Is the .38 special enough self-defense gun?

[Dusty Miller]

I keep hearing this theme being trumpeted about and I just have a ton of trouble buying into it.  I know, I know, its been argued to death yet there are still lots of folks who keep asserting that the .38 spec. is all the SD gun you need.  Two things trouble me.  The first is that virtually EVERY law enforcement agency in the USofA has dropped the .38 and taken up more powerful weapons. Maybe they just had a lot of extra money in their budgets and decided to spend it or lose it?  The second is that while I and most folks I know would, no doubt, go to the ground in a heartbeat if shot with a .38 spec. there is a certain class of people who will not.  I'm referring to doped up criminals whose systems are supercharged with PCP or meth and those whose systems are deadened to pain with the big H.  Some of these guys throw in a strong dose of alcohol and they are well neigh onto unstoppable.  Why would anybody in his right mind want to attempt to stop an attack from one of these guys using a 125 gr. bullet traveling at 1100 fps when the same bullet fired from a .357 mag. can rip thru tissue at 1400 fps (mv from a 6" barrel, according to my Speer manual).  Can the argument REALLY be made that 1100 fps is just as effective (stopping power wise) as 1400 fps using that same bullet?  A casual glance thru just about ANY reloading manual on the market will turn up a number of superior loads, in many calibers, that make the 38 spec. look down right "mousy" by comparison.  Yeah, I know, some people just flat cannot handle .357 mag. recoil and if that's the case then carry the .38 spec but I'm discussing straight ballistics here and "all other things being equal" is the call of the day.  Do you REALLY want to face an intruder at 3:00AM with that .38 spec. when a 5" .45 ACP will throw a 230 grain hollowpoint at 1000 fps (+P load)?  (Yeah, yeah, I know, I should be using a shotgun!) Or how about that .44 mag. tossing a 165 gr. HP at 1500 fps.  Can you REALLY argue that point?  I don't know, sometimes I think I'm living on a different planet than some people when it comes to SD firearms but I intuitively understand that bigger and faster means more damage (up to a point) when it comes to stopping criminal attacks and more damage means quicker stops about 90% of the time.  Yet, there's still that bunch...................................

[jhm]

Well YES it is, and I have said for a vary long time that their are alot of people carrieng a handgun that they cant handle accurately, I own and shoot about every caliber outthere and am 61 years old and have learned that I personally can shoot and recover more accurately with a 9 mm. over all the 40 S&W/ 45ACP/ 38/ 357/ 44 mags out there, I do on occasion carry a walther ppk in 380 and havent felt under guned yet.   JIM

[SHOOTALL]

First i like and carry a 38 ( 5 shot bodyguard ) , it ain't no 357 mag PERIOD ! but it is light and easy to carry all day ! now it is debatable as to it being better than the 9mm which was the first auto many switched to for more ammo on hand in gun ! not a bad idea ! at home i wouldn't limit my self to the 38 or any handgun for that matter ! ok alot of folks get wrapped up in one shot stops , the 357M holds the record as tested most likely because more data exist for it ! but that said if the 357 is say 94% a one shot stop what would ya do in the other 6% of the shootings ? if ya got any sense ya keep shooting ! so do the same with any handgun 38 or otherwise !
the guy on pcp ,I watched a film where a small guy on pcp took a 230 gr. hydro shock in the chest , then took the policemans gun and beat him ! it took 3 policemen to get him under control , he died later so no gun is going to be effective in a case like that all the time ! now its important to first have a gun , and a gun that is easy to carry will be with ya ! that's where i believe the light 5 shot shines , its a good blance of being able to carry long periods of time and acceptable power ! if you expect trouble stay home , if you can't carry a bigger gun that trip !
and a hit in a good place with a 38 is better than a miss with any super gun !

[Dee]

I'll take a 38 special +P loading in either 125 grain jacketed hollow point or 158 grain jacketed hollow point ANYTIME, over ANY 9mm, in ANY bullet configuration.
My next choice OVER that would be a 357 magnum (no not the 357sig they are NOT the same) in 125 grain jacketed hollow point, and my next choice would be the 44 special in just about any bullet configuration.
All of these in revolver, as that is what we are talking about. Gun writers have done much to confuse and mis-inform the public at large on self-defense weaponry, while promoting themselves and product manufacturers that cross their palms to do so.

