extraction problem

[tony212]

OK, damn, nothing is ever easy, Went to the range today.  I Have been working up a load for the .223 using IMR4198.  Up until today no problems.  I had 10 each using 21.5 grains of powder, and 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. The only difference was the primers.  I used Remington 7 1/2 BR in 10, and Federal small rifle BR in the other 10.  I noticed the Federal's were hard to extract.  When I got home I tried some sized brass and some loaded rounds as well and they all extracted out alright.  But all of the fired cases would either get stuck or extract hard.  I also noticed it was hard to get the action closed and latched on the fired brass.  I guess i"m not sure if I should be looking at my loads, maybe cutting back on the powder, or looking at the gun for an extractor problem.  Any help would be appreciated.
thanks;
Tony 212

[quickdtoo]

Loads that are too hot will cause extraction/ejection problems, so will dirty/oily brass or chambers. Nosler lists that load of IMR4198 as a max load. Sounds to me like the max load is causing frame flex, that's why the fired cases won't let the action close all the way. Hodgdon shows IMR4198 max loads as the highest pressure loads they list for the 55gr Speer, 20.4gr as 53.6kpsi, I'd back off or choose a slower powder like Varget that offers better velocity at considerable less pressure. The IMR4198 max load they list at 3122fps, their max Varget load is 3384fps, but pressure is only 48.7kcup, that shows the difference between a Handi friendly load and one that's not.

Tim

[cwlongshot]

I dont think I completely understand...

Your putting fired, empty cases back in to your gun. Then you are attempting to close the action, and your wondering why its hard to close? I dont mean to be a smart arse..but why?

If your attempting to assertain the pressure developed by your hand loads, this is not the way to do so.

 21.5 is about .5 under a top load listed in SPEERS #11 manual. It could very well be too hot for your gun. Was thas a starting load for you? If so this is not a good prectice. A safe prectice is to reduce all loads by at least 10%.

 Personally I have better luck with H322 or H335 powder. Its a ball powder, meters very well and gets me very good accuracy!

 CW

[tony212]

My Nosler manual lists 21.5  as the max load.  I worked up to that in .5 grain increments. I put the fired cases back in to see if they still stuck after i cleaned the chamber and they did. I think I'll back down a 1/2 grain and try again.
Tony212

[quickdtoo]

If frame flex is the problem, you'll be able to see it after the shot, before you break the barrel open, look at the barrel frame joint at the standing breech, looking across the breech with it back lighted to see if there's a gap at the top of the barrel. I've seen it a few times, but the most obvious was with the infamous 300WSM barrel. The barrel release is usually real hard to press also, others have had that problem with light mag ammo too.

Tim

[tony212]

Thanks Quick, I'll check that next time I'm at the range.  What I first noticed when I was shooting was when I would break the barrel open it would open fine until a certain point then I would have to push down a little harder on the barrel to make it open all the way and extract the shell.  It didn't do it with the Remington primers, only with the Federal primers.  I stopped shooting after six rounds of each. I have 4 of each left. I'll shoot them off, look for signs of frame flex and then reduce the load a grain and retry.  I also started to work up a load with IMR 3031, no problems so far with that load, maybe I'll continue with that instead.
Tony 212

[quickdtoo]

That's how stuck cases feel when breaking open an extractor barrel, the first part that opens easy is just taking up the slack until the extractor claw stops against the rim, the hard part is actually pushing the stuck brass out of the chamber.

Tim

[tony212]

Just got back from the range, I guess we were right, it was too much pressure.  I loaded up a bunch today cutting back a grain to 20.5.  No problems at all. Everything went very smoothly.  Even though I wasn't too concerned with accuracy today they seemed to shoot pretty well.   Maybe next weekend I'll load up a few more and shoot them through my chronograph to see what I'm getting for velocity.  I decided to pull the bullets on the other eight just so I don't have any accidents. Thanks for the advice.
Tony212

[quickdtoo]

.

