Author Topic: The rest of the 35 whelen story *** (Read 2096 times)

fanner50 · « **on:** September 04, 2007, 12:12:05 PM »

So the factory says "hard primers" Well not a fact. Long story short extended the fp protrusion to .067 came from factory at .042. Still had a large % of misfires Took one apart and replaced primer with CCI primer still ftf. extended bullet still ftf. Hand-loaded with FP brass Nosler 225 gr bullet and CCI primer still had 1 out of 8 ftf measured shoulder on factory brass and found a % that had the shoulder set back almost.015 greater than the norm. These are the ones that ftf. It would appear that some of the chambers were a little too deep and when the brass is too short in the shoulder its a ftf. Some chambers are correctly cut to near min depth and function perfectly. How to fix? Mill the barrel and set it back to insure min chamber dimentions, or buy and cull all your brass. Problem and cost for the factory so solution discontinue the best chambering they have ever offered. I'm going to send it back and if they don't fix it I guess I'll have to.

wcf3030 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2007, 12:24:05 PM »

Sorry to hear about that.
I agree it has to be one of their best chambered rounds.
I wanted one but I think I'll spare myself the aggravation.

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2007, 12:57:38 PM »

Milling off metal on the end of the barrel is a horrible idea. It changes the hinge pin distance, the ejector recess, the forearm fit, the extractor cam.

The simple solution is to fire form with lubed cases and medium loads or fire form with cream of wheat and shot gun powder using either Winchester or Reminton primers which are soft.

It is most imprtant the cases are lubed so they can elongate to fill the chamber. No rocket science there.

From what I can tell chamber length is most of the trouble and that is very easy to overcome. Wildcatter do this on a regular basis.

CCI primers are known to be very hard amd the hammer springs on the Handis are
on the soft side so the equation is easy to figure out.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2007, 01:17:11 PM »

Yup, what Fred said is the way to go, if you're a handloader, there's no excuse to go the route of changing the chamber dimension and having to refit the barrel. I'd neck them up to .375", then partial neck size to form a false shoulder and fire form them just as I did with the 280 Improved H&R, works real slick, then full length size them to zero headspace and load em up. Add a Wolff spring if you still have FTFs, but with the FP mod, that shouldn't be an issue, I've never had a FTF on any H&R and that's saying a lot with 29 centerfire H&R rifles.

Tim

fanner50 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2007, 01:43:32 PM »

Ok I know as gunsmiths we all have different ideas on how to fix a problem but explain to me how you fire form a case if it won't fire in the first place. From the posts I have read here the factory has extended the firing pin extension to compensate for the head space differences. The real problem is the Remington brass isn't all the same. The shoulder dimension varies greatly causing this problem. I've owned probably 40 of these rifles(H&R/NEF) over the years and this is the only one that this has ever happened with.My point is the factory should make it right by fixing the rifles in 35 Whelen not saying here pick another caliberthat you didn't want. My choice was 35 Whelen they offered it I baught it NOW STAND BEHIND IT

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2007, 01:53:59 PM »

The only way they'll stand behind it is fix the firing pin issue as they did for Scibaer, of replace it with a different barrel of a different chambering just as they did with bajabill since they couldn't fix his. HUNTS got a refund on the price of the rifle he bought cuz they couldn't fix it, they won't replace it with another 35 Whelen barrel because they don't make them anymore.

Read the FAQ articles on fire forming by Fred and handloading for Improved chambered Handis by me to learn how to make the brass work.

Tim

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2007, 01:56:41 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on September 04, 2007, 01:17:11 PM

I'd neck them up to .338", then partial neck size to form a false shoulder and fire form them just as I did with the 280 Improved H&R, works real slick, then full length size them to zero headspace and load em up.
Tim

Tim wouldn't you have to neck the 35 up to a 375 then partial neck size to create the false shoulder? I may be missing something but I don't see how necking to 338 would allow a false shoulder.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** September 04, 2007, 02:18:25 PM »

Heh heh, my bad!!

Yes that would be a good idea!!!

fixed it, thanks!!

