Author Topic: How Tyranny Came to America (Read 3920 times)

Fazak · « **on:** September 12, 2007, 10:06:04 AM »

I discovered the writings of Joseph Sobran several years ago and keep up with them on a regular basis. One of his essays which really made me ponder the current state of America and the history which brought it to this point follows.

I think some of you will consider it a worthy read.

http://www.sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml

jh45gun · « **Reply #1 on:** September 12, 2007, 11:02:15 AM »

Yes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence are wonderfull Documents and remind us of how we were founded and do give us Rights as Americans and a Constitution that makes us much different from the rest of the world. We are no longer though 13 colonies but 50 States and the world is a bit more complex than the world was back then. We also elected every President and every politician that has made change either for good or bad so what were are now is a total of our past and present and what will happen in the future.

Fazak · « **Reply #2 on:** September 12, 2007, 11:09:19 AM »

I think it's difficult to argue with this statement from Sobran's essay. What do you think about it jh?

If Washington and Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton could come back, the first thing they’d notice would be that the federal government now routinely assumes thousands of powers never assigned to it — powers never granted, never delegated, never enumerated. These were the words they used, and it’s a good idea for us to learn their language. They would say that we no longer live under the Constitution they wrote.

jh45gun · « **Reply #3 on:** September 12, 2007, 02:53:00 PM »

Of course not it's a whole new world out there which is what I was implying to my last post and yes there are more things added to the Government then before. the Basic frame work is still in place. As long as your on the subject I wonder what they would think of Hillary, Obama and the other anti gun goons running for President that would love to take away the Second Amendment?

Fazak · « **Reply #4 on:** September 12, 2007, 03:24:10 PM »

Quote from: jh45gun on September 12, 2007, 02:53:00 PM

what they would think of Hillary, Obama and the other anti gun goons running for President that would love to take away the Second Amendment?

The nature of government is to garner power.

The founding fathers knew this,... hence, the Constitution.

There's two things which flagrantly represent power.

Money,.. and weaponry.

The government already transfers power from the people to the government by taking the people's money.

They will also always be involved in the transfer of power by making the people weaker through the limitation of weaponry.

Bush demonstrated this when he said that he would sign the assault weapons ban if it was placed on his desk.

Democrats,... Republicans,... there's no significant difference.

They're both government,... and they both want to take your power and transfer it to themselves.

jh45gun · « **Reply #5 on:** September 12, 2007, 04:10:55 PM »

So do you think a Libertarian would be different? IF your saying all politicians are power hungry what makes the Libertarian any different as he seeks office so therefore he must be power hungry right?

;

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #6 on:** September 12, 2007, 06:48:58 PM »

What a GREAT question jh45gun!!! No reply huh?

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2007, 01:14:41 AM »

Position yourownself in the lotus position, close your eyes and say Huuuummmmm. Open your eyes and all will be OK.
Blessings

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #8 on:** September 13, 2007, 02:11:36 AM »

Were not most of the founding fathers pretty well pressed into public service as opposed to actually running for office?

If this is the new 1776, then maybe we need to force some unwilling souls to lead us.

Mr. Layton, I'll need your address and full name for my write in campaign.

I'm still looking for your vice-president.

jh45gun · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2007, 07:43:15 AM »

Sorry TM7 your not going to shake me by accusing me of being a liberal I know I am not but I have my doubts about you.

I do not see any mention of Libertarian in our founding fathers time so how could they be that? The party system started out Tories and Whigs and evolved to Federalist and anti-federalist which then evolved to the Democrat-Republicans. which later split to the Democrats and Republicans. Furthermore the Libertarian Party was formed in 1971 so how can you call the founding fathers Libertarians?

While our founding fathers believed in freedom and some of the other libertarian ideals that does not make them libertarians as most US citizens believe in freedom and some of the liberatarian ideals to, but that does not make us libertarianns either.

No matter how you shake it our two main parties have roots back to those days. The libertarian party does not and is a recent newcomer just like the other fringe political parties in existance today.

jh45gun · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2007, 03:16:29 PM »

I know all about the founding fathers I studied History in school as you did. I also respect our history and our heritage. What I do not respect is YOU trying to give Ron Paul Legitimacy by comparing him to our founding fathers or doing the same thing to a johhny come lately politcial party that is more of a spoiler than anything else. Our founding fathers at least fought when they needed to something it sounds like Ron Paul is sadly lacking.

Heavy C · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2007, 06:03:10 PM »

Quote from: ncsurveyor on September 13, 2007, 02:11:36 AM

Were not most of the founding fathers pretty well pressed into public service as opposed to actually running for office?

