Author Topic: Is the .38 special enough self-defense gun? (Read 9637 times)

454Puma · « **Reply #60 on:** October 05, 2007, 10:16:17 AM »

All I carry is handloads! And I'm not changing that fact. If the shoot is deamed justified it will not matter and if it's not justified I don't think I'll worry about using reloads then either!

Skunk · « **Reply #61 on:** October 05, 2007, 02:37:06 PM »

Quote from: Dusty Miller on September 24, 2007, 06:00:27 PM

When I started this thread I laid down some pretty clear specifics, yet nobody wants to deal with what I wrote. (i.e., "use a gun you can hit with", "a hit with a .38 special is better than a miss with a .44 mag").

Hey Dusty,

Use a gun you can hit with. A hit with a .38 Special is better than a miss with a .44 Mag.

Skunk

Dee · « **Reply #62 on:** October 07, 2007, 01:57:57 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 04, 2007, 01:14:40 PM

The second case was a policeman who carried hand loads in his approved gun . A bad guy grabbed the gun and pulled it causing it to discharge in his face . The officer was made to look like a RAMBO type in court by the DA. the officer did win after expert wittiness came but he still had to go thru. it .
You may be correct about the new laws , but they have to be tested in court before we will really know for sure !

I have seen FEW cases in officer shootings where the officer DIDN'T "go thru it". It is the CREED OF THE DEFENSE LAWYER to go after the witnesses, AND victims. I was investigated for saving my own life on three separate occasions, over a 20 year period. Our legal system knows no bounds in the way of hypocrisy, but then again neither do many police agency investigative teams.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #63 on:** October 08, 2007, 01:25:46 AM »

most will choose to limit attacks on themselves and others will try and weather the storm , but it makes sense to protect yourself from question if at all possible . We see many states now passing laws to protect the citizen in a justifiable shooting
I can't help but wonder if the shooter will find it harder to prove he was in the right ?

Dee · « **Reply #64 on:** October 08, 2007, 03:41:01 PM »

I believe it is getting better in some states, although district and county attorney attitudes vary even in these states with improved laws. My own home state, Texas, has adopted and made law the "Castle Doctrine" Law, which says you DO NOT have to retreat from a threat. Agency attitude toward citizenry is much to blame in the area of self defense, as some police agencies would behave as the German Polizi if they were permitted. These "high n tight" hair cuts, squad boots, and fatigues were just coming into vogue, as I was winding down my career. Although I wore them due to my particular job, I believe it is INTIMIDATING to the average citizen to be confronted by officers ROUTINELY dressed this way, and as a Sgt (retired) I KNOW, many officers GET OFF on this look, and LIKE the PARA MILITARY attitude toward the private citizen. Not all do, but many, especially the younger ones.
To show how it can be worse, I once rolled around on the ground for several minutes with a Mexican gang member, whom was trying to pull a StarFire 9mm, out of his shorts to shoot me with it. I had the gun and the shorts, and eventually got control of the pistol. He complained to my agency that I threatened to shoot him and three of his fellow gang members with his own gun, and they accepted the complaint, and I was investigated for three months. I of course did threaten to use the gun, as I had it, and there were 4 of them. I was of course cleared with a raised blood pressure, the gun was found to be stolen and had been used in several drive bys.
Scary ain't it.

Mikey · « **Reply #65 on:** October 09, 2007, 01:12:30 AM »

Dee: I think the real question most are asking is what didya do with the guy's shorts?

Sorry.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #66 on:** October 09, 2007, 01:52:39 AM »

Dee if he had carried a Glock with out a safety , you could have given him a thrill !

Dee · « **Reply #67 on:** October 09, 2007, 02:57:39 AM »

Well Mikey, that was an ugly remark about the shorts

but, I asked for that one. SHOOTALL, I think THRILL would be an understatement! It was exciting enough with the pistol that was used. I was much younger then, and it was STILL pretty intense. The guy got put out of commission some years later I understand.
I am however assuming you guys got my point on some law enforcement agencies, and court systems. In a fight for your life, I don't believe they should be a consideration, but by experience I know they are, and it's scary.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #68 on:** October 09, 2007, 07:01:11 AM »

Would you agree Hollywood has screwed up most peoples view of life and death self defense ?

