Ouch! Sprained my eyeballs!

[Questor]

I was just reading the new American Rifleman and saw the article on the new T/C bolt action rifle.  Hopefully it works well for them.

The mystifying thing about the article was that they came up with a "new" cartridge for it called the 308 T/C. The cartridge, by all appearances, is ballistically and physically identical to .308 Winchester. Length is identical, velocity is identical. I don't get it. Why?

Was this an April Fool joke or was I dreaming. I just about sprained my eyeballs when I saw that!

I've been asked whether I ever developed any wildcats and the answer was yes, the .45 Questor. It's a 45ACP cartridge shortened .001" and otherwise loaded to 45ACP specs. Seems like T/C got some inspiration from me on this one.

[quickdtoo]

Actually the new round is called a .30 TC, developed by Hornady, the Icon is also available, or will be, in .308(why the 30 TC too?? ), .243 and .22-250. I agree, it's kind of another 308 Marlin Express!! Chuck Hawk's opinion on the 30 TC is pretty much right on with mine.

Thompson/Center presented their new "Icon" bolt action centerfire rifle, as well as their Triumph muzzleloader. The Icon is a beautifully stocked rifle, a bit heavy for a short action, and has a safety array (with an 'independent bolt lock') that was clumsily done, along with a senseless (but increasingly popular with gun makers) cocking indicator. Equally puzzling was the new ".30 TC" cartridge that touts "30-06 performance in a short action," something the .308 did over fifty years ago. The .30 TC cartridge strikes me as a waste of time and brass, serving no purpose and filling no niche. Apparently a very well made gun, the "Icon" strikes me as a bit homely, heavy, and unrefined compared to, for example, the stunning Browning A-Bolt Medallion models.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shot_show_2007.htm

Tim

http://rrarms.com/catalog.php?action=1037&brand=TCICON

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=20801434e9de43eaa148c95de656d3b3&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=8ad275e0ae1855adc9d330d3490d503a

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon.php

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Icon_Manual.pdf

[LaOtto222]

I believe it was Gray Beard that said these companies bring out new cartridges to get people to buy their product. There are some that want the newest thing on the market whether it makes sense or not. Once they buy that new rifle, they hope to make a sale on another latest and greatest one that comes out.

[Questor]

Thanks for the reminder about Hawks. I always enjoy reading his opinions. Here's another:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/30_t-c_first_look.htm

[Davemuzz]

Chuck Hawks opinions are just that. His opinions. Several years ago I signed on to his web site for, I think it was 3 months...or whatever the shortest "paid member" time was. Since it was touted as "The Definitive Firearms Site". Well, we all make mistakes.  Firearms site....yes. Definitive....hardly.

Chuck has his favorite guns and accessories...and they go 'way back.... and nuthin on the face of this planet is going to change his mind about 'em today no matter what else comes out or how good it is.

Shooting Times did an article on the T\C Icon and then in another issue the did an article on the S&W i-bolt. The Icon they liked. The i-bolt....still needed some fixin....'cept for the barrel that was made by T\C  .

The new TC 30 round was developed to give a 30 caliber bullet 3000 fps muzzle velocity from a short action 30 caliber cartridge with a 150 grain bullet. This is something no 308 load can safely do. For some folks, a short action bolt throw is more desirable than the long action throw of a 30-06.

Don't tell Chuck that....he will end up writing an entire post about why those same folks use the wrong kind of spark plugs in their lawn mowers too.

Dave

[Questor]

Davemuzz:

I just ordered a .308 for my son and have been looking at load data for 150 grain bullets. There are quite a few loads for 22" barrelled guns that are between 2950 and 3050 fps. My references are the major books.  That's why I originally posted this thread. It seemed odd that the 30 T/C doesn't do anything that the .308 doesn't already do, and it's dimensions are so similar you could easiliy mistake the two cartridges.  I think it will be around for a couple of years and then will be dropped.

