Is the .38 special enough self-defense gun?

[Cheesehead]

Shootall makes some good points about a 38 revolvers ability to cycle under extreme circumstances, shot placement and the fact that no single round is a perfect fight stopper.

Cheese

[Almtnman]

Let's not forget the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of women out there that carry a 38 special snub nose in their purse everyday for self defense.

[woodchukhntr]

I don't have experience like some of you do, but I use a Charter Arms undercover in .38 special when needed (very rarely).  I try to stay away from where I might need it, but you never really know when stuff might hit the fan!  I stay away from reloads, though.  Any DA or lawyer for the shot guy (if he survives) will nail you to a wall if you use reloads.  It's the old "factory ammunition was not good enough, he used handmade ammunition designed to kill" argument.

[Dee]

I don't have experience like some of you do, but I use a Charter Arms undercover in .38 special when needed (very rarely).  I try to stay away from where I might need it, but you never really know when stuff might hit the fan!  I stay away from reloads, though.  Any DA or lawyer for the shot guy (if he survives) will nail you to a wall if you use reloads.  It's the old "factory ammunition was not good enough, he used handmade ammunition designed to kill" argument.

That's not necessarily a bad point woodchukhntr, however, the old adage of "Better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six" has credence also. It would depend I suppose on one's confidence in the available loads in factory configuration, and one's on ABILITY, to turn out RELIABLE reloads.

[SHOOTALL]

woodchuckhntr gave the best advice when he said he tried to stay away from where he might need it ! we should all do that when possible ! the part about reloads , sad but true just look at most jury's would you want any negative ideas addressed to them about you ?
i have this one thought that comes to mind every time reloads come up , i go to the range with my hunting gun to practice ,i leave the range and its loaded with my hunting load reloads and on the seat as i drive to a location i hunt ! as i get out at the parking area a couple thugs try to rob me , they have guns and say to give them every thing or they will kill me ! i get lucky and win the fight ! how would this play out in court ?

[woodchukhntr]

In that case, probably in your favor since you were obviously going hunting and that was the ammo you had.  If you were driving around the city at night it would be a different story.

A friend in his 60's with health problems carries a .22 auto when fishing.  He was approached in the parking lot by a couple of tough-looking guys who didn't look like they were going fishing.  As soon as they saw the gun they turned around and left.  I imagine that a .45 would have more impressive, but the .22 worked just as well.

[SHOOTALL]

most likely that's what happens most of the time and it goes un-reported ! seems that's the best out come of a bad situation ! criminals are predators plain and simple ! they know to go after the weak or ones not watching , they don't want to be hurt themselves most of the time but add drugs or alch. beverage and you get the stupid ones who are bullet proof !

[m-g Willy]

All I use are reloads.
Because I can't afford factory loads!
I think that the reload in defence is a myth and have never heard of a case where it mattered.
I even posted once if anyone ever heard of a case where it came into play
No one had any knowledge of any case where it mattered.


Willy

[Jerry Lester]

All I use are reloads.
Because I can't afford factory loads!
I think that the reload in defence is a myth and have never heard of a case where it mattered.
I even posted once if anyone ever heard of a case where it came into play
No one had any knowledge of any case where it mattered.


Willy

Same thing here. I've searched very hard, and have never found a case where it mattered. I did though see instances where HP v/s SP, or FMJ was brought into the argument.

[SHOOTALL]

there was a case written about by Massad  A  where a guy had really light reloads and his wife used them to commit suicide , they did not leave powder burns like factory loads would have and the guy was convicted of her murder but won on apeal after expert wittnesses came in , if ya can't afford a 15 dollar box of 38 spl. how would you pay for expert wittnesses ?

[williamlayton]

What is the difference in size between a .38, .357, 9MM---how about a .38 super or a 9X23.
I would say the case is the difference and the case contains powder--more or less.
The weight of the bullet can be changed.
You can shoot a .357 slug in a 9MM.
Speed is important for penetration.
Weight and size are important for impact/stopping.
Neither one will give a written guarentee in EVERY situation.
A .45 is very good.
A 9x23 is very good as is a .38 thru a .357.

I would agree to not walking into a dark alley in a slum late at night---but a wal-mart parking lot during the day can be equally dangerous.

A Barrett is about as good as it gets--size wise--heavy on the hip however.  
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

the 38 , 357 and maybe the 38 supper ( depending on the date the bbl was made ) have .357 dia. bullets .
the 9 , 9X23 And 357sig. have 356 dia bullets .
the shape of the bullets differ also and some say this is the reason for different results with  them !
shooting a 357 slug in a 9mm maybe , getting reliable feeding in a simi-auto is another thing ( not an option on a self defence weapon )
some 45 rounds are good others not so ! typical for all cal.
the 357 mag. is still king , i would expect the 38 super would be next ( provided the bbl is of new manf. with closer spes.  than the old ones ).
the barrett , yes a bit much for the belt no doubt , and close quaters !
but plenty stopping power for sure !