If this is the new 1776, then maybe we need to force some unwilling souls to lead us.

Mr. Layton, I'll need your address and full name for my write in campaign.

I'm still looking for your vice-president.

Look in the mirror. I think you'll do a fine job!

williamlayton · « **Reply #12 on:** September 14, 2007, 12:17:51 AM »

WELL---HUMMMM.
Nope, folks, you don't want me as a President. I don't have NEAR the qualifications to even be a gofer at that level.
Unfortunately, there really are very few that can carry the weight---most just want the power and prestige.
There are a couple of you that have the mind---I don't know about the disposition and spirit---I think that is the point---We have very few who are actually qualified in all areas who DO desire the position.
Blessings

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #13 on:** September 14, 2007, 01:35:00 AM »

Quote from: Heavy C on September 13, 2007, 06:03:10 PM

Quote from: ncsurveyor on September 13, 2007, 02:11:36 AM
Were not most of the founding fathers pretty well pressed into public service as opposed to actually running for office?

If this is the new 1776, then maybe we need to force some unwilling souls to lead us.

Mr. Layton, I'll need your address and full name for my write in campaign.

I'm still looking for your vice-president.

Look in the mirror. I think you'll do a fine job!

I have to thank my wife and our Father for my current outlook and demeanor. I'm afraid my past would never be tolerated under public scrutiny. Might even make Bill Clinton blush. My skeleton closet is a "walk-in", with extra shelves.

Heavy C · « **Reply #14 on:** September 14, 2007, 04:10:20 AM »

Quote from: ncsurveyor on September 14, 2007, 01:35:00 AM

Quote from: Heavy C on September 13, 2007, 06:03:10 PM
Quote from: ncsurveyor on September 13, 2007, 02:11:36 AM
Were not most of the founding fathers pretty well pressed into public service as opposed to actually running for office?

If this is the new 1776, then maybe we need to force some unwilling souls to lead us.

Mr. Layton, I'll need your address and full name for my write in campaign.

I'm still looking for your vice-president.

Look in the mirror. I think you'll do a fine job!

I have to thank my wife and our Father for my current outlook and demeanor. I'm afraid my past would never be tolerated under public scrutiny. Might even make Bill Clinton blush. My skeleton closet is a "walk-in", with extra shelves.

Now that's funny! A "walk-in" closet...

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #15 on:** September 14, 2007, 08:21:19 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on September 14, 2007, 08:08:55 AM

Quote from: jh45gun on September 13, 2007, 03:16:29 PM
I know all about the founding fathers I studied History in school as you did. I also respect our history and our heritage. What I do not respect is YOU trying to give Ron Paul Legitimacy by comparing him to our founding fathers or doing the same thing to a johhny come lately politcial party that is more of a spoiler than anything else. Our founding fathers at least fought when they needed to something it sounds like Ron Paul is sadly lacking.
.
Ron Paul fought.....he was a surgeon in Vietnam. Unlike most in Congress he has actually done something with his life besides play acting, suing people, and defending criminals. I believe he has delivered over 4000 babies within his medical practice..

....TM7

TM, I've seen the 4K babies quote before. I'm not so sure of its pertinence to politics, mainly because I've delivered 5 myself when I worked in fire/EMS. I realize its only 0.125% of Dr. Paul, but the only thing it did for me was cause me to start smoking again.......

jh45gun · « **Reply #16 on:** September 14, 2007, 10:13:36 AM »

Being a doctor does not give him the green light that just shows his career choice. I know a few doctors that are jerks. In fact we have several here that are accused of sexual assualt so being a doctor does not give you an automatic pass card.

powderman · « **Reply #17 on:** September 14, 2007, 10:57:27 AM »

Quote from: jh45gun on September 12, 2007, 04:10:55 PM

So do you think a Libertarian would be different? IF your saying all politicians are power hungry what makes the Libertarian any different as he seeks office so therefore he must be power hungry right? ;

YEP. POWDERMAN.

jh45gun · « **Reply #18 on:** September 14, 2007, 06:31:40 PM »

Geez I think you guys better get a hold of the Pope according to you guys this Paul is ready for sainthood.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #19 on:** September 17, 2007, 05:48:13 AM »

Medical personnel are non-combatants. He is a Viet Vet, but he DID NOT fight!! Unless you can show where he had his a$$ in the grass with an M16, don't call him a "fighter". Even with that, just because he did the "right thing" 40+ years ago doest mean he'll do the right thing now!! He is willing to accept defeat. There is no difference between him and the top Dems when it comes to defending the Country. They wont and he wont! He'll cut and run faster than Hill or Barry. He has said as much.

