White Muzzleloading Systems

[zara_puppy]

Can anyone tell me about White Muzzleloading Systems muzzloaders?  I picked one up today at an auction (it looked like a nice firearm) but I can't seem to find any information about them.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Keith Lewis]

The White rifles were started by Doc (Gary) White in Utah. The company has been owned by several organizations but is presently out of business and will likely stay that way. The rifles are very well made and actively pursued by many. Depending on what model you got they usually sell for around $300-$500. Used usually can be found in the lower price area. If it is one of the later models like a Super 91 or an Ultramag you have a very desirable rifle. If the barrel is over 22 inches long it is likely one of those. The Model 97 usually has a 22 inch barrel and is somewhat less desirable although I bought two of them and they are great rifles. Usually the rifles are .504 which take a somewhat larger bullet than most muzzleloading .50 cal rifles. Bullets can be ordered from No-Excuses or other sources. They will also shoot sabots quite well although they are known for their ability to shoot heavy solid lead conical bullets better than most other rifles. They were one of the first "long range muzzleloaders".  For information and owners manuals go to Doc Whites site at  www.whitemuzzleloading.com. The actual White site is no longer active. Doc's site has a ton of information available. Let me know what you have and if it is an Ultramag I will buy it for what you paid plus $20. There are also .451 caliber White rifles but less common although also actively pursued. If you want to go into detail you can contact me at klewisinc@msn.com.

[Busta]

Can anyone tell me about White Muzzleloading Systems muzzloaders?  I picked one up today at an auction (it looked like a nice firearm) but I can't seem to find any information about them.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Congratulations on picking up a fine White muzzleloader. Which model and Caliber do you have? I would guess a G-Series Whitetail, G-Series Bison, W-Series Super-91, SG-Series White Lightning since you said it was a White Muzzleloading Systems rifle.

The history of White can pretty much be researched on Doc's site. It has been a roller coaster ride from the begining, but the rifles are as sound as they come. The calibers range from .410, .451, .504, .540, and 12 ga.

The early Whites were Armstech's.Then in the early 90's it was White Muzzleloading Systems, the W-Series Super-91's, G-Series Whitetail were the more popular models. In the mid-90's it was White Shooting Systems. About 1997 it was Muzzleloading Technologies Incorporated (MTI), M-97 Whitetails, M-97 Blacktails (teflon coated), and M-98 Elite Hunters were the main models. Around 2000 Spitfire bought them and just labeled them White Rifles, then later White Rifles, LLC.

Some of the models over the years.

W-Series Super-91
W-Series Super Safari (Full Stock)
G-Series Whitetail (also 500 Roger Raglin Signature models w/White (by Lyman) peep sights)
G-Series Blacktail (teflon coated)
G-Series Bison (heavy barrel, blued)
G-Series Odyssey (Christiansen carbon fiber wrapped barrel)
SG-Series White Lightning (.504 only)
BG-Series White Thunder (12 ga Shotgun)
BG-Series Tominator (12ga Shotgun) (Ray Eye Signature)
Javalina (pistol)
M-97 Whitetail (also offered in a Roger Raglin signature model)
M-97 Blacktail
B97 Thunder
B97 Tominator
M-98 Elite Hunter
M-98 Super Safari (Full Stock)
Thunderbolt
M-97 Ultra-Mag (Sportsmans Warehouse exclusive)
Super-91 II (Doc's Special Edition Signature Model)

I know I am forgetting at least one other odd-ball model of inline, but can't remember it right now. There were also some sidelock Sporting Rifles over the years too. Doc built a few rifles in .367 caliber for the White Shooting Team, and won the Nationals in 2006. I think it was his last ditch effort to secure a buyer, but so far there have been no takers.

I have owned a White since about 94-95, but not until I drooled over them for a few years, and picked up a couple more along the way.

That might be a bit more than you asked for, but it was a fun ride while it lasted.

Smoke 'em if ya got 'em!

Oh, and you have to tell us what you paid, so we can be jealous.

I forgot the Alpha, the one they never built.
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/alpha.htm

[zara_puppy]

It's a Model 97 Whitetail Hunter.  It is new in the box with tags still attached.  It is a matte stainless with composite stock.  This is the closest pic I can find.  I think the pic is a 50 cal, but the one I got is a 45 (451).  It came in a Koplin Hard case.  I got it for $90.  So I'm guessing I did OK, correct?

