.35 Whelen vs .338 Win Mag

[Dixie Dude]

I know this has probably been done before, but how do these two stack up for an Alaskan rifle?  Have an opportunity to buy a Whelen, but .338's are no more expensive than normal caliber rifles. 

[Dixie Dude]

One other thing, I am also considering reloading for either of them. 

[Lone Star]

For most Alaskan game either will work as well as the other, you shouldn't see a difference.  I used a .338-06 during the 27 years I lived in the Great Land with very good success.  Shot placement and bullet construction are the most critical aspects of good performance with all three cartridges.  You do get one or two more rounds in the magazine with the '06-based cartridges.   (I did use a heavy-loaded M98 .45-70 for the brownie....and I used a .338 WinMag in AK too.)





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[BigJakeJ1s]

Unless the location (and your preference/tolerance/capability) call for delivering death at fairly long hunting ranges (>300-350 yds?), I would prefer 35 Whelen. At "normal" ranges I'd prefer to shoot at, caliber counts more than powder, but I have no experience with either of these.

Andy

[corbanzo]

They are both good sounds rounds for Alaskan game.  This one comes down to preference.

[Coyote Hunter]

I'll take the .338 Win Mag for all the same reasons I'd take a .300 Win Mag as set fort in the thread in the Bolt Guns forum.

[Dand]

One thing to consider would be ammo availability.  In that regard, the 338 Win ammo is probably more readily found throughout the state including smaller towns and villages.  If you are based in larger communities you should be able to find 35W ammo fairly easily. 

[Redhawk1]

Having to pick one which I did, I went with a 338 Win Mag.  Sure both will work in the application you described, but I prefer the 338 WM to the 35 Whelen.

[Mckie Hollow]

One of the best reasons to pick a 35 Whelen over a 338 Mag. would be for Recoil, and to many, this would be a good one

[Coyote Hunter]

One of the best reasons to pick a 35 Whelen over a 338 Mag. would be for Recoil, and to many, this would be a good one

With handloads, which Dixie Dude plans to use although he does not load presently, the .338 Win Mag can be downloaded to .35 Whelen energy and recoil levels.  The Whelen cannot be loaded up to .338 Win Mag levels, however.

Not knocking the Whelen, but for versatility, charge stopping ability and selection of factory ammo (including premium bullets, which are unavialable in "Big Three" factory ammo for the Whelen), the .338 has the advantage.  IMHO.

[rickt300]

Loaded to top velocities using 225 or 250 grain pointed bullets velocities your not going to see any measurable differences on game or trajectory wise between the two rounds. The Whelen can be made lighter, shorter and thus handier, the bonus being less recoil.

[Coyote Hunter]

Loaded to top velocities using 225 or 250 grain pointed bullets velocities your not going to see any measurable differences on game or trajectory wise between the two rounds. The Whelen can be made lighter, shorter and thus handier, the bonus being less recoil.

Well, I don't know, the differences are certainly measurable as far as trajectory goes.  I just ran the numbers for Nosler 225g and 250g Partitions for both.

Here's the comparison, using the fastest loads in Nosler #5 in each case, with all loads zeroed for a maximum rise of 3" (MPBR for a 6" diameter target).  If I did it right:

At 250 grains, the .338 Win has an advantage of about an 8-1/2" and 581fpe at 400 yards.  At 500 yards its 16.2" and 522pe.

At 225 grains, the .338 Win has an advantage of about an 10.9" and 696fpe at 400 yards.  At 500 yards its 20.7" and 617fpe.

[rickt300]

I guess I should have said inside of 350 yards and in the field. Just how much faster does the 338 push the two bullet weights or is it a Ballistic coefficient advantage. The 338 I had couldn't be made to get more than 2650 fps with a 250 grain Sierra Gameking. It had a 22 inch barrel.

[Coyote Hunter]

I guess I should have said inside of 350 yards and in the field. Just how much faster does the 338 push the two bullet weights or is it a Ballistic coefficient advantage. The 338 I had couldn't be made to get more than 2650 fps with a 250 grain Sierra Gameking. It had a 22 inch barrel.

Nosler 5th gives the .338 Win a 274fps advantage when both use a 24" barrel.  Using Partitions, the .338 also has a BC advantage - .473 to .421.  And a SD advantage, .313 to .251.

[rickt300]

I need to get a copy of that manual. The 338 is pushing a 250 grain bullet to 2870 fps or so? I know thats a kicker. What does the 5th edition list as top velocity with the 225 and 250 grain bullets in the Whelen and what powder are they using.

