Author Topic: What makes it accurate?  (Read 706 times)

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Offline crow_feather

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What makes it accurate?
« on: September 06, 2007, 08:38:49 AM »
A person said that he tries to replicate the same velocity for cartridge accuracy.  I have seen barrel vibration reducers, and combo units that also reduce recoil and add noise.  The new Handloader Magazine says that certain cartridges need nothing other than standard loading as the are inherently accurate.  Some people are fastidious about their loading methods, such as BPCR shooters who put their 550 grainers out to 1,000 yards.  I have heard of pillar bedding, glass bedding, full barrel contact, no barrel contact, neck turning, case neck trimming, making sure the bullet is straight in the case, crimping, no crimping, neck sizing, Bullet touching lands, bullet .10 off lands, bullet sorting for weight, etc.etc.etc.

What is the truth?  What does make that rifle accurate?
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Offline Davemuzz

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2007, 09:08:57 AM »
For a verbal message of the "TRUTH", make sure your sound is on, and click here: http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=gog&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Few_Good_Men&quote=truth.txt&file=truth.wav

 ;D (This is clean....the kids 'n stuff can be around) ;D

Dave


Offline tuck2

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2007, 09:19:38 AM »
The groups size one gets at any distance is dependent upon various  conditions.  The way the rifle was assembled and the quality of the parts will determine what size groups the rifle shoots.. The same is true with the reloaded ammo. I have owned some Rem-chesters that would not shoot small groups with carefully crafted hand loaded ammo. I now first inspect a used or new rifle and clean the barrel and action. Common tune up work is glass bedding the action, piller beddind, free floating the barrel, adjusting the trigger pull, lapping the bolt locking lugs and recutting or polishing the muzzle. I do not try to develope hand loads untill after the rifle has ben given a tune up. I try to copy the case prep that the bench rest shooters do. The artical in the Oct 07 No. 249 Reloader Mag may well be correct but if I miss I wont to know that it was me ,not the rifle or ammo.  The last rifle I purchased was a Rem 700 Limited 17 Fireball. The fore arm was pressing along the left side of the barrel and the trigger pull was at five pounds. Why wast ammo untill the two conditins are corrected ??

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2007, 10:36:20 AM »
There have been books written about the question you are asking. :o It can be a very long process finding what makes a rifle shoot straight. The two most important things in a rifle is barrel quality and trigger pull. All of the things you mentioned, I have done at one time or another with the exception of barrel weights. I just can't bring myself to hang a blob on my barrel. I believe it helps in some cases, I just can not bring myself to it. When getting a new rifle whether used or new. Like tuck2, I inspect it before I shoot. Clean the action and barrel really well and then lube. While I have it down I look at the bedding and whether the barrel is free floated or not. I usually make sure I start with a free floated barrel, unless it is a rim fire, then i start with a free floated barrel with some up pressure on the end. I will mess with bedding only if I am not getting satisfactory results. I have done full bedding jobs, but will not unless i feel there is an issue there. I can always put up pressure on the barrel end or take it away to find out what works best. I usually adjust the trigger If I can. I do this by stoning the mating surfaces and/or adjustment. I have been known to buy after market triggers to make it better. I am particular about my hand loads. I try to make the cases as straight as possible. I do this by sizing only the necks. I use Lee collet dies when I can and bushing type neck sizers when I can't. I also seat bullets as straight as possible. I use the custom seaters from Forster or RCBS if I am trying to squeeze as much accuracy as possible out of a gun. Some guys like to use hand tools in a arbor press. They do that to again, make the cartridge and bullet  as straight as possible. I do not turn necks unless they are too large in diameter for the chamber. I want my necks to be as big as possible to center in the chamber. That is just me, most bench resters turn their necks to make then as concentric as possible and control bullet grip. I am not that paranoid, but I do want my bullets to start as straight as possible with the bore with out a lot of work. I have recently been uniforming the primer pockets and de-burring the inside of the flash holes. I started doing it because it relatively easy to do with the Trim Mate I have now and it will not hurt accuracy and might make it slightly better. I have shoot some pretty good groups with doing that however. I try to start with the bullets touching the lands if I can. I can always back off if I do like the results. Form there you just have to find what works for your particular rifle. Like I said books have been written about this very subject. Start with a likely bullet/powder/primer combo and work your way up. I use loading books to get me started. As you work your way up you will find the "sweet" spot. If that sweet spot does not meet your criteria then start over with a different powder or bullet. I did not get into a lot of detail, just hit some high lights. A lot of of what I have been talking about will only get you a little gain in accuracy. 3/4" groups verses sub 1/2" groups perhaps. It depends on what you call accurate. There are a lot of guys that are very happy with 1" groups at 100 yards and that is OK if that meets your expectations. You could talk about "inherently" accurate cartridges, but now here we go again spinning off. You can go into bullet drag and wind drift but these are subjects in them selves. The longer I set here the longer the list gets, so I am going to quit. ::) I do not know if I helped or not, bottom line, you have to find out what works for you and what you are willing to do. Good luck on your pursuit of the Holy Grail of one holers. ;D
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2007, 10:53:25 AM »
I almost forgot to mention optics. They are important too. You can have a gun that is capable of .25MOA groups, but if you introduce parallax or scope cant (not straight), you can throw your groups off by quite a bit; easily 1/2" or more. So a .25" gun will shoot .75". Remember the barrel quality and trigger pull, they will have THE most impact on accuracy. The rest is fine tuning. ;D
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Offline Questor