[Almtnman]

About all I can add is; a .38 special will kill you just as dead as a .357. 45acp .44 mag or most any other caliber in those ranges if the person using it knows how to shoot. I worked for a while in LE and been to more killings than I can count and saw people killed with everything from a 22 caliber pistol to a 12 gauge shotgun and everything in between that range and they were all dead. Velocity is not what does it but be able to hit the right spot accurately does. I went to one shooting that a perp was shot 5 times through the chest with a 41 magnum and he only spent a week in the hospital. After a thorough investigation of what happened, it was determined that two things happened that didn't kill him. First; he was too close on the officer that shot him and second; the bullets went through so fast that they never had time to expand and do enough damage. The good points of that shooting was; he didn't get a shot off with his shotgun as the officer got his shots off before he could pull the trigger.

I normally carry a 45acp myself for my defensive weapon and one thing that I noticed, I can hit the target much better and more times with low velocity hand loads of mine than I can with full house loads and hitting the right spot is what it's all about. I have also noticed that when I shoot my old 1944 S&W Victory model .38 special that I can almost stack the bullets up on each other at short range. So in reality it's not the caliber of what you want to use, but being able to shoot what you have.

If you want a revolver that makes about the best defensive handgun you can carry, look around for an under-rated Charter Arms Bulldog .44 special and you'll have something that will do it all.

[Lloyd Smale]

I always laugh when people claim a round isnt good enough for self defense and ask them if they would like to stand 10 feet away from one and get shot! Have a gun ANY GUN! That is my thought. A 25 acp is much better at 10 yards then a stick or a knife. Lots of souls burning in hell that were put there by a 38 special.

[BIG Dog454]

Are we talking self defense? or gun fight!?? I feel that for self defense a 38, 380 even a 32 should be sufficient. Now if I were going to a gun fight I'd want all of the firepower I could get.  I carry either a 38cal 5 shot revolver or a 380 KelTec with 6 in the mag and 1 in the tube, I don't think that any thug will argue while looking down the barrel of either one.  Would you argue when someone is pointing a 380 or a 38 at you?  I usually call these my leave-me-alone guns.

[SHOOTALL]

gun fight or self defense ? if i have to defend myself i want something that will make who ever is hurting me to stop and not start back ! at the crack of the gun ! a dead man can do alot of harm if he takes a few moments to figure out he is dead ! IMHO !

[gundownunder]

Here in Australia we don't get to carry a handgun for self defense, if someone points a gun at us we call the police  .

So my opinion is purely based on anecdotal (sic) information.

Wild Bill Hickok used a .36 cap and ball colt as a defensive handgun and it worked well until someone shot him in the back.
Ned Kelly did pretty well with a .31 and a .36 cal cap and ball colt
A .44 magnum is a rip-snorter of a man-stopper but totally useless if the first shot misses and you have to pick the gun up off the ground to fire the second shot.
With my Ruger single six .22 I can put 6 shots into 3 inches in just a few seconds and if that 3 inches is centered around some feral punks eyeballs he won't have any choice but to quit what he's doing because at the very least he wont be able to see.

The best advice I've read is
"use the most gun you can shoot comfortably and accurately"

Bob

[jsoukup]

,I watched a film where a small guy on pcp took a 230 gr. hydro shock in the chest , then took the policemans gun and beat him ! it took 3 policemen to get him under control , he died later so no gun is going to be effective in a case like that all the time !

In college in a criminal justice class, I watched a film where two police officers were trying to subdue a man with some mental issues. He attacked them with a crow bar. One of the officers was female, she shot him three times with a 357 before he knocked her down and took her gun, shot her once and killed her. The other officer emptied his gun (357), reloaded,.. I forget all the details, but by the time it's over, the officers had put 15 rounds (a couple of reloads) in the guy, including three or four to the head, before the guy stopped swinging the crowbar beating the crap out of the police. They showed a picture of the body when it was over, it was so shot up, it wasn't recognizable as human. No drugs where found in his body, he was just crazy.

The point of showing us the film was to point out that just because you shoot someone, they don't necessarily go down, no matter what you shoot them with.

[blhof]

There was a heavy wt boxer in the 60's that had been shot by a Texas highway patrol with a 357.  He was apparently drunk and tried to take the gun away from the officer.  He stopped his attack and asked the officer to take him to the hospital.  There was an article in our paper about it back then.  He lived to fight many more fights.

[Dee]

Are we talking self defense? or gun fight!?? I feel that for self defense a 38, 380 even a 32 should be sufficient. Now if I were going to a gun fight I'd want all of the firepower I could get.  I carry either a 38cal 5 shot revolver or a 380 KelTec with 6 in the mag and 1 in the tube, I don't think that any thug will argue while looking down the barrel of either one.  Would you argue when someone is pointing a 380 or a 38 at you?  I usually call these my leave-me-alone guns.