[Dee]

All I use are reloads.
Because I can't afford factory loads!
I think that the reload in defence is a myth and have never heard of a case where it mattered.
I even posted once if anyone ever heard of a case where it came into play
No one had any knowledge of any case where it mattered.


Willy

I would be in agreement with this, as I have heard it for YEARS, but know one could produce any case law. It was passed around a couple depts. I worked for and a sheriff's office also, but no one could come up with anything other than theory.

[Almtnman]

All I use are reloads.
Because I can't afford factory loads!
I think that the reload in defence is a myth and have never heard of a case where it mattered.
I even posted once if anyone ever heard of a case where it came into play
No one had any knowledge of any case where it mattered.


Willy

I would be in agreement with this, as I have heard it for YEARS, but know one could produce any case law. It was passed around a couple depts. I worked for and a sheriff's office also, but no one could come up with anything other than theory.

I have often wondered if that was some sort of economic agenda that the ammo manufacturers had gotten out. I have heard it for years about reloads, but have never found any court decisions that backed it up. My way of thinking was like somebody else posted earlier. What if you had been target practicing and only had reloads in your pistol and then approached by a thug and you had to use what you had at the time. It's like you don't have time to go home or the gun store and get a box of factory fodder, use what's available at that time.

If there ever has been a official court case against reloads, I would like to read it from it's source to convince myself.

[Robert357]

Why would anybody in his right mind want to attempt to stop an attack from one of these guys using a 125 gr. bullet traveling at 1100 fps when the same bullet fired from a .357 mag. can rip thru tissue at 1400 fps (mv from a 6" barrel, according to my Speer manual).  Can the argument REALLY be made that 1100 fps is just as effective (stopping power wise) as 1400 fps using that same bullet? ..........Do you REALLY want to face an intruder at 3:00AM with that .38 spec. when a 5" .45 ACP will throw a 230 grain hollowpoint at 1000 fps (+P load)?  ....bigger and faster means more damage (up to a point) when it comes to stopping criminal attacks and more damage means quicker stops about 90% of the time. 

<P>
Call me old school, If given the choice I like 200 to 300 grain bullets.  If you read the old study that the military did when they decided to go to the 45 caliber, it really had little to do with the velocity and little to do with the caliber.  It had almost everything to do with the bullet weight.  Around the turn of the Century, bigger caliber and heavier bullet went hand in hand.  They still can, but with modern ammo, they don't need to.  I really like 357 Magnum handloads with real heavy bullets, not the light weight 125 gr ones.  I like my 44 Rem Magnum with heavy bullets.  I like my 45 (Long) Colt with heavy bullets. 

There use to be some 38 Caliber British 200 grain bullet loads that were considered pretty potent.  I would much rather shoot a 38 Special with a heavy 200 gr bullet than a 115 grain 9mm.  In a word, yes a .38 Special is enough of a self-defense gun.

Having said all this, I also understand the value of a light weight easily concealable handgun and have a PA-63 in 9x18 Mak.  Its bullet is way too small, but I alway feel like I can just keep shooting until I run out of ammo.  The 38 Special and the 32 Auto were standard military and police rounds in North America and Europe respectively for decades.  There were both good compromises when weight and size were issues. 

Shot placement, Bullet expansion, penetration are the things I think make the most difference.  The godfather to my youngest son was a policeman shot in the shoulder with a lightweigh 347 magnum bullet.  The bullet just produced a surface wound and fragmented on impact.  The policeman quite the force but has full use of his arm and shoulder.  A heavier and more solid bullet would have done much more damage.

[Mikey]

Almtnman:  you said "I have often wondered if that was some sort of economic agenda that the ammo manufacturers had gotten out. I have heard it for years about reloads, but have never found any court decisions that backed it up. My way of thinking was like somebody else posted earlier. What if you had been target practicing and only had reloads in your pistol and then approached by a thug and you had to use what you had at the time. It's like you don't have time to go home or the gun store and get a box of factory fodder, use what's available at that time.

If there ever has been a official court case against reloads, I would like to read it from it's source to convince myself." 

I can not find any record of any court cases in which hand loaded ammunition was used as a basis for any charges against the person who used it.  My guess is this notion was a 'gladhand' that Massad Ayoob gladly gave to the ammo makers for all they gave him whenever he hyped a new handgun and ammo.  This is just his 'expert' opinion, (which he will gladly charge you for...............).

Robert357 said:  "There used to be some 38 Caliber British 200 grain bullet loads that were considered pretty potent.  I would much rather shoot a 38 Special with a heavy 200 gr bullet than a 115 grain 9mm.  In a word, yes a .38 Special is enough of a self-defense gun." 