Dee · « **Reply #69 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:13:34 AM »

Well SHOOTALL, peoples view of life and death self defense, is a place to START, on what Hollywierd has screwed up. How about our children's minds and sense of morality, as a nation in general. And that is just a start.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #70 on:** October 09, 2007, 08:35:12 AM »

YES !
I will show my age but i was taught that my freedom ended where yours began and same for you !
so if i attacked you or put you in a bad situation it was my fault if you found it necessary to stop me !
It wasn't your fault ! you had nothing to prove !
and this will make you laugh - you were considered the victimm NOW AIN"T THAT NOVEL !

corbanzo · « **Reply #71 on:** October 10, 2007, 01:46:44 PM »

Hell, most people think - through the media that the glock is the only gun that exists, and only comes in 9mm.

Well, I guess it used to be a smith and wesson revolver in .38 special, before semi-auto's gained popularity.

Unless you were Charles Bronson... then it was the .458 lott, and the .475 Wildey mag. Too bad he didn't have more affect on how hollywood affected the minds of the viewers... what a good world it could have been... hahahaha.

Mikey · « **Reply #72 on:** October 11, 2007, 10:35:27 AM »

Dee: your points have always been right on target.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #73 on:** October 12, 2007, 01:43:23 AM »

The first gun in death wish - a 32 long !

papajohn428 · « **Reply #74 on:** October 13, 2007, 11:01:39 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 12, 2007, 01:43:23 AM

The first gun in death wish - a 32 long !

I may have to get me one of those........according to that movie, it's like a Death Ray! And did you see how it threw those bad guys through the air?

Papajohn

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #75 on:** October 15, 2007, 01:23:25 AM »

Guess its like a 6.5 power all out of proportion to its size !

454Puma · « **Reply #76 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:27:25 AM »

SHOOTALL
There you go two case -NO Convictions! So the use of reloads are not a factor! The first case -yea the guy got off -I still think he killed her -I don't see how if she put the gun to her own head how there wouldn't be powder residue-ALL powders leave residue Period!!! Doesn't matter if there reloads or not-the powders we use to reload are the same as manufactures powders!! That second case is that the LEO WAS NOT authorized to use reloads for duty! Broke policy by using them!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #77 on:** October 28, 2007, 08:29:14 AM »

454 PUMA , ya better pull some factory loads , they all don't use canister powder . Hornady would be a good place to try first , as many of their offerings are non reproducible by the hand loader .
I believe that both stories show the extra problems that arose from the use of non standard ammo ! and that is the point many have related before . Why add to your trouble ?

454Puma · « **Reply #78 on:** November 06, 2007, 11:12:37 AM »

SHOOTALL
Because using reloads is not illegal! Bullets are bullets whether I make them or some big company does -it doesn't make any difference! The thing about powder yes the big ammo companies use bulk powders and they are some what different from what we reloaders use -I'll say it again all powders leave residue!! All have special tags in them to Identify there composition(type)! Apiont blank shot into anything will result in residue and burns!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #79 on:** November 07, 2007, 02:16:11 AM »

and a 375 mag will leave more than a 38 wc loaded light ! and that was the problem in the case ! hey i didn't have anything to do with it just passed it along so the wise could gain from it !

kennisondan · « **Reply #80 on:** November 07, 2007, 07:33:40 AM »

The 38 special is enough; I would use modern ammunition with a 110 or 125 hollowpoint pushed fast : factory corbon, handloads - fast as handled well...
I have no problem with a 38, assuming all the regular advice, placement, etc.
modern ammunition made the 38, 380 and other pocket sized pistols plenty for take down of a human...
the examples of drugged up crazies merely emphasizes that some of the one stop shot idea is : mental... a lot of folks drop or stop once shot with anything, or cut with anything.. the others emphasize shot placement : the only thing that stops instantly is neurological damage : spine ( every thing below it stops working, so upper spine is fastest); Brain ( even a fried-egg-this-is-your-brain-on-drugs- brain that is disrupted by pass through fails to function and the stop is made..)
there is no telling with body shots unless the damage rivals a shotgun contact wound..
JMTC
bottom line is : yes.... think this addresses your question, right ? I have not had to kill anyone yet, so my info is my opinion, but a serious opinion, for sure.

