it is San Bernardino county, but you get my drift.)
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2007, 04:17:27 PM »
OK i guess 3oz of 1F is a bit heavy i'm thinking of my 1/ 2 scale Napolian

Offline Double D

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2007, 05:17:16 PM »

I would only shoot golf balls and would not be interested in  firing in an N-SSA or any competition.
I would think that a safe load would be 3 oz of 1f black powder.

Yes, You might do that.  But can you guarantee it?  Trust us when we say you won't be satisfied with golf balls.  And can you guarantee the next owner will be satisfied with just golf balls.  I'll bet not.

Powder charge...refer to Switliks chart.  1.5 inch = 500gr.  Then Switlik jumps to 2 inch guns and 2 oz of Cannon grade per inch.  So a two inch gun uses 1750 grs or 4 oz.   Those are maximum recommend loads for shooting  NSSA and AA events. Not War loads.  So where is the 1.72 diameter barrel? Some where in between.  Build your self a graph using Switliks chart and you will find the load.  BUT and this is a big but Switlik warns  that high pressures build when using Fg in cannons.  Fg might be okay for golf balls.  Again can you guanantee the next guy will only shoot golf balls and Fg.  Reread Switliks chapter on pressure. He recommends minimum charges when using  Fg.

Quote
The trunions are 1/1/4" according to Bill @CCC and are threaded, I also agree they look small I may change them out to 1 1/2" if I can have them machined by a friend.


Trunnions should be the same diameter or larger than the bore.  If those trunnions are straight round srock threaded then they are weak. The shear forces of recoil will be passing through the thread. They should have a shoulder and should be welded, soldered or epoxied in place.

Quote
DD: I agree we have a responsibility to our future generation of cannoniers  but we can not always guarantee or control the actions of others after our guns leave our care. Any firearm or cannon can be abused by using the wrong ammunition, or to heavy of powder charge, or the wrong powder. So If we cannot guarantee how they will be used or misused, what if we leave a set of  instructions in the form of an engraved brass plate or tag affixed  to the carriage  in a prominent place on each gun: that contains the following information:

Safe load : Type and grade of the safe charge of black powder.

Ammunition : The proper material and size that will safely fit the bore for this  tube

Effective range  of the projectile and  explain the safety zone around  the front of the barrel and vent

If you built the gun,  (all artists  should sign their work) unless you are concerned with the liability:  your name and date  perhaps ( a little piece of immortality).

What do you think?

Rationalization won't make the gun safer.  All the safety warnings in the world don't substitute for building the gun correctly to start with.

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 10:01:39 AM »
It sounds to me that the 1.68 GB size bore with 1 1/4 trunions is not a good good choice for this tube so, Bill also offers this same tube with a 1 1/4" bore not for  GB's but at 4'' overall  this would result in a 1.375 " wall thickness at the breach. Also the trunions would be equal to the bore. What  would be recommended as a good size for the ball mold? I know that their is a formula for this but I'm at work and away from my books .As for shooting Golf Balls I might consider the Dictator that Dom produces. A good looking piece

Thanks to all
Civiccannon

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 10:57:45 AM »
What  would be recommended as a good size for the ball mold? I know that their is a formula for this but I'm at work and away from my books.

According to the formula used here, ball diameter should be 39/40 of bore diameter.

39/40 of 1.250" equals 1.219"


Do they offer this barrel bored as a Howitzer? As a Howitzer with a golfball bore and a 1" diameter chamber this gun would be well within specs, except for the trunnions, which I agree need to be bigger. If the trunnions are screwed in it should be an easy modification to increase their diameter.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 12:21:58 PM »
The trunnions on this style of barrel are usually cylindrical (no rimbases) and mounted with their centers on the bottom line of the bore, although the ones pictured are on bore center.  Trunnion diameter is also usually equal to bore diameter which would be 5.82" divided by the scale factor (5.82/5=1.164", a touch over 1 1/8".)  Below is my 1/5 scale version whose trunnions (1 1/8") I am used to.  Perhaps the angle makes them look larger.

GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 03:31:31 PM »
I don't think it's the angle.

Looking at the other photo (CCC cannon), those trunnions are very small in proportion to the barrel. Yours look normal.

Sticking that photo into my CAD program, and using a four inch diameter at the breech as a measure, those trunnions don't appear to be anywhere near as large as the 1¼" described by Tropico and civilcannon. It's impossible to get a really accurate measurement given the quality of the photo and the angle of the barrel, but the difference is enough to be apparent even by this crude method.

Maybe this is a different barrel? Or an obsolete photo?

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 05:07:17 PM »
The photo is hosted on the CCC website so if it is obsolete, it is what they are using for advertising.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2007, 05:26:27 AM »
Hay all
I got more information from Bill at CCC today He tells me that the brass tube is rated at about 35,000 psi and not rated for lead ball only GB'S also his trunions  are threaded with 3/4-16 and the threaded portion counter bored 11/16" and then threaded 3/4-16 and  the end of the trunion is flush to the inside bore of this threaded portion of the barrel leaving no gap for unsafe firring.

He stated that if I want a tube for lead ball He would select a good bronze stock at about $900 just for the stock.

I don't know the more that I hear I am thinking this is not a good choice.