I still like Hawks and find his opinions to be about as valid as anyone else's in the gun trade.  He'll often mention the dark side of a gun that you don't see written about in the mags. For example, the Benelli Black Eagle shotgun was one we were looking at buying because it was ergonomically the best of the autoloaders we tried. Hawks said it had surprisingly hard recoil. A little more checking confirmed this. We didn't buy it and I'm glad we didn't. We really wanted a softer shooting gun, so a gas gun was the answer for us.

[Swampman]

I agree with Chuck.  I believe the rifle and the cartridge are doomed to failure.  T/C is entering a field flooded with outstanding & well established products.   Neither the .308 Marlin Express, nor the .30TC will last very long.

[Questor]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the rifle is doomed to failure. With T/C's dedication to building good products, I'm sure it will be a good quality product with lots of value to the customers who want custom features without a true custom price. The mating of stock to rifle seems very innovative and hopefully makes for a very stable zero-holding gun.  $1000 for a rifle used to be a lot, but it's not anymore after you get past the bargain guns. Today $700 to $800 is pretty normal. A couple hundred more for some cosmetics and good engineering touches.

Heard a good comment about T/C while chatting with an avid muzzle loader who had used Knight rifles for years before getting an Encore muzzle loader. To paraphrase him, the Knight was built like a toy, while the Encore is built like a fine rifle.  He really thought very highly of the Encore. T/C owners typically have a high regard for their guns.

[Davemuzz]

When S&W introduced the 460 handgun, the nay-sayers made statements that the gun would shatter because of the gain-twist rifling and it wouldn't be long before Smith would be burried in lawsuites because of this unbelievable gaff of a production gun. Yeah,,,well uh..huh.

I said that T\C, in conjunction with Hornady (maybe I didn't say in conjunction with Hornady...oh well, I'm sayin it now) developed the TC 30 to produce a short action 30 caliber round that would produce 3000 fps.

Now, I've looked at the Hodgdon reloading web site http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp  and My Hornady reloading book, 6th edition, and my Barnes Manual....3rd edition, and my Nosler book...5th edition, and not one of these publications list a load for a 150 grain bullet that will shoot at 3000 fps or greater. They show a few that will be close, but none that will be there. They show 125 grain and 110 grain bullets that will do 3000 + fps, but no 150 grain bullets.

And, the other issue is, just because you have a 308 load that will reach 3000fps or better, doesn't mean that your 308 will actually be accurate shooting that load. The T\C Icon will be MOA off the shelf shooting the 150 grain bullet at 3000 fps.

There are a bunch of guys out there who do not reload and who do hunt. I wouldn't nay-say the gun or the round. Least you may end up with the "gain-twist shatter group" guys. Oh....where are those guys today anyway? Probably at the range shooting there 460VR's...huh?  Well, 'cept for maybe Chuck.....he don't like Smith's anyway. No matter how good a product they produce. Now or ever, Chuck will tell you they are a POS. Good thing the world doesn't listen to the "definitive bla bla bla site".

Dave

[wncchester]

None of us are prophets from God so maybe we err.  With that said, I think the new .30 Marlin will last and will eventually cut significantly into the sales of .30-30 rifles and ammo. 

Many of us bolt shooters have little love for lever guns but those who like them really like them a lot  (I love and use both, each has a place). The only downside for many who sort of like levers is the relatively poor ballistics of the usual cartridges.  The new Marlin round changes that, it will take awhile but I think it will catch on if they give it time to grow. 

Not so for the .30 TC.  Being a virtual duplicate of already common cartridges gives it a tough task to capture a worthwhile corner of the all ready crowded market for bolt guns.  But, the Icon rifle itself may succeed, modestly.

[Davemuzz]

Not so for the .30 TC.  Being a virtual duplicate of already common cartridges gives it a tough task to capture a worthwhile corner of the all ready crowed market for bolt guns.  But, the Icon rifle itself may succeed, modestly.

