45 colt blackhawk loads

[44joe]

Hello, I have a question about a 45 colt blackhawk.  I was looking at Montana bullet works site and was wondering how the 270 gr. SAA would work in the ruger.  I am looking for a load that clocks around 1000 / 1100 fps in a cast bullet.  I use this gun for packing on hikes and fishing trips in backcountry, but would like to be able to use it on deer.  It has a 4 5/8 barrel and packs great in a cross draw holster.  I don't want anything too hot, the cylinger has VERY generous chamber dimensions !  Sloppy !  I slugged the barrel and it came out to be .451.  The forcing cones on the cylinger came out at .454.  Any recomendations would be appreciated.

44joe

[Lloyd Smale]

if your mesurements are accurate id contact ruger and tell then the gun just wont shoot and what you found and maybe they would replace that cylinder. Actually what i would do is not even call them as they will probably tell you its within factory tolerances and live with it. Id just box it up and send it to them with a letter explaining it. Sometimes that works better as if they allready have it there they tend to be more apt to fix it. IF that isnt an option id contact the bullets supplier and see if they could size to 454 for you. I think Frank at Mt. Baldy Bullet Compant casts that same bullet and i believe he will size them to the size you want. If no one will do it id think about picking up a lube sizer and die. You can get them for about 50 bucks on ebay (lyman) and buying your bullets unlubed and unsized and doing it yourself. Stranger things have happened but i dont hold much chance of a gun dimentioned like that ever being a tack driver and my first thought would be to tell you to get the gun right first. Another option and although it will cost you some money would be to pick up a 44 mag cylinder somewhere and have it rechambered to proper 45 dimentions as theres no guarantee the cylinder ruger would give you would be much better. One good thing though is most of the 45 colt cylinders ive seen from ruger were to small to not to big and its easy to open them up. Thats why i question your measurements. What i would do first is take a bullet that is sized to 452 and push it through your throats. It should go through with finger pressure. If it fallls through there to big and if it wont go through its to small. DId you buy it new? If it was used some idiot might have gotten carried away trying to open them up. Like i said ive yet to see a ruger 45 with to big of throats they about all are to small though. Again if your cylinders measurements are correct and you cant afford to fix the gun or dont want to trade if for another. Bullets sized to 454 are your best bet and bullets no harder then about 12 bhn will be your best shot at exceptable accuracy. As to specific loads to get there id post that one on the reloading fourm and specify that you have a large framed ruger. I do take it for granted here that thats what your dealing with as the new smaller framed rugers wont take those kind of loads and from what ive seen so far and dimentioned properly right out of the box.

[Lloyd Smale]

one more thing. If your 451 bore measurement is correct id about bet you have a restriction in your barrel probably where the barrel screws into the frame or where the warning is stamped. Slug your bore again and see if it feels like theres tight spots as you push the slug through.

[jk3006]

Cylindersmith.com will open up those cylinder throats for about $40, and you can always firelap the barrel.  Or perhaps Ruger will fix it themselves like Lloyd said.

[44joe]

Thanks for all the replies, the gun shoots ok with "cowboy" puff loads and some factory 250 gr XTP's, but I didn't bother getting too serious with it becasue of the chambers.  I'm pretty confident in my measurements but I'll do it again just to make sure.  But comparing those chambers to a Taurus Raging Bull in 454 is like night and day.  You can take a loaded cartidge and put it part way into the Ruger cylinder and rock it back and forth, sloppy !  Then I took the same cartridge and put it in the Taurus and a nice no slop fit, I tried this with both factory and full lenth sized reloads.  I know its not a real scientific test, but you can easily tell how loose the factory Ruger chambers are.  I like the 44 mag cylinder idea.  Does anyone know how to locate one, I heard E Bay doesn't sell gun parts anymore.  And also a smith to open up the new 44 cyl.  Its too bad Ruger doesn't sell a six shot 480, my 45 cylinder is probably close !  I forgot to say, it is a New Model Blackhawk 45 colt.  I'm assuming that it was made in 76' because stamped into the barrel is, "made in the 200th year of American Liberty".  Nice little gun, don't want to get rid of it.

Joe

[MS Hitman]

44joe,

You may want to contact John Linebaugh or John Gallagher and ask them about rechambering a .44 mag cylinder  to a tight .45 Colt and rebarreling.  I had a Bisley cleaned up that a previous owner had abused. 

That should go a long way towards improving performance.

[44joe]

once again, thanks for all the replies,
Lloyd I rechecked the cylinder measurements and the slugs that I made.  They all checked out the same.  However, I didn't reslug the barrel to check for restrictions.  I think the barrel being at .451 isn't a huge problem as it can be fire lapped.  The thing that I don't like are the sloppy cylinder chambers.  I took a cast performance 335 WFN GC that was sized at .452, measured it to confirm this too, and pushed it through the chamber forcing cones. Very light finger pressure was all that was needed and the bullet dropped right through.  About the same force it would take to push a key on your keyborad.  Two of the forcing cones were a little bit tighter, but not much more pressure was required to push the bullet through.  I think that the combination of very over spec. chamber dimensions, .454 forcing cones, and the tight bore all add up to a gun that needs proffessional attention.