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2007, 11:01:54 AM »
What makes it accurate? Principally, it's the skill of the shooter. Unless there is something fundamentally defective about the gun, then every thing else is relatively minor.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2007, 11:11:28 AM »
I agree with Questor that the guy pulling the trigger makes a BIG difference; but a lever action is not going to compete with a quality bolt gun for accuracy. How many lever actions do you see at a bench shoot? Yes a guy shooting a 30-30 Marlin can out shoot a guy with a good bolt gun, but that is not accuracy, that is a learned skill. A skill that is not easy to do mind you. I really have to have my game on to shoot a .25 MOA group, get a little lackadaisical and bam you are up to .75".
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2007, 01:36:23 PM »
FWIW, I think there's a lot more .5 rifles out there than there are .5 shooters.  That's not to imply that I'm a .5 shooter.  I just hear about some folks doing some god awful stuff to their rifles and ammo to make them as perfect as possible but won't put in the trigger time (live and dry firing) to tighten up the weakest link.

Offline KN

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2007, 02:00:50 PM »
beemanbeme hit that one on the head!  Take a few buddies that think they are good shots and take turns shooting the same gun with the same ammo and it will become clear. Especially if you are shooting handguns.   KN

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2007, 09:36:24 PM »
Like I said the guy pulling the trigger makes a big difference, but it has nothing to do with accuracy of the gun/loads. I happen to enjoy hand loading so I am probably more fussy that most. I do not use progressive loaders I load one at a time with very good equipment. When I shoot, I try to take all of the human element out as I can. I do this by shooting in solid bags or a one piece adjustable rest and let the rifle free recoil. This does not simulate field conditions, but does find out the accuracy of your rifle/loads. Shooting straight is harder than a lot of people think for a variety of reasons, but it does not have any thing to do with the accuracy of the rifle/load combo. crow_feather was asking about accuracy and mentioned several techniques to get there. I agree that you can have a very accurate rifle, but if the guy pulling the trigger does not do his part then it is all for naught. ;)
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 05:29:45 AM »
A person said that he tries to replicate the same velocity for cartridge accuracy.  I have seen barrel vibration reducers, and combo units that also reduce recoil and add noise.  The new Handloader Magazine says that certain cartridges need nothing other than standard loading as the are inherently accurate.  Some people are fastidious about their loading methods, such as BPCR shooters who put their 550 grainers out to 1,000 yards.  I have heard of pillar bedding, glass bedding, full barrel contact, no barrel contact, neck turning, case neck trimming, making sure the bullet is straight in the case, crimping, no crimping, neck sizing, Bullet touching lands, bullet .10 off lands, bullet sorting for weight, etc.etc.etc.

What is the truth?  What does make that rifle accurate?

All of the above...or none of the above...Each rifle is different and must be treated individually...This is why when folks make broad statements like "neck sizing makes more accurate ammunition" I have to laugh...it may for their particular rifle...but not some ones else...Hand loading and tuning a rifle are reactionary...meaning...try something...then correct if needed...It may be the rifle having issues...or it could be your ammunition...or it could be both...or...it could be you causing the problem in your shooting technique...My point is...it may only take changing 1 thing...or it may take several things to make a rifle be accurate...

beemanbeme hit that one on the head!  Take a few buddies that think they are good shots and take turns shooting the same gun with the same ammo and it will become clear. Especially if you are shooting handguns.   KN

While it is true...most folks don't put in enough trigger time...However...having 5 different guys shoot 1 rifle and trying to correlate that into any kind of accuracy statement is not possible...That same rifle may not fit those 5 individuals worth a durn...and if it doesn't fit them well...they won't shoot it as well as they can others that do fit them properly......