Thanks Civilcannon

Offline Tropico

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2007, 06:05:43 AM »
This is just my humble opinion but here it goes.., ? 
      If you want to build a golf ball size bore..., many do.., then you'll need a 5.25 breech.., most dont do that..., but thats the right and safe way to go...., I think .., I am no expert.., I am but a humble enthusiast .    So....., again I opt to go with less bore.  perhaps instead of giving up on CCC or going with a steel (That is if you really want the golden gun) then perhaps bore reduction is in order?  A 5.250 breach is actually a pretty heavy gun to move.., lets consider that too for a moment.  Bill will build what dimensions you request and will adjust the cost accordingly to the metal.  I chose the bronze tube......, sure its a bit tough to swallow......, but then again., it lasts ...., and lasts..., and last...., and ?  Your great grand children willl be fighting for it...., at least thats what i am hoping for..., lots of disgruntled family mayhem long after I am gone (I may possibly be in some arguements 100 years after I am gone...., i like that., Its in my nature) . there is nothing wrong with steel ., I have 3 steels ..., since they were cheaper ., I went huge !  but I cant afford Huge in a metal that's 85% copper !!!  So ..., bore reduction.  Actually Civilcannon I am in the middle of a 6 cannon project ., with 4 inch material ., and it was asked of me my reasoning for not going to a golf ball bore......., well the reason is because there just isn't enough meat on 4" stock to justify a bore that big and I have to stay under a certain weight to ship these cannons after they are finish....., so we chose a bore that works safely.

With Bore reduction you get a smaller breech ., easier to move and handle., and cheaper to upgrade to better material ., savvy ?  Another manufacture is going to have to either get your breech / bore measurements either right or wrong as well...., so its really a matter of what measurements you request.  Any particular reasons for firing golf balls?  The 1 1/4 bores were really started because you could use film containers full of concrete....., however with the digital camera .,  film really isnt coming back., so that particular bore size doesnt really have a cheap projo logic to it anymore either.   

My reasoning for 1" bores are I can use a "Do-It"  fishing mold for a 3oz sinker at 34 bux for the mold. 3 oz sinkers provide plenty of recoil ., and the other shooters at the range with AK's and 30/30's are shocked at what my gun can do....., and is sets up quik and it loads quik ., hits hard ., and is loud........., Bronze has its own unique sound as well.   If your interest is in LOUD signal firing ., then obviously the 1.75 is louder that 1.00 however I have been next to a man firing a golf ball..., and my 1" firing lead is louder ..., I believe that is also another effect of pushing lead......., it doesnt take much pressure to move a golf ball.  For example ., my Beer can mortar is much louder again., as a can of concrete is heavy and the powder charge has to become pretty violent in order to lift that concrete ! . Lud volume changes with bore size...., it also changes with projo weight..., however a signal can be fired anywhere ., a projo requires ALOT  of room.

This is just a little food for thought.

Offline civilcannon

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2007, 07:40:08 AM »
Tropico ;
 
Good to hear from you . For the past 20 years or so I have been involved in Civil War reenacting first with the infantry and then with the artillery  and have fired  many  a pounds of black powder in muskets and cannon from 1/2 scale to full scale field guns , In reacting it is always not a good mix to fire muskets or cannon live one weekend and then attend a reenactment the next. Always the possibility of mixing up the ammo. So I guess I am a Nueby with firing ball since it always was discouraged by our organization. Have you ever seen the movie Gettysburg? I was there for the film and after a week off filming, I am in the movie for about 2 seconds  during the Pickets Charge  scene. The 1 hour cannonade from 42 full scale pieces  wasl  the loudest  sound I have ever heard  1 1/4 pound of cannon grade was the tpical load . So: I have heard loud and for now just want to fire, I thought Golf Balls but perhaps lead ball. And I have always wanted a brass or  bronz barrel.

I asked Bill for a price for the 4" bronze tube with the 1'' bore

Thanks Civilcannon

Offline Double D

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2007, 09:51:42 AM »
With the money you save you can have some one build you a round ball mould and you can cast Zinc ballls and shoot them.


Offline Tropico

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Re: Canadian Cannon Co.1/5 scale 24 pdr
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2007, 10:54:19 AM »
I saw Gettysburg ! Excellent  Civilcannon !  Youve definitely played with alot bigger toys than I .,thats for  sure., and youve been in it about 5 years longer as well.  I have no experience being involved with a group or larger artillery., I am envious to be sure.  I am however having fun and very very grateful to be able to save a bit here  and there and  get a sub-scale cannon made for personal entertainment and of course decorative at our beach . The biggest I have is 2/3 scale  3" ordinance rifles from Hern at 2.25 bore..., but to date I have never fired them. I did recently go to a civil-war re-enactment ., it was awesome ., I think I will post the pics. 
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I asked Bill for a price for the 4" bronze tube with the 1'' bore 
  I am still awaiting mine., so i cant show it yet., but I can say " I believe" you will be happy with those measurements .., I dont know.  If your going to make a small field or naval carriage perhaps you'lll want more cannon..., I will say however from personal experience if you are going to do a swivel., probably you wont regret it and will be happy., they work out so well my friends are getting them.  What kind of cannon style and mount are you looking at doing with this barrel
?