I like the idea of having a 44 cylinder opened up to min. specs.  But that will make it nessasary to start a new piggy bank.  I really can't afford to have the gun customised at this time; married with children!  I think that I will send it to Ruger first to see if they will fix it.  If they say no, all I'm out is the shipping and I will still have to save for the custom job.  If thats the case I might as well make it a five shot cylinder, and have the ablity to really stoke it up !

Joe.

[MS Hitman]

If you say you can't afford rechambering a .44 Mag cylinder, I'd recommend you leave the five shot conversion alone.  You would do well to contact John Gallagher and discuss a fix with him.  The six-shot .45 Colt loads will handle a good bit.  Besides, a 260 grain hard cast bullet loaded to 900 fps will run slam through a Whitetail on most shots.

[Lloyd Smale]

Gallagher, clements , either linebaugh, bowen, ben forkin, Alan Harton are all smiths that will do it. there prices vary so id find the one that would do it the cheapest as its not rocket science and there wouldnt be a bit of difference in the final product. Finding a cyl might be a little tough now that ebay wont allow gun parts. Id post on ever 4sale section of every interntet fourm i could find and see what you come up with. You should be able to find one for between 50-100 bucks used. It would definately be cheaper to find one yourself then to pick up one that a gunsmith has. I dont know what they would charge to just rechamber one. Its going to be hit or miss as to whether it will drop right in and work and may need a little fitting. But if it was going through the expense of reaming one out to tight specs id want the gun blocked properly and the endshake taken out of it. Probably woundnt hurt to have your forcing cone recut at the same time. That would go a long ways toward making sure it was a shooter when it was done.

[MS Hitman]

Any of the guys Lloyd mentioned are capable.  A friend of mine just had John Gallagher convert a 50th anniversary Flat-top to a .40 S&W with an extra cylinder in 10MM.  John can most likely come up with the needed cylinder and any other parts necessary for the work.

[44joe]

once again thanks guys,

joe

[blhof]

Contact johngallagher1@bellsouth.net  .  He advertises on gunbroker for Ruger Bisley 45lc cylinders.  These are take offs from new guns and are thoroughly checked out.  They usually auction for $75 and he asks for very specific info on your gun; cylinder length, gap ect.. to get a perfect fit.  A friend got one  unfluted and it greatly improved his groupings on an old Blackhawk, he had bought used. It locks up like a new gun now.

[2 dogs]

All this makes me wonder what tool you are using to measure your cylinder with? If you are using a dial caliper you may be a bit off!

When you call around to check with the excellent sixgun smiths we have in the US dont forget to ask about wait time....Alan Harton probably has the shortest at this time and his prices are excellent as is his work. He uses pin guages to measure the cylinder throats....

[Lloyd Smale]

didnt mean to step on any toes but i removed two posts from this topic. Keep the rules in mind guys if you want to post a specific load specify a loading manual that it came from. Even light loads without reference will be deleted. I slip and do it myself occasionaly but a better place to post loads is the loading forum.

[jd45]

IF your chamber throats really are .454", they're already too big. Montana offers the 270SAA in either .452" or .454". I have some of both. They're great bullets, & while they're BHN 15, trying to run .454s at 1000 or 1100 thru a .451" bore might just cause an unsafe pressure condition. I think they're soft enough that the .452s'll bump up to give good accuracy, but if you ever get the wherewithall, I think the best solution is the new tight-chambered, proper-size throated cylinder. Clements wants a year & $380 to rebore my S&W .44MAG 629 to .45 Colt. Harton might just be the way to go. MyBaldy has some BHN 12 .45 bullets in lower weights that might work, too. Good luck, jd45

[CHONGO]

I HAVE 2 45COLT BLACKHAWKS WITH .457 &.449 CYLINDER THROATS BOTH .45ACP THROATS ARE .454

[44joe]

I spoke with John Gallahger and we agreed that the way to go would be to bore out a super blackhawk cylinder.  He gave me a very reasonable quote and the turn around time wasn't bad either.  He said that for the year blackhawk I have,  it's a common problem for the cylinders chambers to be oversize. 

I don't know if I should start a new threat or not, but whats all involved with shipping a revolver these days; insurance, ups, us postal service.

Joe.

[44joe]

Oh, I forgot to say it's a 44 magnum super blackhawk cylinder.

Joe

[jd45]

Chongo, your post is very confusing, to me at least, & you don't say how your guns shoot, which is more important.  You say you have 2 Blackhawks in .45 Colt with .457 & .449 chamber throats. Then, you say both ACP throats are .454". Do you have two convertibles? In any case your guns' chamber throats are all over the map. I'd send them back to the factory & demand Ruger to fit cylinders  in .45 Colt with .482" chambers & .4525 throats, & 45ACP cylinders with whatever spec the chambers should be, & .452" throats, otherwise you may be pulling your hair out trying to get them to shoot accurately. Just my 2 cents, jd45

[jd45]

44joe, the cylinder you start out with doesn't matter so much, as that you end up with a properly sized , ON BOTH ENDS,  .45 Colt cylinder for your Blackhawk. jd45

[blhof]

Check with whom you are shipping it to, they usually have the best way to send it to them.