Trust me my friend, I have been in front of and behind the pistol. Self defense and the gunfight, are one in the same. Both are life or death, both are gut wrenching and gut testing, and both have the same consequences. You can put a collar on a coyote, and name him Spot. But he'll still kill your chickens. As far as arguing with someone pointing a gun at me? You damn right I argued. I call mine pistols.

[COR]

Are we talking self defense? or gun fight!?? I feel that for self defense a 38, 380 even a 32 should be sufficient. Now if I were going to a gun fight I'd want all of the firepower I could get.  I carry either a 38cal 5 shot revolver or a 380 KelTec with 6 in the mag and 1 in the tube, I don't think that any thug will argue while looking down the barrel of either one.  Would you argue when someone is pointing a 380 or a 38 at you?  I usually call these my leave-me-alone guns.

First off, if you are headed to a "Gun Fight" you are wrong, go back home.Anyone whose been there would never take a handgun as a primary weapon,GET A RIFLE and call all your friends with rifles. The only reason that handgun comes out in a no crap gunfight is to fight to another rifle. Now in the realm of self-defense, you should also never pull out your handgun as a way of intimidating an attacker.  That is not why you carry it, if it is drawn, you should be shooting.  I have always believed that all the numbers and statistics are just that.  A 22LR is better than nothing and along those lines a hit with a .38 is always better than a miss with a .45.  Just my 2cents.

[Dee]

COR, what you speak of IS reality. If given the choice I would not have engaged in my first encounter with a hand gun. After living thru that one, I CERTAINLY would have not taken on TWO opponents with a handgun given the choice on the second. One must put philosophy aside, and go for REALITY. Carry what you are willing to stake your life on, REGARDLESS of your enviorment.
A shotgun will go far in winning a fight, and FORGET THE MYTH that bad guys will CRINGE AND WILT at the mere sound of th pump shotgun. This is HOGWASH, some will not, and I have PERSONALLY met a few.
When you pull that pistol, shotgun, or rifle, I was damn willing to use it, as experience has taught me that some will force you to, just to see if you will. Mortality is not as important, or perhaps realized by some. This is always a consideration.
Planning for a self-defense situation is pointless, outside your home. It will come unexpected, suddenly, and most of the time no warning. Practice, training, and mind set, is what will win the fight, if it can be won. Caliber, and bullet brand, WILL BE SECONDARY, but some are better than others in this respect.

[m-g Willy]

I went to one shooting that a perp was shot 5 times through the chest with a 41 magnum and he only spent a week in the hospital. After a thorough investigation of what happened, it was determined that two things happened that didn't kill him. First; he was too close on the officer that shot him and second; the bullets went through so fast that they never had time to expand and do enough damage. The good points of that shooting was; he didn't get a shot off with his shotgun as the officer got his shots off before he could pull the trigger.

Sorry to inform you ,but who ever determined this don't know much about ballistics.
A  bullet loses vel. as soon as it exits the barrel.
The closer to the muzzle the target is the more impact it will recieve.
If the perp was farther away there would be less chance of the bullet expanding.



Willy

[Almtnman]

I went to one shooting that a perp was shot 5 times through the chest with a 41 magnum and he only spent a week in the hospital. After a thorough investigation of what happened, it was determined that two things happened that didn't kill him. First; he was too close on the officer that shot him and second; the bullets went through so fast that they never had time to expand and do enough damage. The good points of that shooting was; he didn't get a shot off with his shotgun as the officer got his shots off before he could pull the trigger.

Sorry to inform you ,but who ever determined this don't know much about ballistics.
A  bullet loses vel. as soon as it exits the barrel.
The closer to the muzzle the target is the more impact it will recieve.
If the perp was farther away there would be less chance of the bullet expanding.

Willy

Well, since the perp wasn't farther away, explain to me why didn't 5 shots from a .41 magnum not do any more damage than it did at close range? I'd like to know the actual answer to that.

[m-g Willy]

I went to one shooting that a perp was shot 5 times through the chest with a 41 magnum and he only spent a week in the hospital. After a thorough investigation of what happened, it was determined that two things happened that didn't kill him. First; he was too close on the officer that shot him and second; the bullets went through so fast that they never had time to expand and do enough damage. The good points of that shooting was; he didn't get a shot off with his shotgun as the officer got his shots off before he could pull the trigger.