[tanoose]

Choosing between the two it would be a .338 win. mag in stainless synthetic. But my own personal choice is the .375 H&H

[Coyote Hunter]

I need to get a copy of that manual. The 338 is pushing a 250 grain bullet to 2870 fps or so? I know thats a kicker. What does the 5th edition list as top velocity with the 225 and 250 grain bullets in the Whelen and what powder are they using.

Nosler 5th
.338WM, 225g Partition, 2882fps, BC .454
.338WM, 250g Partition, 2780fps, BC .473

.35 Whelen, 225g Partition, 2525fps, .430BC  (I missed this one in my earlier post and used 2502fps for calculations instead.)
.35 Whelen, 250g Partition, 2506fps, .446BC

[rickt300]

I feel that the loading manual people may load the Whelen to lower pressures than my rifle can use. Probably in deference to the many older rifles chambered to it and the possibility of a low number Springfield so chambered.  I noticed the 225 is only going a few fps faster than the 250 grain bullet and almost 200 fps slower than we know can be achieved in the Whelen. Even the 250 grain bullet often reaches 2600 fps using RL15.  With these considerations it appears that under normal situations the Whelen is at least comparable to the 338.  The one, last 338 I will ever own was a Stainless Synthetic Ruger with the hollowed out stock and I have to admit it was the nastiest kicking rifle I had ever owned. It shot well but with the 250 grain bullets and the 225 grain x bullet velocities were low enough that at 400 yards expansion of these bullets was not a sure thing. The 250 grain bullet was the Sierra Gameking and I was disappointed in both bullets performance out where I though the 338 was going to shine. At closer ranges where my 30-06 worked just fine the 338 worked very well also. So not really likeing the rifle and the cartridges poor showing at longer ranges I sold it.  Now I don't take shots over 350 yards so whatever advantage the 338 has with better bullets I don't need.

[Graybeard]

Nosler loads ammo and sells it direct to the consumer. Good stuff by the way.

For the Whelen they load the 225 to 2725 fps and in the .338 Win. Mag. they load the 225 to 2800 fps. With the 250 grain they load the .338 to 2605 fps and the Whelen to 2550 fps.

I think that more closely shows the REAL difference between the two rounds. In reality no difference other than the Whelen makes a bigger hole.

[Dixie Dude]

I was surprised to learn that the .35 Whelen also has a little over 2,000 ft. lbs of energy at 300 yards with only about an 8" drop zeroed at 200 yards with about 2" high at 100 yards.  Even a 30-06 has over 2,000 ft. lbs at 300 yards with about a 10" drop with the right ammo.  I am beginning to believe that the magnums are over-rated.  Yes, flatter shooting, but on big game a couple of inches in the rib cage doesn't matter.  I wish Hornady made a light magnum in the .35.  I think it would be impressive.  Also, for me realistically, a shot at 300 yards and I would have to brace my shot, I don't think I could do it off hand, just too far, unless I had a 12-14 power scope.  I also want a clean kill.  If I can't get a good shot, I am not going to take it.   

[Coyote Hunter]

I don’t have the time to go through all the factory loads, but here’s a comparison of reload data.

A couple of things struck me while compiling this data:

1.   Excluding pistol bullets, there is a wider range of bullet weights for the .338 than there is for the .35 (160g-275g versus 180g-250g).
2.   The .338 bullets have better BC and SD numbers than their .35 equivalents.  Often significantly better.
3.   The velocity differences are more than the Nosler factory loads would suggest.

Code: [Select]

Source          Weight   .300Win    .35Whelen
                  (g)      (fps)      (fps)
=============================================
Hornady 5th      180        --        2750
Hornady 5th      200       3000       2650
Hornady 5th      225       2800        --
Hornady 5th      250       2700       2500

Nosler 5th       180       3281       2715
Nosler 5th       200       3020        --
Nosler 5th       225       2882       2525
Nosler 5th       250       2780       2506

Barnes #3        160X      3359        --
Barnes #3        175X      3204        --
Barnes #3        180X       --        3095
Barnes #3        185X      3151        --
Barnes #3        200X      3059       2845
Barnes #3        210X      2944        --
Barnes #3        225X      2838       2713
Barnes #3        250X      2687       2586