[Busta]

zara_puppy,

That was a horrible deal! For them! Answer any/all of the following you can, and I will be able to tell you exactly what you have, including who made the barrel. Does yours have the gray flecked stock or black? How long is the barrel, 22" or 26"? 1 or 2 ramrod thimbles, metal or plastic? Aluminum or Delrin ramrod? 1 or 2 bolts holding the action/barrel in the stock. Funnel crown or stepped crown? 6 lands and grooves or 7 lands and grooves? Marble sights (fiber optic) or Williams sights? #11, musket cap, or 209 ignition? If you have a M-97 Whitetail Hunter, I don't think it was made by White Muzzleloading Systems, probably MTI , White Rifles, Splitfire, White Rifles, LLC. White Muzzleloading Systems had a "W" inside an oval and made a G-Series Whitetail, the later ones (White Shooting Systems, White Rifles) had a "W" with crosshairs going through it. What does it actually say on the barrel?

No matter what you did good, and if you care to double your money, give me a PM or e-mail. If not give me a PM or e-mail, and I will tell you where to go to make about 150 DWB's (Dirty White Boys) sick and learn more about your rifle at he same time.

Another thing you might want to know, the .451's have a 1-20 twist and like long heavy bullets (460 grain + full bore conicals) the best. Just don't expect it to shoot those little bitty pistol bullets out of a sabot as good. If you want a sabot shooter, take me up on my offer and you can go buy one.

The sad reality is, there is no Company left to honor the warranty, or to supply parts if needed.

[huntersmurf]

Man, what a deal. If you don't like that comp stock I have a Laminate stock I'd trade ya for.

[Keith Lewis]

You can see where this is going. I have a .504 Whitetail Hunter Stainless with a laminated stock and a scope that I will trade and give you another $20. I have two Whitetail hunters but both in .504 so I would like the .451. email at klewisinc@msn.com. Needless to say you got more than a good deal.

[zara_puppy]

zara_puppy,

That was a horrible deal! For them! Answer any/all of the following you can, and I will be able to tell you exactly what you have, including who made the barrel. Does yours have the gray flecked stock or black? How long is the barrel, 22" or 26"? 1 or 2 ramrod thimbles, metal or plastic? Aluminum or Delrin ramrod? 1 or 2 bolts holding the action/barrel in the stock. Funnel crown or stepped crown? 6 lands and grooves or 7 lands and grooves? Marble sights (fiber optic) or Williams sights? #11, musket cap, or 209 ignition? If you have a M-97 Whitetail Hunter, I don't think it was made by White Muzzleloading Systems, probably MTI , White Rifles, Splitfire, White Rifles, LLC. White Muzzleloading Systems had a "W" inside an oval and made a G-Series Whitetail, the later ones (White Shooting Systems, White Rifles) had a "W" with crosshairs going through it. What does it actually say on the barrel?

No matter what you did good, and if you care to double your money, give me a PM or e-mail. If not give me a PM or e-mail, and I will tell you where to go to make about 150 DWB's (Dirty White Boys) sick and learn more about your rifle at he same time.

Another thing you might want to know, the .451's have a 1-20 twist and like long heavy bullets (460 grain + full bore conicals) the best. Just don't expect it to shoot those little bitty pistol bullets out of a sabot as good. If you want a sabot shooter, take me up on my offer and you can go buy one.

The sad reality is, there is no Company left to honor the warranty, or to supply parts if needed.

OK- here goes...
The stock - it is flecked.  More like tiny little scragly lines as opposed to a metal flake.
The Barrel - it is 22"
The ramrod thimble - there is one and it appears to be the same material as the stock
The ramrod - aluminum
Bolts - one hex that seems to lock the barrel to the stock.  There are two on the trigger guard.
The crown - it does not appear to be recessed (like my Ruger Comp Mark II) - looks like a standard rounded crown.
Lands and grooves - 6
Sights - Tru Glo fiber optic
Ignition - #11 caps
The Barrel says "White Rifles  Model 97 Whitetail Hunter".

And I will consider your offer.  I wasn't really looking for anything special - more along the lines of a T/C Omega or such.  They just went too high at the auction.  Go figure!

[Wolfhound]

And I will consider your offer.  I wasn't really looking for anything special - more along the lines of a T/C Omega or such.  They just went too high at the auction.  Go figure!

That's because outside of a few diehards no one wants a White. Since yours is a .451 you'd be better off selling it NIB. There's enough guys that want a White .451, and the synthetic stock is a big plus, that I can see you tripling or quadrupling what you have in it. Then you can put that to something that you want.