Tim

njanear · « **Reply #8 on:** September 04, 2007, 03:38:31 PM »

The .35 Whelen barrel was on my wish list a few years back and when I heard H&R was going to make them again, I was happy. Unfortunately other ventures kept me from sending my receiver in, but luckily it sounds like I missed on a huge chance of being disappointed in the outcome. $:-\$

skifastchad · « **Reply #9 on:** September 04, 2007, 06:24:49 PM »

What are the odds that these rifles are chambered in 35 Brown-Whelen not just plain 35 Whelen ?

I thought the Brown-Whelen had the shoulder about ten thousandths farther forward. Is it possible the factory used the Brown-Whelen reamer and just asked "whats the difference?"

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 04, 2007, 07:49:46 PM »

Quote from: skifastchad on September 04, 2007, 06:24:49 PM

What are the odds that these rifles are chambered in 35 Brown-Whelen not just plain 35 Whelen ?

I thought the Brown-Whelen had the shoulder about ten thousandths farther forward. Is it possible the factory used the Brown-Whelen reamer and just asked "whats the difference?"

I don't think it has a 40 degree shoulder nor is a large of diameter...but...I sure do wish someone would take a chamber cast of theirs and get some measurements to see exactly what they have done..

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #11 on:** September 05, 2007, 05:12:07 AM »

You guys feel free to jump on me if I'm out of line on this, but I'll throw out my idea anyway.

Deleted by Graybeard. I do indeed feel what was suggested is dangerous enough I don't want it on here. GB

fanner50 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2007, 06:03:41 AM »

Well had it boxed to go to the factory but going to un-box. I took two new Rem brass out of the sack and placed them on my bench side by side. Three different guys came into my shop and agreed they could see a significant difference in the shoulder dimension. When compared to a fire formed brass it's even more so. I'm not sure you could chamber a fixed breach rifle to deal with these huge tolerances. A bolt gun is a different story. I may try some Norma brass that they have at Midway and see if the tolerances are closer. The fact of the matter is this is a SUB-MOA RIFLE that I paid $201 for. I've added a Ultra varminter syn stock and a Nikon prostaff 3X9 scope with BDC reticle. All I have to do is make it dependable. You'll excuse me if I don't buy any more Remington 35 Whelen brass though. Paper patching the shoulder is a consideration I had not considered. I expand 300WM to 358 for my wildcat that I developed in 1984 called the 350 Jacob I could probably pull the expander through the new brass and change the shoulder dimension that way. I have about 20 rounds of Remington 200 gr that failed to fire and about 30 that fired just fine so I have a start for reloading.The only real problem is getting them to fire or tearing them down. The saga continues. I appreciate and enjoy the replies and suggestions from all of you. I'll post a picture of the elk I kill with this rifle this year. I am currently under going treatment for the big C and my days are numbered but some numbers have a lot of digits so I'll keep on keepin on. Thank you all. - F50

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 05, 2007, 07:20:09 AM »

Quote from: fanner50 on September 05, 2007, 06:03:41 AM

Well had it boxed to go to the factory but going to un-box. I took two new Rem brass out of the sack and placed them on my bench side by side. Three different guys came into my shop and agreed they could see a significant difference in the shoulder dimension. When compared to a fire formed brass it's even more so. I'm not sure you could chamber a fixed breach rifle to deal with these huge tolerances. A bolt gun is a different story. I may try some Norma brass that they have at Midway and see if the tolerances are closer. The fact of the matter is this is a SUB-MOA RIFLE that I paid $201 for. I've added a Ultra varminter syn stock and a Nikon prostaff 3X9 scope with BDC reticle. All I have to do is make it dependable. You'll excuse me if I don't buy any more Remington 35 Whelen brass though. Paper patching the shoulder is a consideration I had not considered. I expand 300WM to 358 for my wildcat that I developed in 1984 called the 350 Jacob I could probably pull the expander through the new brass and change the shoulder dimension that way. I have about 20 rounds of Remington 200 gr that failed to fire and about 30 that fired just fine so I have a start for reloading.The only real problem is getting them to fire or tearing them down. The saga continues. I appreciate and enjoy the replies and suggestions from all of you. I'll post a picture of the elk I kill with this rifle this year. I am currently under going treatment for the big C and my days are numbered but some numbers have a lot of digits so I'll keep on keepin on. Thank you all. - F50

I'll say a prayer for your complete recovery...Going thru that isn't easy...on you or your family...