The Brits developed the 38/200, which was a 38 Smith and Wesson cartridge with a 200 gn bullet at 660'/sec from a 4" Webley service revolver.  The Brits used this to replace the 455 Webley as they felt it had the same battlefield combat effectiveness ass the 455.  The 38/200 was one of the favorites of Col. Charles Askins who preferred either the 38 Special equivalent to the 38/200 or the 45 ACP for his work. 

I use a Winchester factory load of 3.8 gns of 231 powder under a 200 gn semi-wadcutter for 770'/sec (stated velocity).  The same slug can be hand loaded to higher velocities if needed, and is also used in my 357s over a Winchester powder charge of 12.4 gns of 296 as a hunting load.  Mikey.

[williamlayton]

There has never been a case presented on any place that I have found too substantiate a fear of using reloads. I doubt there is.
Most all I have ever read used factory for one reason--more assurance of ignition and discharge.
I know that many reload and can do it better than a factory--so I am not saying anybody is stupid for using a reload.
Not all of us trust ourownselves in this department, however---at the range yes.
I think, just IMO, the 9X23 is superior too the .357---but it is not worth the argument.
Blessings

[Almtnman]

One other factor that has often entered my mind about the reloads. I can and do buy the same bullets for reloads that factories use in their factory produced ammo. Sometimes, I use the same powder that they use and maybe the primer, but a lot of times, I might use a different powder to get better results, more accuracy etc.

Now what makes me wonder is; if I laid down some of my reloads alongside some factory loads and picked them back up later, how would I know which was the reload and which was the factory load and how would a lawyer determine the difference? If he got expert opinion to determine that difference, one could always say, well I thought I had the factory loads as I couldn't tell the difference. I'm not saying use reloads, but only questioning what's the options if they are used.

[SHOOTALL]

Saying you mixed up loads might be what a lawyer is looking for to show you go about protecting yourself in a manner less than a manner a reasonable person would IE : if your life depended on it you should know what you were using to protect it with ! by the way the case I noted earlier was in a national magazine so at least one case exist . It might not be a cookie cutter case but never the less the reloaded ammo was a problem !

[Almtnman]

What's the name of the national magazine that had that case in it, so I can look it up?

[SHOOTALL]

I don't have it with me , but will get it for you !

[SHOOTALL]

COMBAT HANDGUNS ,may-2007 pages 8-9 , 78-80 ,
State of New Jersey vs. Daniel Bias
State of New Hampshire vs. James Kennedy

[Mikey]

Shootall:  for those of us who do not subscribe to that magazine will you please provide us with some information on those two cases.  Please begin with the crime committed, the type of firearm and ammunition used and the results of the court actions against the defendants.  This is important for all of us.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[SHOOTALL]

As the magazine is at home and i at work all i can do now is relate what i can remember , the first case was a suicide , the wife had taken a gun loaded with very light hand loads and killed herself . The husband was charged with murder because of the lack of powder burns around the wound . the husband did get off but the expense was great !
The second i will re read , don't want to screw it up !
I find the whole idea of not being able to use reloads silly as you can buy just about any ammo you can think up !
Saw shot gun ammo that was 2 lead balls with a chain between them , some that belch fire and many more .

[Almtnman]

And I have a box of the old Black Talon ammo for my 45acp that the anti-gun crowd didn't like because of it's name and how it worked. So the ammo manufacturer had to change it's name to something else.

So if I used that factory ammo, what would be the results in court?

[SHOOTALL]

Well the fact you made it to court was indication it worked !

[Almtnman]

SHOOTALL, I didn't go to court, was only wondering what the outcome would be if I used the old Black Talon ammo that I have that is no longer made. When it came out on the market, the anti-gun crowd had a fit on account of the little claws that stuck out when it expanded and the name of it. The ammo company stopped making it for a while because of that, but I think they brought it back under a new name that wasn't as obvious.

[SHOOTALL]

then i guess if some lawyer ( DA or CA ) wanted to make a case of using the ammo and the jury was convinced your goose would be cooked !
then again it might not get mentioned until the wrongful death suit started , yea it will be your fault the guy got shot while trying to kill you and steal your car ! If you had not used that bad ammo the guy would have lived ! It wasn't his fault , his dad didn't make enough $$$$$$$$ to give him a car like you drive so he was forced to take yours !
Our court system is in a sad state of affairs when you get penalized for protecting yourself ! I often wonder if the cavemen were restricted to softer woods for clubs ?

[Almtnman]

I doubt that would be the case with me as the state I live in brought the Castle Doctrine into law last year, shortly after Florida made it a state law. That gives me the right to defend myself with deadly force if I feel threatened no matter where I'm at, home, in my vehicle or walking down the street. But it might not be good for people in states that don't have those laws.

[SHOOTALL]

The second case was a policeman who carried hand loads in his approved gun . A bad guy grabbed the gun and pulled it causing it to discharge in his face . The officer was made to look like a RAMBO type in court by the DA. the officer did win after expert wittiness came but he still had to go thru. it .
You may be correct about the new laws , but they have to be tested in court before we will really know for sure !