Hodgdon 2006 AM  160X      3183        --
Hodgdon 2006 AM  175X      3051        --
Hodgdon 2006 AM  180       3157       2600
Hodgdon 2006 AM  185X      2971        --
Hodgdon 2006 AM  200       2969       2383
Hodgdon 2006 AM  210X      2888        --
Hodgdon 2006 AM  220        --        2636
Hodgdon 2006 AM  225       2811       2588
Hodgdon 2006 AM  250       2657       2503
Hodgdon 2006 AM  275       2564        --

Speer #13        180        --        2891
Speer #13        200       2932        --
Speer #13        220        --        2599
Speer #13        225       2981        --
Speer #13        250       2664       2386

Lyman 48th       180        --        2859
Lyman 48th       200       3058       2715
Lyman 48th       225       2915       2617
Lyman 48th       250       2762       2485

Accurate #1      180        --        2937
Accurate #1      200       2950       2798
Accurate #1      225       2800       2604
Accurate #1      250       2607       2523
Accurate #1      275       2459        --

Alliant RG       200       3020       2675
Alliant RG       210       2910        --
Alliant RG       225       2865        --
Alliant RG       250       2880       2550


[rickt300]

Why exclude pistol bullets, they make the Whelen more useful as a plinker and varmint gun? This obliterates  the lesser variety comment. There may be a wider variety of bullet weights but not types as the Whelen is privy to many good round nose designs meant for it and the 35 Remington allowing very good 200 yard low recoil deer loads to be put together. On the heavy end there are 35 caliber bullets available that are over 300 grains, not that I need them but Woodleigh sells them.  This often heralded SD and BC edge the 33 caliber has as it's edge is pretty small truthfully the velocity differences are not that great between the two rounds. What your chart show is that loading data varies greatly from one brand of loading manual to the next. 

[Coyote Hunter]

Here's a comparison of factory ammo.

Code: [Select]

Federal     .338WM       180    3120    AccuBond,            .225SD, .373BC, 3890fpe
Federal     .338WM       210    2830    Partition,           .263SD, .400BC, 3734fpe
Federal     .338WM       225    2800    AccuBond,            .281SD, .550BC, 3917fpe
Federal     .338WM       225    2800    TSX,                 .281SD, .386BC, 3917fpe
Federal     .338WM       225    2730    Trophy Bonded,       .281SD, .384BC, 3723fpe
Federal     .338WM       250    2660    Partition,           .313SD, .473BC, 3927fpe

Hornady     .338WM       225    2950    SP,                  .281SD, .397BC, 4347fpe

Winchester  .338WM       225    2800    AccuBond CT,         .281SD, .550BC, 3918fpe
Winchester  .338WM       230    2780    Fail Safe,           .288SD,  ???BC, 3948fpe
Winchester  .338WM       200    2950    Ballistic Silvertip, .250SD, .414BC, 3864fpe
Winchester  .338WM       200    2960    Power-Point,         .250SD,  ???BC, 3890fpe

Remington   .338WM       225    2785    A-Frame,             .281SD, .337BC, 3871fpe
Remington   .338WM       225    2780    PSP-CL,              .281SD, .435BC, 3860fpe
Remington   .338WM       225    2780    UltraBond,           .281SD, .456BC, 3860fpe
Remington   .338WM       250    2660    PSP-CL,              .313SD, .431BC, 3927fpe

Nosler      .338WM       180    3100    AccuBond,            .225SD, .373BC, 3840fpe
Nosler      .338WM       200    2950    AccuBond,            .250SD, .414BC, 3864fpe
Nosler      .338WM       210    2950    Partition,           .263SD, .400BC, 4057fpe
Nosler      .338WM       225    2800    AccuBond,            .281SD, .550BC, 3916fpe
Nosler      .338WM       225    2800    Partition,           .281SD, .454BC, 3916fpe
Nosler      .338WM       250    2605    Partition,           .313SD, .473BC, 3766fpe





Federal     .35Whelen    None
Hornady     .35Whelen    None
Winchester  .35Whelen    None
Remington   .35Whelen    200    2675    PSP,         .223SD, .294BC, 3177fpe
Remington   .35Whelen    250    2400    PSP,         .279SD, .409BC, 3197fpe
Nosler      .35Whelen    225    2725    AccuBond,    .251SD, .423BC, 3766fpe
Nosler      .35Whelen    225    2725    Partition,   .251SD, .430BC, 3766fpe
Nosler      .35Whelen    250    2550    Partition,   .279SD, .446SD, 3609fpe


[Casull]

Why exclude pistol bullets, they make the Whelen more useful as a plinker and varmint gun? This obliterates  the lesser variety comment. There may be a wider variety of bullet weights but not types as the Whelen is privy to many good round nose designs meant for it and the 35 Remington allowing very good 200 yard low recoil deer loads to be put together. On the heavy end there are 35 caliber bullets available that are over 300 grains, not that I need them but Woodleigh sells them.  This often heralded SD and BC edge the 33 caliber has as it's edge is pretty small truthfully the velocity differences are not that great between the two rounds. What your chart show is that loading data varies greatly from one brand of loading manual to the next. 