[Fred M]

I find it completly monotonous to listen to people loading Handi's to max
loads  and pressures with fast burning powders.  Does not anybody read anymore.

[Mac11700]

OK, damn, nothing is ever easy, Went to the range today.  I Have been working up a load for the .223 using IMR4198.  Up until today no problems.  I had 10 each using 21.5 grains of powder, and 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. The only difference was the primers.  I used Remington 7 1/2 BR in 10, and Federal small rifle BR in the other 10.  I noticed the Federal's were hard to extract.  When I got home I tried some sized brass and some loaded rounds as well and they all extracted out alright.  But all of the fired cases would either get stuck or extract hard.  I also noticed it was hard to get the action closed and latched on the fired brass.  I guess i"m not sure if I should be looking at my loads, maybe cutting back on the powder, or looking at the gun for an extractor problem.  Any help would be appreciated.
thanks;
Tony 212

As Fred has said...READ...If you are going to use IMR powder...then a very safe bet would be to use IMR Data...to which...for a 55 grain bullet is putting you over the maximum charge...20.4 grains is the book value max charge from IMR...and your maximum charge of 21.5 grains from Nosler is being shot out of a match grade Lilja barrel...not a Handi...You have to use a common sense approach when ever you are reloading...Just because you have a max load in 1 book...doesn't mean it will work for you..especially when changing components like the primers...All primers aren't the same...and all bullet bearing surfaces aren't the same...Start low...and work up in smaller increments till you see if what you using is safe...At least use the same components as what is given in the manual...and especially when working up max loads...as you found out...changing primers cause you to to go over max...FWIW...I echo what others are saying...Look to the slower powders...they will almost always give a higher loading density...and usually higher velocities at less pressures...and most likely better accuracy...

PS...Pick up a Hodgdons Annual manual...it's got a lot of data in it...and being able to cross reference your loading data will save you in the long run...besides...it's only about $8.00 on newsstands...

Mac

[Fred M]

Mac.
I envey you and Tim for the generosity of your words. People are simply too phlegmatic and too cheap to buy a good loading book and then badger others with questions that they should have known, since ignorance in hand loading
is dangerous.

Of course it helps to posses some logic and understanding.

[georgeld]

Tony:

I was concerned with what you had planned about shooting the other 8 loads when you already
had problems and been told multiple times they were too hot.

Amazingly you pulled them instead of shooting them.  What caused the change of mind??

Fred:  F/I's huh?

Tony:

Don't know how this would work in a handi as I've never loaded for one yet. But, I load for my Sako bolt gun:   anything 55gr and under. Same load except bullet.  These are a full case, or so close it can be considered full.  some books show this as max, others go up to 26.5gr. These are test loads in bolt type factory test rifle's. So start lower and work up and stay a couple gr less than max for these weaker actions to avoid stretching/springing the frame's these break actions are NOT built for max loads of any kind.

George

[just bill]

Just got back from the range, I guess we were right, it was too much pressure.  Tony212

Tony,

I went through the same thing this week with my 22 Hornet.

Exact same brass,primer,powder & amount but different bullets.
1) was 40 v max / 12.8 gr Lil Gun / Winchester brass & CCI SRP.
2) Hornady 45 grain Hornet bullet & same

I had ejection problems with the 45 and none with the 40.  This is the second time now so it's becoming apparent.

Hodgon list up to 50 gr with 13 gr. Lil Gun and also shows charts with the Hornady 45 Hornet not exceeding pressure.  Hornady says "no can do" with that load,  "not what we found in our testing".  I was concerned and actually spoke to techs from both company's about this.  Both were sure of their findings    From my real world experience it appears Hornady was right.  Pressure related signs were beginning ( lower case expansion)

I now would be very cautious about putting a 50 grain bullet over 13.0 Lil Gun in a Hornet like Hodgon has recently added to their web.