Sorry to inform you ,but who ever determined this don't know much about ballistics.
A  bullet loses vel. as soon as it exits the barrel.
The closer to the muzzle the target is the more impact it will recieve.
If the perp was farther away there would be less chance of the bullet expanding.

Willy

Well, since the perp wasn't farther away, explain to me why didn't 5 shots from a .41 magnum not do any more damage than it did at close range? I'd like to know the actual answer to that.

Either the bullets wasn't fast enough to expand or was to heavily constructed to expand on the target.
Being farther away would only lessen the chance to expand.


Willy

[papajohn428]

Is the 38 enough?  Lordy, I sure hope so, I wear one at work every day!   

I cut my teeth on the 38, and while there are better rounds for self-defense, the 38 is better than it's ever been.  I've been testing bullets in newsprint and Duxseal for 20 years, and the ammo companies have made some remarkable advances in bullet technology since Lee Jurras got it started with Super-Vel in the 60's.   Everyone has a load they feel is the best, my preference is for the Speer Gold Dot, the snubby flavor.  Made for a 2" barrel, they do some serious damage out of the 4-inch I'm issued. 

American police forces switched from the 38 to other rounds for one major reason............FIREPOWER.   The gangstas were all carrying hi-cap 9's, and the rank and file cops demanded something to even the odds.  So we got 9's and then the 40, and later the 357 SIG.  Some forward-thinking agencies are going to hi-cap 45's, and I think it's great.  But if you shoot a 38 well, practice regularly, and can reload from a speedloader in under five seconds, you're not far behind the curve.  If it was up to me, I'd carry something else, but I don't feel the 38 is anemic.  It's been around for 109 years, and it wouldn't be the choice of so many gun-smart folks if it sucked!

Papajohn

[FourBee]

For personal self defense?   I carried a .38 in Nam.   My buddies carried .45's just in case they didn't get a square shot they hoped the big chunk of lead would knock'em down.   But that didn't always work either.   The .38 is adequate.

[Almtnman]

I've been testing bullets in newsprint and Duxseal for 20 years, and the ammo companies have made some remarkable advances in bullet technology since Lee Jurras got it started with Super-Vel in the 60's.   Everyone has a load they feel is the best, my preference is for the Speer Gold Dot, the snubby flavor.  Made for a 2" barrel, they do some serious damage out of the 4-inch I'm issued.
Papajohn

Papajohn, I always liked the Super-Vel ammo and used it back when I carried a revolver on duty. Then it sort of vanished off the shelves and I never did find out what was compatible with it. Is the Speer Gold Dot about the same as the old Super-Vel?

[Dee]

Almtnman, a good load of H110, in the neighborhood of 22 grains, behind a 125 grain jacketed hollow point will start getting you in the neighborhood of the old Super Vel loadings. It is a stopper.

[Almtnman]

Thanks Dee, I'm going to give that a try. I have some H110 on hand also. Just have to pick up some 125 grain jacketed bullets.

[Graybeard]

Nothing is really quite like the old SuperVel stuff but some of the products from small specialty makers like COR-BON and Buffalo Bore come as close as it gets these days. Nothing from the big guys comes even remotely close.

In the old days the standard was a 158 grain at 1550 fps supposedly from a 4" revolver. I'm not sure since I didn't have a Chrono in those days but from my 6" barrels I'm pretty sure it came darn close to those numbers. The .357 ammo of today is not so much more than a .38 special +P was in days of old. I tend to still reload the round to those levels of old personally but won't quote load data to do it. My guns have used many tens of thousands of rounds of such over the years with no noticable ill effects to them or me.

I think the real reason for changing was more that the manufacturers these days are chambering some mighty small and relatively (in comparison) weak guns to the round like my S&W M60. I might stoke it with them for SD use but wouldn't want to use many of them in practice in that small gun. But in my S&W 66s I don't even mind practicing with them. Still the 586/686 is a far better platform for regular use of them.

[m-g Willy]

In the old days the standard was a 158 grain at 1550 fps supposedly from a 4" revolver. I'm not sure since I didn't have a Chrono in those days but

Now thats what you call a MAGNUM!


Willy

[SHOOTALL]

that was before lawyers found a way to mess with ammo companies !