[Racer X]

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[Racer X]

I think the barrel being at .451 isn't a huge problem as it can be fire lap

ped.  The thing that I don't like are the sloppy cylinder chambers.  I took a cast performance 335 WFN GC that was sized at .452, measured it to confirm this too, and pushed it through the chamber forcing cones. Very light finger pressure was all that was needed and the bullet dropped right through.  About the same force it would take to push a key on your keyborad. 
Joe.

44joe,

I spoke to Ruger earlier this year about my 45 Blackhawk. The factory specs for throats (what I believe you are referring to as forcing cones) and groove diameter are as follows:

   Throats: .450" to .451"

   Groove: .450" to .452"

You might have a constriction, but if slug it from both ends to get a groove diameter measurement at the barrel/receiver juncture and again at the muzzle, and it still measures less than .452, you are in good shape. If you have a constriction, try firelapping.

As for the throats, I believe your's are definitely out of factory spec and I would send the gun back to Ruger and tell them your throats are larger than max factory spec. The reason I believe your throats exceed factory spec is because mine are all .453" and a .452" bullet will not pass through my gun's throats without using a wooden dowel and rubber mallet to drive them through. David Clements opened mine to .453" so I know the measurements are correct.

Then, when you get the gun back from Ruger, the throats will be undersized (less than .452"). You can then send the cylinder to a competent revolversmith and have the throats opened.

[44joe]

Maybe I am using incorrect terminology.  What I was referring to when I said "forcing cones", was the forward end of the chambers, on the cylinder, the part where the bullet sits.  That is where the slug measured .454.  A cast perf. 335 WFN GC @ .452 pretty much drops through.  Now my measurements could be off as I am using a dial caliper, but the fact that they drop through is enough evidence for me that somethings not right.  I'm not even going to bother with Ruger, if they did decide to fix it, then I would still end up sending it someone for work.

 [/quote] Then, when you get the gun back from Ruger, the throats will be undersized (less than .452"). You can then send the cylinder to a competent revolversmith and have the throats opened.

That would be shipping to ruger, who may or may fix it.  Then more shipping to a qualified Revolver smith.

I might as well get it all done at once and be done with it.  John Gallahger said he would take a 44 mag Super Blackhawk cylinder and bore it to tight 45 colt specs, which is what I want and a few other mods.  I'm sure he will check the barrel too, and if it doesn't look right to him, then we'll take it from there.
Joe.

[Racer X]

I might as well get it all done at once and be done with it.  John Gallahger said he would take a 44 mag Super Blackhawk cylinder and bore it to tight 45 colt specs

44joe -- my recommendation to make Ruger fix it and have a smith open the throats was predicated on your previous statement of not having the funds to have a 44 cylinder re-chambered to tight 45 Colt specs. I can certainly understand that, as I just got my 45 Hunter back from Clements. He rechambered a 44 Super Blackhawk cylinder to tight 45 Colt specs. I also just recently bought a new 4-5/8" stainless Blackhawk in 45 Colt and would like to have the same work done to it, but until I get the money, I will leave it stock.

Even with the sloppy chambers, the gun will shoot ok if you don't have a constriction and the bullets fit the throats properly. Tight chambers will give you better brass life. Right now, I separate brass used in my two 45 Colts. Brass fired in the sloppy chambers will fit in the tighter chambers after resizing, but sometimes the case heads have to be pressed in the tighter chambered gun.

[Boxhead]

I use the 270 SAA from MBW in my 45's with great satisfaction. If I owned your gun I would buy the bullets sized to .452" and load them with enough Unique to get the 1000 fps or so you are looking for. An article by Brian Pierce in the April '05 issue of Handloader gives 9 grs of Unique with the 270 SAA bullet (that will actually weigh 282 grs or so) for 950 fps in a New Vaquero with a 4 5/8" barrel. I would expect your gun to shoot very well with said load.

[jd45]

There you go, Joe. You got two people giving you the exact same recommendation.........Boxhead & me. A box of bullets will be a lot cheaper than all that machine work. Problem solved, if it works. If it don't, you can always do it. jd45

[44joe]

Racer X, I  hear ya, about the funds and thank you for the advise.  While I don't have the money for a five shot custom, with a little shuffling of projects, I'll get er done. 

I like the way that load looks, the 270 SAA @ 1000 fps and unique.  I will be using it.  But its the sloppy chambers that really bugs me, and they will bulge the brass will most anything other than cowboy puff loads.

In the mean time, I will get some of those 270 SAA's @ .452 and try them out, @ 1000 fps,  that load should be kind to brass too.

[Racer X]

I like the way that load looks, the 270 SAA @ 1000 fps and unique. 

I have a copy of the article Boxhead is talking about. It's the one Brian Pearce wrote in Handloads magazine that has all the load data for the 270 SAA. I just ordered another 2000 of them today from MBW. If you like, I can send you the article with the load data in a private email.