[Batchief909]

Diehards??  You betcha!! Those who don't want a White have never owned or shot one. Those who go by "hearsay" are fools. Those who HAVE will never part with them. The company might suck since it left Doc's hands,,,,,but until you shoot one, you'll never truly experience a more accurate or forgiving muzzleloader shooting true conical bullets.  I've shot the 300gr. Barnes Expanders with equal results. The now defunct company never produced a single firearm,,so everything out there came from Doc.  I own 5 of them now,,,and wouldn't sell any of them. My last range session with a new .504 bullet design wasn't too bad. For those of us "die-hards",,,,we like to play and experiment. 

This is a trial run from the new bullet design. It's a 441gr. pure lead conical cast from a custom Lee mould, using 70gr. of Swiss 3F at 50 yards with one of my Super 91s. At 100 yards,,I had 3 touching. Yeah,,,,,White rifles are junk....I wouldn't want another one either...

Zara puppy,,,,,you got the "deal of the year".....

[Wolfhound]

I don't believe I said they were junk in my post.

Though I do know people who owned them and have gotten rid of them.

[Batchief909]

I never quoted you as saying they were, Patrick.  OR,,,,did you just assume I was addressing you??  In that case,,us "diehards" are oblivious to your never-ending opinion,,which seems to erupt every time "White Rifles" are mentioned.    You've never held one,,,nevertheless shot one. So your opinion is mute. It's all based on "hearsay". Let it go,,,,you have no idea what you're talking about. Get over it.....you have your "discounted" Extreme.....

I've since owned 2 Knights and 3 Omegas,,,,and have gotten rid of them all. The accuracy comparisons don't even exist.

I know who you are referring to,,and he still owns a great shooting .504. I've sent him some of my 496gr. bullets, and gave him more on our hog hunt this year. He's very happy with the performance, although he got shafted by the "said" company. I wouldn't deal with them either. I go thru Doc... I also know 2 others on the same hunt that LOVE their White .410s...and wouldn't sell them.

I tried....

[Wolfhound]

I've since owned 2 Knights and 3 Omegas,,,,and have gotten rid of them. The accuracy comparisons don't even exist.

Nope. I agree 100%. Look at this pathetic group out of my Omega. Poor groups like this is why I haven't hunted with it in almost 3 years. Must be why no one wants to buy this gun either. Oddly enough my Knight will shoot similar groups with the right load. Poor pathetic guns. Ain't worth a hill of beans.



We all know that only White's kill deer. Why they make all these other brands is beyond me. Why we should throw em in a creek and go buy a White. Wait a second, isn't White out of buisiness? Yeah I think they are. They tried to stiff a guy I used to know. I know he no longer shoots a White. There was a fellow who wrote into a magazine telling about his experience with White rifles and how his lifetime warranty was useful as toilet paper. He no longer shoots one either. Why another fellow I know who owned several whites criticized them and y'all called him a hypocrit on your Dirty White boy's board.

[Batchief909]

You just confirmed my last post.   

[Wolfhound]

You just confirmed my last post. 

The one you keep editing? I originally posted on this topic to keep you guys from cheating the original poster. We both know how bad you DWB's want .451 Whites.

[Batchief909]

I congratulated the original poster!! I don't want his rifle. He got a heck of a deal!! I also don't want a .451..... I've got one! Mine are all .504 Super 91s,,,,except the .504 Ultra-Mag. Do you really hate guys that own White rifles that much?? If so,,,you need to UP yer meds,,,dude. 

If you weren't a member of the DWB board,,, (which you were) ,how would you know?  This sale was posted at DWBs,  and the guys saluted the buyer. I didn't see anyone trying to steal the gun from him.  Let it GO!!

This thread is about a guy who got one heck of a deal on a White rifle. Keep it!!!!!!

I originally posted on this topic to keep you guys from cheating the original poster. We both know how bad you DWB's want .451 Whites.

I didn't realize this was a "concern" of yours,,,,,,,or you were the "Guardian Angel" of White Rifle sales......but we DWBs appreciate your concern.  Next time Randy wants to give a gun away,,,I'll call him. 

[Wolfhound]

I didn't see anyone trying to steal the gun from him.  Let it GO!!

I didn't say steal I said cheat. Someone offered him horrid deals up above. Twice what he paid for it? When you and I both know it's worth 3 or 4 times what he paid? A rifle swap and $20 to boot? Those are horrid deals and I consider them trying to cheat the guy.

[Batchief909]

I've been in contact with the original poster via PM. I've also advised him to NOT sell the rifle. He got a great deal!!