The "often heralded SD and BC edge" is actually quite significant if you're looking at shooting at distances beyond 200 yards.  Also, the loading data shows about a 200 to 300 fps advantage with same weight bullets across the board.  That is a significant difference in my book, especially with a bullet with better BC.

[Coyote Hunter]

Why exclude pistol bullets, they make the Whelen more useful as a plinker and varmint gun? This obliterates  the lesser variety comment. There may be a wider variety of bullet weights but not types as the Whelen is privy to many good round nose designs meant for it and the 35 Remington allowing very good 200 yard low recoil deer loads to be put together. On the heavy end there are 35 caliber bullets available that are over 300 grains, not that I need them but Woodleigh sells them.  This often heralded SD and BC edge the 33 caliber has as it's edge is pretty small truthfully the velocity differences are not that great between the two rounds. What your chart show is that loading data varies greatly from one brand of loading manual to the next. 

The first and really the only important reason pistol bullets were excluded was the that .35 pistol bullets are sized .357” instead of the correct .358”.  While you can shoot them they are not really designed for the .358” rifle bores.   

The .35 Whelen is, at best, a mediocre varmint gun.  It is not well suited for high volume stuff and for the occasional coyote any load will work. 

As to heavy bullets for the Whelen, there isn’t anything I’d take on with a .35Whelen and a .300g bullet that I wouldn’t take on with a .338 Win Mag and one load or another.  In fact, if a .338 Win Mag and a 200-225g bullet won’t do it, I’m probably going to prefer a .375 or larger than a .35 Whelen.

Also, when comparing one cartridge to another I’ve always found it more useful to compare bullets of similar Sectional Density rather than the same weight and the .338 Win Mag has a significant edge when doing so.

[rickt300]

The point is that the world is not only concerned about distances beyond 300 yards. As ti varminting the most important part of it is varmints like coons, Possums, coyotes and the occasional porky pine. No it isn't volume but more important than sitting there plinking at prairie dogs. In fact pistol bullets in the Whelen or 358 Win are easily bumped to .358 due to their soft cores and thin jackets.  There will be no bouncing bullets if say a 125 grain Remington JHP impacts doing 2000 fps. In actuality though the 338 may have more energy on tap it is still a less useful rifle than the Whelen.  It is not as flexible in loading, what benefits it may actually have happen to be useful only under a small percentage ot hunting situations. But shoot what you want. I worked myself thru the 30-06, 270,338, 300 Win mag 30-06, 7x57, 7MM RM,35 Whelen and 358 in about that order. I look on it as the 35 Whelen doesn't kick nearly as bad as the 338 or 300 Win mag and covers a lot of bases.

[Coyote Hunter]

The point is that the world is not only concerned about distances beyond 300 yards.

You are absolutely correct about that.  In 25 years of elk/deer/antelope hunting I've only taken one animal at range over 300 yards.  I have, however, turned down many shot opportunities at ranges greater than 300 yards and gone home empty-handed as a result.  The original question was how do these two cartridges stack up for Alaska.  That's a big place and I'm sure there are many shot opportunities in excess of 300 yards.

As ti varminting the most important part of it is varmints like coons, Possums, coyotes and the occasional porky pine. No it isn't volume but more important than sitting there plinking at prairie dogs. In fact pistol bullets in the Whelen or 358 Win are easily bumped to .358 due to their soft cores and thin jackets.  There will be no bouncing bullets if say a 125 grain Remington JHP impacts doing 2000 fps.

If you want reduced loads for possums (Does Alaska even have them?) and the like, a 180g .338" bullet will work just fine.  Such loads may cost more than pistol bullets but since high volume isn't an issue I wouldn't sweat it.  In fact, when I use my elk rifles for varmints I use my standard elk loads - good practice.

No one I know carries both regular hunting loads and plinker loads while hunting big game, and for good reason - the plinker loads usually shoot to a different point of aim, never mind the extra weight.  Yes, you can develop plinker/varmint loads for big game rifles (and I have done so) but in each case I have tried it I have to rezero the rifle to use them.