dk

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #81 on:** November 07, 2007, 01:31:59 PM »

Geeze Louise, look what I STARTED!!

kennisondan · « **Reply #82 on:** November 07, 2007, 04:38:29 PM »

remember gentlemen that attorneys use the facts to ask questions to their advantage ... no matter what the facts are... it is the SPIN that matters... and I can tell you from experience that it sounds good and makes people sweat and makes for lots of urban myths... but that crap don't cut no ice, (in legal talk)...

either the reloads were made, to be sure to kill, or they were used to ensure accuracy so to protect the innocent, or to control pass throughs to protect the innocent; or they were reloaded due to pre-meditation and salivation over the thougt of a 'clean shoot';

As an attorney on some days during some hours, : I would not worry about reloads... I would expect for everything and anything to be used against you -and for you ... and I agree the courts and juries are idiots, but the good thing is they do assume that everyone is lying anyway, at least a little.....
--and that part is correct most of the time..

it is definite that in most instances in order to remain elected DAs will indict and pursue the case...whatever the facts... and defense attorneys will have to test the sufficiency of the evidence and question all the "different truths" that are put forth..

But : in most cases : the bad guy goes down, the good guy goes free, and those arguments that shake you to the core are recognized as just smoke and mirrors... it is rare, but sometimes the smoke and mirrors expose a bad actor / "victim" out there who tried to skirt the pond, and gets hung up in the nets the defense attorney throws...

Ihave travelled to another state to defend a man who shot another in defense, and won it .. argued that he had the right to kill him and did the best thing : shot him in the leg just enough to stop the attack.... which was true. but he was screwed if he did not have competent counsel who believed him... he was not from there, and a bit different from the local folk...

there are really cases of an innocent being charged and defended to a good conclusion..
it is a screwed up system... but

I will use reloads -- and I will shoot to kill... and I will then "lawyer up" and tell the tale - the only tale - later....once I have discussed it with my attorney and thought it through...

because, when you are told that all you say can and will be used against you ... that is a clue to shut the hell up.... they are not there to exonerate you... that is your and your attorney's job... the da's job and the LEO's job is to gather evidence meant to convict you... no matter what... god and the judge sorts out the facts in their respective jurisdictions... in due time..

so shoot reloads .. shut upif you use them in defense.... expect to defend in court, if there is enough to go forward on against you --without your help, of course... and you may get sued in civil court, as well... but you and I will be alive .. alive and still fighting beats dead and your family awaiting vindication...

in my legal opinion : any thoughts other than shooting and shutting up, are plain foolish and will likely cost you dearly in sweat or time .. the LEO do not need your help to convict you.. they do not write down things with a spin to help you.. quite the opposite in my experience.. so that is my opinion..
you will all get a bill if you listed your addresses in the identification/members information areas...
dan kennison

sort of like what bill says :
"I am an attorney and I do not >give<legal advice" .... I do sell it... however and take guns, cycles, knives, boats, and alcohol in trade... lol

wahtcha need ... watcha got ?

jimster · « **Reply #83 on:** November 08, 2007, 05:42:34 AM »

I don't worry about carrying reloads, in the State I live in self defense is self defense...reloads, a big Buick, crow bar...as long as it's self defense it doesn't much matter.
If some prosecutor wants to give me a hard time (lately they have given nobody a hard time here) I'll worry about it then.
"Well your honor, the gun was designed in the year 1911, don't much care for them fancy new assault type weapons the police are using" LOL!
Just kidding....it is best to shut up for sure.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #84 on:** November 08, 2007, 08:39:05 AM »

you hit the nail on the head ! WHY if you have a choice use anything or say that might remotely cause you a problem ?

Almtnman · « **Reply #85 on:** November 08, 2007, 11:09:23 AM »

Quote from: kennisondan on November 07, 2007, 04:38:29 PM

so shoot reloads .. shut upif you use them in defense.... expect to defend in court, if there is enough to go forward on against you --without your help, of course... and you may get sued in civil court, as well... but you and I will be alive .. alive and still fighting beats dead and your family awaiting vindication...

This sounds like a good argument in court.....on wanting to stay alive!