What skin is it off your ass,,Patrick??  You say the White Rifles aren't worth investing in. Then you wanna show concern about someone getting screwed on a deal you should have no concern with?!! You're embarrassing yourself, dude. 

[Wolfhound]

He wanted an Omega or something similar. If he sticks with it and it breaks or he needs parts then he's outa luck. Oh well. It's too bad.

[Batchief909]

Yeah,,,,,too bad..... His outlook on life probably isn't as negetive as yours.....

If it HAPPENS to break,,,,which isn't likely,,,,he can get ahold of me. 

[zara_puppy]

Whoa fellas!  Let me step back in here.  I greatly appreciate all the help and advice I've received.  I've really learned a bunch.  I can get conicals from No Excuses and some other sources, I can use Pyrodex or 777 successfully, I understand the principle of a slip fit barrel and I'm beginning to understand the value (not just the monetary value, but values such as workmanship, accuracy, ease and forgiveness) of the White.  I also understand the company is no longer in business - so breakage may be a factor - although it's not really a consideration - really, I've got very little in the rifle - if it breaks, well, I'll cross that bridge when/if I get to it.  I also understand that in a pinch I should get reasonable accuracy with a sabot even with the high twist rate in the barrel.

I now own this rifle based on factors I was looking for - short barrel, stainless barrel, composite stock, caliber smaller than 50, and believe it or not for the reason that it's "bolt handle" is on the left side - and the fact that it was right in front of me for a good price didn't hurt.  As I write this I am still undecided what to do but at least I know it is a shootable piece with available fodder.  While I consider what is next I will take the time to thoroughly research the muzzle loader "world".  So by all means, please continue with advice and options.  Again, thanks to all!

[cascadedad]

Good going zara_puppy!!!!!  You got a steal on a nice squirrel rifle there.   

From another DWB, it would be a mistake if you sell it.  Learn about it and shoot it, it'll become your favorite and you'll know that the Chief speaks the truth.

[Sturgeon]

I've had three Whites,  now own two(S91 504 and 451), all are/were shooters.  You got a heck of a deal and a heck of rifle....nice job

[zara_puppy]

I got it out (yes, it's still in the case and in the box!) a little bit ago to see how well the fiber optics picked up the light.  Man, this dude 'holds' good.  Not muzzle heavy like most muzzle loaders.  The sights looked like they had lights hitting them.  I don't know how much longer I can resist shooting it!  I happen to have #11's on hand - from a borrowed muzzleloader last year and of course the rifle came with bullets - 20 of them.  I know where to get a pound of Pyrodex P (from what I understand the preferred powder).  I also have a scale that's accurate to within 1/10 of a grain - I hand load for my Redhawk.  So I have everything I need.  Although it's pretty short it feels like it would be good out to 100 yards (maybe just under) without a scope.  I'm trying to fight the urge......

[Wolfhound]

I'm sorry for the disruption. It got a little out of hand. I've had a couple bad days.

I've really got to quit hanging out on these message boards.

Good luck with your new rifle.

[Sturgeon]

Zara,
Now you did it  Be prepared for the powder flames  

Edited: pay attention to the advise Chief gives

[SURVEYOR]

zara_puppy!!!!!

Welcome to the world of DWB's! As you can see WH hates us! He hates Whites and everything about them!

So WHAT!

Hay! You got a great deal on a GREAT RIFLE! I own G-Series Whitetail Hunter in .504! I also have a Super 91 in .504! Both are great rifles. White never made a lot of rifles. They never were main stream. Nay Sayer's always want to point that out. Then there's the "where are you going to get parts?" GEZZ! What's to break? I've never had a deer walk from a 460 grain NoExcuses! I've never own a muzzleloader that you could shot and load well over 30 time with out swabing or cleaning! Accuracy is world class! Killing power is WORLD class!

Welcome aboard zara_puppy!!!!!

WH! We'd thought you'd have learned by now!

Surveyor! aka DWB!

[Batchief909]

Wolfhound,,,,sorry for the harsh words. Life's too short for the petty crap. 

[zara_puppy]

It's all good, guys.  No harm has been done here and a bunch of information has been obtained - and I thank you all!!  So - here are a couple of questions for those that know - First - what are the two small set screws on the right side of the barrel opposite the 'chamber'.  Second - the very back end of the barrel - it's knurled so you can take it apart for cleaning and inspection.  That only gets "finger tightened" - correct?

Thanks again (and many thanks to come, I'm sure).

[Swampman]

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/products.htm

You got a good deal.  They are good guns.  Don't break it, you probably can't get parts.

If it breaks, buy yourself a Knight Wolverine.