[Dusty Miller]

When I started this thread I laid down some pretty clear specifics, yet nobody wants to deal with what I wrote.  Go back and read the original post please and then respond to the specific points I made rather then just regurgitating back the same old platitudes we've all seen a hundred times before (i.e., "use a gun you can hit with", "a hit with a .38 special is better than a miss with a .44 mag").  Can we have some REAL thinking here rather than a review of all the old arguments that've been posted here ad naseum?

[FourBee]

   Hey Dusty:
     All the points you covered not only show what more firepower can do, and on paper it looks great.   But reality just doesn't play that game.   A criminal doesn't have to be on a drug, alcolhol, or demon posessed.   A person with high adrenalin can be just as difficult to stop as those others.  So one just has to go with what he's comfortable with for SD and hope God is on his side.
When a 30cal. machine gun burbs till its barrel melts at a human wave attack and you're blowing all their guts out and they don't go down, God help us.

[Almtnman]

When I started this thread I laid down some pretty clear specifics, yet nobody wants to deal with what I wrote.  Go back and read the original post please and then respond to the specific points I made rather then just regurgitating back the same old platitudes we've all seen a hundred times before (i.e., "use a gun you can hit with", "a hit with a .38 special is better than a miss with a .44 mag").  Can we have some REAL thinking here rather than a review of all the old arguments that've been posted here ad naseum?

The answer to your question is, Yes it is enough.

The .38 special has been used as a defensive gun as far back as before WWII successfully by members of the military and for many years by just about every police department on the planet. One of the reasons for police departments changed over to semi-automatics was made because of of the Miami shootout that the FBI had and the shooters were using semi-automatics and the FBI had revolvers. I don't think that an individual would be involved in that type situation in the near future. Some police officers still carry 38 specials only they now carry speedloaders instead of bullets in bullet loops on their belts. A lot of security personnel also carry them. Most cities that required a .38 special to be carried by their officers did so because of safety reasons in that they didn't want magnums used in urban areas that might ricochet all over the place.

So, yes, the 38 special is good enough for self defense. But if one feels that it isn't, there are other choices in calibers and handguns that can be used individually as a personal choice. So basically the real question should have been, can a 38 special be a good defensive gun if the person behind the trigger knows how to use it proficiently. A person that does not practice with what they use cannot jump up to a bigger caliber or caliber with more velocity and expect better results. Use what you have, practice a lot, know your gun, what it will do and it will work.

[Savage]

Dusty,
In my opinion (Worth what you paid) there are many rounds that are ballisticlaly superior to the .38 as a fight stopper. The reason LE agencies went to the semi auto, was to correct a perceived lack of firepower with revolvers. Bullet development in the .38 lagged behind the bullets for auto loaders for years and until just recently when some better bullet designs were introduced. One of the major factors is lack of .38 stopping power is the short barrels normally used in this caliber. Until some major break thru in propellant development, that will probably not change. For duty carry or home defense, I'd go with something heavier. For ccw, I often carry a lesser gun than the .38. (.380) No doubt in my mind, if I were carrying a 4" revolver as a primary, it would be .357 or larger! To sum it up, I would be ok carrying a .38 snubbie with the proper loads, most of the time!

Savage

[SHOOTALL]

several police departments do still issue the S&W chief's special as a back up gun , i guess most switched for round count in the weapon , 6 vs.. 13 or more , i watched a film where a guy on pcp was shot with a 230 gr. hydro shock in 45 cal he beat the cop , it took 3 more cops to get him cuffed , he died later at the hospital . Had a 38 been used and the spine hit it would have been different !
are there better rounds than the 38 sure just as there less effective ones , is the 38 a good choice sure but you need to look at the gun also ! a 5 shot 38 is a good pocket gun , easy to conceal , will shoot from a pocket and cycle to the next round !
is the 38 a magic bullet that will work 100% of the time no as no other gun is either !
now those figures you gave with regard to the 38 vs. 357msg. in a 1.9 or 2 inch bbl like most concealed carry guns have you will be hard pressed to find a load that will give you those numbers , in reality the 38+p and the 357 are much closer in speed , however the 357 will exhibit a bit more flash as it will have alot more unused powder to flash with !
in my 38 i load 158 lead hp ( i don't expect a jacketed bullet to expand at that speed ) THE FBI LOAD as it is called , i am sure there are folks who can walk away after being shot with one but not sure how many can absorb 5 and keep attacking ! the bottom line is if you got room to carry an 870 Remington go for it but if concealment is Paramount the 38 has a place ! and no my house gun is alot more powerful cause i have more room for the 870 !
no hand gun is ideal to have in a fight ! but not having one is less prudent !