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 05:52:38 AM »
I wonder how many people have a rifle that fit's them properly? My guess is not many. We buy our rifles over the counter and for the most part shoot them with the stock as is. Most work done to the stock involves bedding, not fitting. Some go out and buy an aftermarket stock that's a drop in and shoot it as is. Damn few people buy a rifle then go have it fitted.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2007, 06:01:59 AM »
Some well founded info on obtaining good accuracy here.  Others include the quality of the barrel, how it's installed and chambered,the scope mounts, trigger quality, precision of the bullet, how the load is tuned to the rifle, etc.  In other words, it's a system in which all components add to the total, nothing stands alone but any one can spoil the results.  I've been loading for more than 40 years but I'm no "expert", not in the same league as those who work for Handloader at all.  But even experts sometimes say something foolish.  

They said:  "...certain cartridges need nothing other than standard loading as they are inherently accurate."  

Bah.  Such bland statements, taken alone, are worthless.  Of all the factors involved in accuracy, the case is perhaps the least important, IMHO.  Yes, shorter cartridges have a slight advantage, if we can realize it, but many other factors over shadow the tiny advantages of case shape by a wide margin. It appears they failed to mention any choices that are "inherently accurate", wonder why? And, if that's true, there must be some cartridges that are "inherently inaccurate".  Wish they would tell us which ones are which! 

In top level Bench shooting events, the top cartridge is the short, fat 6 mm PPC.  Yeah, it's king because of it's inherent accuracy.  BUT those BR guys have extremely high-quality equipment that allows for its small advantage to be visible, including the use of 24 to 36x scopes and $300 rests.  Without that, they would never see the 0.020" or so it is better than several other BR rounds. The rest of us simply don't have that quality in our deer and varmint rifles so comments about inherent accuracy dangle invalid hopes before us, "If I only had a ...., I could shoot great groups."  Maybe but not likely, and then not because of a magic cartridge.

Believe me, if there were any STATISTICALLY VALID hunting cartridge accuracy differences when fired from factory rifles, the magazine writers would tell us and have the data to prove it!  I doubt there is more than a quarter minute difference between the absolute best and worst hunting cartridges, as such, and that's no difference at all in the field.  Those of us shooting factory rifles with off-the-shelf hunting bullets will realize NO differences in accuracy directly attributable to the shape of the case!  

A few cartridges do seem to be easier to develop a good load for, but similar accuracy can be attained with most cartridges if we work to find its "inherently" accurate load.   I believe a carefully constructed .30-30 cartridge with a good bullet will shoot out of a bolt rifle with a properly fitted, high quality barrel as well as any other hunting round fired from a similar quality rifle.  






 
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2007, 11:23:29 AM »
I have read the other's input. What every one is trying to say here is correct. Number one here...Accuracy is a relative thing. What is accurate to a deer hunter may not be to a bench rest shooter, in fact it may be down right horrible. I especially liked Mac11700's response. He is absolutely correct. I tried to answer basically the same way, but I think he did it better than I did. I tried to stay away from the "inherently accurate" issue. I hear that so often, it makes me ill. You pick your cartridge for the purpose at hand. Then you do what you can to get it where you want it. If 1" at 100 yards is what you are looking for and get it, then it is accurate. If you are looking to get a 3 shot group under 2" at 100 yards with your trusty 30-30 and you are, then you have an accurate gun/round. After all you will probably not be shooting anything over 200 yards and a 4" circle is well within the deer's kill zone. If you are going to go past 200 yards, then you need a different gun. If you are trying to shoot .5 MOA with that same 30-30 and can not achieve it, then it is not accurate. What techniques you use to get to where you want to be vary, just like Mac said. And believe me shooting little groups is not easy, there are so many things that come into play. It is much easier to get a quality gun to shoot 1" groups than a .5" group. You can get a run of the mill rifle that shoots 1" right of the box with factory ammo (it does happen). Getting that same rifle to .5" can take allot of experimentation, techniques, trigger time, etc. It is not worth it to many folks, after all there is not a deer that will not fall to a rifle that can shoot 1 MOA out to 400 yards or more. So is that accurate? I think so for it's intended purpose just as the 30-30 would be.
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Offline Questor

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Re: What makes it accurate?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2007, 12:02:32 PM »
My mantra for accuracy is "Bench shooting tests the gun. Field shooting tests the man."
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