Leading up to it.... Your honor I had a pistol with some bullets in it and I used it to stay alive just like I would have if I had used a knife, pickax, shovel, claw hammer, 2x4 or lug wrench.

kennisondan · « **Reply #86 on:** November 08, 2007, 11:53:24 AM »

well done.
dk

jcn59 · « **Reply #87 on:** November 09, 2007, 05:34:08 AM »

I found this discussion helpful. It surprises me how many people who know better but still try to talk themselves out of an arrest without having an attorney present. Hope it never happens to me.

randyb · « **Reply #88 on:** November 23, 2007, 02:02:09 PM »

Is at .38 'enough' gun to be an effective self-defense weapon? Yes. Are others better? Maybe. This depends upon the ability of the shooter to accurately place a bullet and sustained fire if multiple agressors, FTS occurs. For that matter a .32 acp, .380 acp is 'enough', depending on a persons needs.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #89 on:** November 23, 2007, 06:58:14 PM »

OK .38 is enough gun now! In the early 1900's the standard was .38S&W. A Short little round that shot a 148 grain lead round nose bullet a whopping 700 fps. The British used this round with a 200 grain bullet at 630 fps all though WWII. The Special and the Mag were designed to increase velocity with the same lead round nose or heavy jacketed bullets. The army had problems with the .38 Colt in the Philippines with drugged and wrapped tribes men. This is the start of the story where Browning invented the .45 acp. But we will not go into a full History lesson here.
The need for more speed was to beat the cars of the time and the .357 was born in the late 20's. Heavy steel and thick plate glass were what the police of the day had to deal with. Fast forward a Hundred years. Now we have a whole new batch of projectiles that are designed for personal protection from the 110 grain HP to the 158 +p loads. The .38 has enough power to do what you want it to do out of a 4inch or longer tube. (The Hollow points do not open up real well out of the 2 inch guns as the scars on my left leg will attest. Glad the 110 grainers did not open too. Still was not pleasant! And if someone else points a 2" snubby at me I'll run!) When I shoot the Detective Special (2") at my local modified Steel / IDPA shoot the 130 grain FMJ bullets do not have the poop to move some of the swingers, the 4" or 6" guns I also have do with the same ammo. I think you may have the same problems with a sub compact 9 or 40 if you go that route as the short barrels do not wring out the needed velocity to open up the hole in the front of the bullet.
Evan Marshall wrote a book Street stoppers where he looked at a large number of shooting with a given round in the chest and gave it a one shot stopping factor. 9mm ball ammo was around 63% and .45 ACP Ball was 64% and the .38's were from 50 to 80% depending on design. He only looked at the load and not the gun firing it, so most of the .45 and 9mm data was higher due to the long barrels in most of those guns. The book was written in the late 80's or early 90's if I remember right. Someone out there has a copy and if they remember how to do a book report they can look up the copyright date. The grandaddy of them all was the 125 grain jacket hollow point .357 mag with a 97-99%. Some of the.38 +P and the +P+ loads come very, very close to the velocity of the 125 Mag load. Make sure your gun is +P rated. My advice is to figure any of the defensive loads are in the 75%+ range and shoot anyone at least twice to make sure you get over 150% ONE SHOT STOP. Only kidding. If you need to shoot, shoot till the attacker stops! Marshall also tells a story of two guys shooting it out in a boarding house, one with a 1911 gold cup in .45 ACP and the other with a little Jenning .22. The .45 was loaded with ball (FMJ 230 grain) and the .22 had CCI Stingers (Hyper velocity 32 grain). The guy with the .45 shot the guy with the .22 seven times. With his slide locked to the rear, the guy with the .22 shot him once. Dead guy on the floor with a .45 in his hand and a hole in his heart, and the other guy took two buses to the hospital and lived. Moral of the story: Shot placement is everything! And Reload and shoot till your attacker is no longer a threat.
If you feel more comfortable with something else. 9, 40, 45, get one. .44 special, 45 ACP or even 10mm/ 40 if you want a revolver. The most important thing is to feel confident that you can hit what your aiming at and that it will go down. If you need the gun there will be a lot of yelling and moving. Go shoot in a few IDPA or Tactical shoots or work on moving and shooting at your range. The time clock is pretty good at increasing your adrenaline. No matter what you get, shoot it a lot. Hope this was helpful.
McDuck.