If he was such an "honest statesman", why does the Libertarian hold office as a member of a different party? Seems more like deception....

ironglow · « **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2007, 07:59:46 AM »

Tyranny came to America as liberalism...and that is just how it continues in spite of it's many disguises !

Libertarianism is no salvation for our country..seeing the things that many Libertarians endorse, had they been in power through the decades..there would likely be no United States .

They don't like the military and certainly don't want enough military to defend us from external enemies..good thing they weren't in control 1941-1945 !

They don't want any surveillance in the US, no matter how many terrorist cells may be operating here..yet if the 9/11 attack had been much more successful
we could have become a third world economic power overnight !

No nation can long exist without a generally accepted concept of morality..too many , including many Libertarians..have no moral compass..had they been
empowered years ago, we may have been facing some of the moral dilemmas that we now face..a century ago..

Are the Republicans or the Democrats doing a superb job ? ..Shucks no..But were the Libertarians to take over the reins of govt..i doubt they would do as well !

At least the other parties, unlike Ron Paul are willing to admit that we have external enemies that could destroy our sovereignty and at least one of those major parties is cognizant of the fact that nearly all the great nations died from internal rot..the sin sickness.

A lack of a "moral compass" within, such as many Libertarians espouse, can destroy a nation as surely as a most dangerous enemy from without !

Our freedoms in this nation were designed as such that a person would be FREE to be a decent, moral, law abiding citizen..

Those freedoms were not instituted in order to promote anarchy !

jh45gun · « **Reply #21 on:** September 19, 2007, 04:37:54 PM »

Another good well thought out post Ironglow.

magooch · « **Reply #22 on:** September 20, 2007, 04:00:01 PM »

Okay TM7, specifically which freedom, or liberty has been taken away from you by the dreaded neocon administration. And don't tell me you've been wire tapped, or lost your freedom of speech, or some other bag of crap from the Dumbycrat talking points.

As for the present administration doing anything that approaches what FDR did; just go have a talk with some of the Japanese-Americans that were interned during WW II.

You should be worrying about what is going to become of your liberties if Hitlary, or some other stupid liberal, lying piece of crap gets elected to the Presidency.

ironglow · « **Reply #23 on:** September 20, 2007, 05:18:48 PM »

Guys;

Do a Google search for < Ron Paul , bio > you will find by most bios, even those on his own websites..do not mention Vietnam. They say he served as a "flight surgeon"
in the Air Force. He was drafted in 1963 and served until 1965.

The Wikipedia article says he never served in Vietnam, but did serve elsewhere during those two years..... (Korea, Iran, Ethiopia & Turkey)

Just do a search for his bio online.

jh45gun · « **Reply #24 on:** September 20, 2007, 06:46:09 PM »

LOL Digging at the bottom of the barrel TM7 trying to protect your libertarians. Seems to me there is enough sex scandals in both parties to go around and why even bring it up it has no bearing on what IronGlow was saying. Misdirection and smoke and mirrors eh> LOL

Swampman · « **Reply #25 on:** September 21, 2007, 01:41:44 AM »

"They say he served as a "flight surgeon"

in the Air Force. He was drafted in 1963 and served until 1965."

I don't believe you can or could be drafted into the USAF.

We've always been volunteers.

Ron Paul will never be President. Fred gets my vote.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #26 on:** September 21, 2007, 02:37:47 AM »

Adventurous foreign wars operating on fear factor and gross misinformation now sold as patriotism.

And what is it that you are "selling"?

Dave.

Swampman · « **Reply #27 on:** September 21, 2007, 02:42:42 AM »

"And what is it that you are "selling"?"

I'd call it un-patriotism.

superhornet · « **Reply #28 on:** September 21, 2007, 04:43:09 AM »

I have often wondered, that if America and her government is, according to some, such a rotten, racist, homophobic, selfish, no good place to be.........why is it that no one is jumping the border and running to Africa, Mexico, Cuba, China, Russia,etc etc.......Why is it they all want to come here ?? If it is so bad for some, why are they not heading back to the countries they claim are so understanding and free ?? If there is a better place than America, please feel free to head on out.....IMHO

jh45gun · « **Reply #29 on:** September 21, 2007, 06:59:27 AM »

Quote from: superhornet on September 21, 2007, 04:43:09 AM

I have often wondered, that if America and her government is, according to some, such a rotten, racist, homophobic, selfish, no good place to be.........why is it that no one is jumping the border and running to Africa, Mexico, Cuba, China, Russia,etc etc.......Why is it they all want to come here ?? If it is so bad for some, why are they not heading back to the countries they claim are so understanding and free ?? If there is a better place than America, please feel free to head on out.....IMHO

Agreed!