As to your Whelen...there is actually there is a way of correcting this issue...If it is the rifle...re chamber it...a simple chamber cast will show you what you are actually dealing with...and is a very simple thing to do...Having that information will tell you what the chamber can be made into...If...it is just a brass issue with Remington's brass..there are ways around that as well...The simplest would be just to use some decent 30-06 brass...and neck it up...or...once you have some fire formed brass...send a couple cases into Hornady...and have one of these dies made for you...end of problem then...http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124004.0.html This is one of the main reasons I got excited when I found out about this die...It eliminates the brass issue for our single shots...and you have a perfectly formed case with the correct head space..

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** September 05, 2007, 09:36:35 AM »

F50, prayers for you and your family, that's got to be a tough row to hoe, my wife and I both have had our turn in the barrel with the big C, her with breast cancer and me with prostate cancer, we've been fortunate tho, it being diagnosed early enough for treatment.

Take care,

Tim

handirifle · « **Reply #15 on:** September 05, 2007, 06:43:35 PM »

Thanks GB, I wasn't sure. Just a ramblin thought bouncin around in my head.

fknipfer · « **Reply #16 on:** September 09, 2007, 05:25:15 PM »

I have a Model 7600 35 Whelen and it doesn't seem to have any problems firing new ammo or reloaded ammo. I haven't heard of any other Remingtons having problems either. Is it a quality problem or just a experience problem with the round. I haven't fired any Handi rifles but have fired Buffalo Classics and they don't seem to have any problems so why really should a 35 Whelen be any exception.

fknipfer

fanner50 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 10, 2007, 06:51:38 AM »

continued-------Took the Whelen out yesterday with once fired brass and 225 gr Nos over 55 gr Rel15 CCI mag primer. All functioned perfectly, crono avg 2578 fps. Finished the box of Rem 200 gr factory and 5 out of 8 ftf. I now have on my bench 14 rounds out of 40 that ftf there were more 200 gr than 250 gr.and one was my own load made from new Rem brass. I also tried some 30-06 Norma necked up to 35 and they went off without a hitch. They actually seem to fit tighter in the chamber than the Remington brass. I'm going to treat this just like any wildcat and find the combo that works. Rifle put three rounds all touching again so I'm not going to give up. I think I'll get a 375 expander and try the shoulder fix before I invest in the Hornady chamber water expander or whatever it's called. This is one that I might just AI the chamber after hunting season. - F50

Tennessee.Traveler · « **Reply #18 on:** September 10, 2007, 08:02:20 AM »

I have used a .358 Winchester in an old model 88 since the mid sixties as my favorite mid range rifle. I had been wanting to get a Whelen but, I guess that's out of the question now. Federal is trying to re-invent the .358 by calling it a .338. Wonder when H&R will make a run with the .338 Federal?

Dick

Sourdough · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2007, 11:53:08 AM »

I guess I was lucky when I got my barrel our of the RMEF run. It is the best and only Big Game gun NEF/H&R ever made. Yes the 45-70 will take down Big Game. But not at the ranges the Whelen will. That extra range is nice when you are shooting dangerous game, something that can come and eat you.

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:40:01 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough on September 11, 2007, 11:53:08 AM

I guess I was lucky when I got my barrel our of the RMEF run. It is the best and only Big Game gun NEF/H&R ever made. Yes the 45-70 will take down Big Game. But not at the ranges the Whelen will. That extra range is nice when you are shooting dangerous game, something that can come and eat you.

Not to be a sour note, but if I was shooting something that could eat ME I'd want more than a single shot.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:42:38 PM »

Quote from: handirifle on September 11, 2007, 12:40:01 PM

Not to be a sour note, but if I was shooting something that could eat ME I'd want more than a single shot.

Or a slow partner that I can outrun!!

rockrat · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2007, 03:59:47 PM »

If you handload, you can seat the bullets so when you try to chamber the round, the bullet will contact the rifling about 10 thou. and when you close the action, your round will be all the way against the breech face. Works when fireforming.

Sourdough · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2007, 08:35:49 AM »

Maybe that is why my Brother-in-laws won't go hunting with me. I only carry Handis or TCRs. I own many bolt actions a semi-auto, and a pump, adiquate for Grizzly. But they are too much bother, too heavy, and I have all the confidence in the world with my single shots.

Plus, it keeps life exciting. Rog