Very Prophetic.

[Questor]

I love these bull sessions. Lots of fun!

I thought the 460 S&W was the best handgun hunting introduction in a long time. Super cartridge. Wish I had one!

Back to the 30 T/C, I still don't get it. If I were that concerned with higher velocity in a short action rifle, then I'd get a 300 WSM. It just seems odd that really experienced gun people would design the 30 T/C when they know that there's no practical difference between 2850fps and 3000fps. I think the article in American Rifleman said that reloaders shouldn't expect to hit 3000fps because of the powder type used in the factory ammo. I interpreted this to mean that they're using the "light magnum" technology. The same marketing lingo, like "lower perceived recoil" is being used.

Since I was so focused on hand loads, I find that both Winchester and Remington publish velocities of 2820 for their 308 150 grainers. As a hunter, I perceive no practical difference between 2820 and 3000 in velocity. They're both good out to 300 yards. 

The load I can recall that was over 3000 fps was in Speer 13, and uses Varget.

I still think the cartridge is doomed.

[Davemuzz]

Questor,

You may very well buy the 300 WSM knowing the ballistic information about the cartridge, and knowing that you can load different powders to obtain different velocities for a bullet that you wish to shoot from a gun that is chambered for the 300 WSM......however, right now....you can't get THE ICON in 300 WSM!

So.,...if you want the T\C Icon....you can get it in 308, or the new TC 30 (or 30 TC..or whatever), 243 and 22-250...but...you can't get it in 300 WSM. Marketing, marketing, marketing.

I have a nephew who just bot a new gun. He did a bunch of research and decided to buy a 325 WSM. He just had to have a 325 WSM. Now, does he need a gun that's going to throw a 150 grain bullet a minimum of 3,000 fps to a maximum of say 3,200 fps to hunt whitetail deer? Does he need a magnum rifle anything to hunt whitetail deer? Probably not. But he has one.

I've been hunting whitetail since 1968. I've never owned a magnum....well, unless you count my 22 magnum, 44 magnum, and 357 magnum.....and all the deer I've shot seemed to have fallen over. I'll have to check my arrows and see if any of them are magnum.

I think your point is well taken. If you are an experienced shooter, and have a good understanding of ballistics and bullets...your going to look at the 30 TC and say.....ho hum....there are other calibers that can do  the same. But, if your "average Joe hunter" now that's a different story. You and I can talk any "average Joe hunter" in or out of the TC 30 (or 30 TC...gosh....I get confused). And so can the salesman behind the counter.

Dave.

[Lloyd Smale]

short mags, ultra mags, 308 replacements, leverrevelution ammo, revolvers shooting 2000 fps all are answers to problems that never existed. I cant for the life of me see buying a gun chambered in a round that is only chambered in one gun that does nothing another existing round doesnt do. Especially in this case as a handloader doesnt have access to the powders they use at the factory and cant get the same performance capability out of the gun so if he wants performance out of it he has to buy there ammo too. Its probably a fine rifle and looks great but another thing that makes me wonder is why they made it in a heavy 24 inch barreled gun. that round might have taken off in a nice light little bolt carbine. My guess is its the only way they can advertise 308 performance out of it. Better rounds have bit the dust allready. Whens the last time you saw a new gun chambered in 300 savage a round that is about identical. I just cant see them selling enough of them to insure ammo avaliblity over the long haul. Guys that want to carry around a gun that big and heavy want magnum performance. Thats why rounds like the 250 sav 257 roberts 358 win 6.5 and 350 rem mags and many other fine rounds are about dead now.

[Davemuzz]

Lloyd,

Wait!!! The 6.5x55 Swede isn't dead yet!!! I just bot a savage action that I'm going to barrel in that caliber.    Besides, there are too many mausers out there for it to go away completely.

Dave

[Questor]

I like that 6.5 Swede a  lot too. Very nice.