In actuality though the 338 may have more energy on tap it is still a less useful rifle than the Whelen.  It is not as flexible in loading, what benefits it may actually have happen to be useful only under a small percentage ot hunting situations.

The .338 Win Mag can be downloaded as far as the Whelen, so I see no advantage to either cartridge in that respect.  On the upper end, however, the .338 Win Mag can provide greater velocity and energy at all ranges, with a somewhat flatter trajectory.


I was comparing hottest factory loads I could find last night.   The Federal 250g .338 Win Mag load @ 2660fps compared to the Nosler 250g .35 Whelen load.  AT 300 yards the .35 Whelen load retains 1609fpe while the there is a 500fpe advantage to the .338, with a flatter trajectory (10" flatter at 500 yards using the flattest factory loads for each). Granted, 500 yard shots are not a typical shot, but they do occur and the advantage goes to th e .338 when they do.

One might be tempted to suggest that the .35 will penetrate deeper due to heavier bullets, but that is not necessarily the case.  First, bullets over 250g would have to be used in factory load for this to be true and over 270g with handloads.  Second, much depends on bullet construction.  I'd probably place my bets on the Federal 225g TSX for the .338 Win Mag in this regard.

But shoot what you want. I worked myself thru the 30-06, 270,338, 300 Win mag 30-06, 7x57, 7MM RM,35 Whelen and 358 in about that order. I look on it as the 35 Whelen doesn't kick nearly as bad as the 338 or 300 Win mag and covers a lot of bases.

Launching a bullet of a particular weight at similar velocities the .338 will kick no more than the .35 Whelen.  The extra kick comes in as velocity of the .338 Win is increased.

Its true the .35 Whelen is a good and very useful cartridge. It makes a big hole and that counts for a lot.  But it is not the equivalent of the .338 Win Mag in terms of downrange energy or trajectory.  Where I hunt (Colorado) I have not found a use for anything over .30 in a bolt gun and in fact have never taken game that I couldn't have taken with a .308 Win.  A .35 Whelen would have worked also.  But I have passed on many shots where I would have preferred a .300 Win Mag to a .308 Win -- or a .338 Win Mag to a .35 Whelen. 

Back to Alaska, for barren ground caribou I'd probably prefer a .338" 180g bullet running 3100fps and I think I'd prefer a .338 225g TSX or Trophy Bonded to a .35 250g AccuBond or Partition for the larger brown bears.  Better yet I'd like my .45-70 or a .375 Ruger for the big bears.

[fatercat]

i have had first hand info about the 35 whelen. i load 225 gn. triple schocks with 62.5 grains of reloader 15 for a conographed 2815 fps. rem. brass, rem. lg rifle primers. rem.700 cdl 24" barrel. at 100 yds. or maybe a little less they will go through a 7X6 elk that scored 340. nosler offers its factory load of 225 gn partitons at 2700+ fps. it kicks less than a 338 or a 300 mag. these are facts and not out of some book.

[rickt300]

I have never come home empty handed from a hunt even when i bagged no game animal. Once again retained energy at 400 yards has little to do with my hunting. And yes the 338 will kick more when Pushing bullets of similar velocity and weight because it will take more powder to do it.  No one I know plinks while hunting big game either and I disagree a 180 grain .338 bullet can do what a 125 grain JHP will safely as a varmint cartridge. As to "stacking up" in Alaska My experience there was that shooting is almost always at less than 150 yards because even seeing that far was in a really open spot (coastal Alaska, Sitka and Ketchican). You keep quoting energy figures when in reality bullet impact velocity is what expands bullets. I like to have 2000fps at impact, The 338 does not provide this a lot farther than the 35 Whelen. As for a Barren ground Caribou rifle the 7MM Remington magnum is a better rifle for this than either the 35W or 338. Sure the 338 with a TSX will penetrate deeply so wil the same style bullets in the 35W. I tend to believe that I need no deeper penetration than the 250 grain Speer Hotcor provides and especially not more than the 250 grain Partition. If I were picking one rifle for Alaska which is a pretty broad brush to paint with it would be a 300 Winchester magnum. For a two rifle battery they would be a 7MM Remington magnum and a 35 Whelen.

[fatercat]

Rick, my two rifles are the 35 whelen and the 257 weatherby magnum. the 257 is lighter to the shoulder and lighter on the shoulder. i've killed my biggest with a 7 mag. scored 379, age shortens our steps and lenthens our shots. 257 on elk is in next story. regards, richard