Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?

[Swampman]

I can only assume that Townsend Wheelan knew what he was writing about!

That's why I quoted him.

[burntmuch]

I like my 35 whelen. Just got it last year. I LL be hunting with it for the first time in 2 days. My first reloads gave me 1.5 inch groups. : good enough for me this year.

[Brithunter]

I can only assume that Townsend Wheelan knew what he was writing about!

That's why I quoted him.

Que?

      As I wrote it down straight out of his book this makes no sense  do you actaully have a copy of that original article? or are you repeating what you have heard elsewhere?

 Ken Waters quoted a passage in his pet loads on the 35 Wheelan which does not tie in with what Wheelan wrote in his book and until I actualy see a copy or unaltered re-print of the 1923 article I will go with what the man says himself in his book 

[Swampman]

I will go with what Col. Whelen said verbatim in the 1923 issue of 'The American Rifleman'

Since I don't have that book, I have no way of knowing if what you are saying is true.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm so you have not got the article and as you live in cloud cuckoo land and have trouble telling fact from fiction you believe others are incapable of also doing this as so tell lies is that it?

Now why would I quote even the page number where it's so easy to check? Hmmm? I suggest you get a copy and read it. The Libary should be able to get you a copy 

Oh I also included the errors like the . in front of the bullets weights so they looked like sizes instead of weights. Didn't want to be thought of as getting it wrong 

[rickt300]

Aah Brithunter, dueling wits with the witless will accomplish nothing other than wasting cyberspace. On the other hand who ever decided to neck up the basic 30-06 case up to 35 caliber had a good idea.  If I were foolish enough to go with a 2 rifle battery a 7MM Remington magnum and a 35 Whelen would make a very good pair but then I'd be without my beloved 7x57.

[S.B.]

Please, everyone, can we get back to more civil discussion? These personal attacks don't solve anything.

[Cossack2]

Realistically (and ballistically)  there is no reason to trade from a 300 Win to the 35 Whalen, assuming you're not getting a better gun in the process. You can do everything and more in the former just by using (more readily available for 308  caliber)  premium bullets. Of course, if you're out to sustain a dying breed and soon to be one-of- few in the woods, just to be different, by all means scratch that itch. I load for six 'cats, none of which do anything better than existing domesticated calibers and can therefore relate to the need to be different.

[rickt300]

My 300 Win mag was not as flexible as I would have liked. It was a good long range elk rifle but it was loud, long and too destructive on deer generally.  It also did not handle reduced loads well. My 35 Whelen is easily loaded to 2500 fps with 200 grain bullets for a 250 yard deer/hog rifle for a comfortable to shoot easily handled rifle and with a 250 grain bullet to a bit under 2600fps which does kick a bit but still in an easily handled rifle capable of killing elk or bigger game at over 300 yards. On paper it looks as if the 300 magnums have it all but in reality most of us don't need every last foot pound of energy for those over 400 yard shots very often.

[Brithunter]

Please, everyone, can we get back to more civil discussion? These personal attacks don't solve anything.

Errrr what personal attacks?

The fact that a member here cannot tell fact from fiction is not a personal attack it's common knowledge. I suppose we can all bury our heads and totally ignore it but how will that help those that answer serious questions and get fantasy and often purely inaccurate answers from that same member 

[One Eye]

Would you guys sell a Remington 700 BDL in .300 Win Mag for a custom Mauser in .35 Whelen for use out west and Alaska?  I do want to get into reloading and I know you can use .30/06 brass to make Whelen.  What you you guys think? 

Nope.  I have had a 300 Win Mag for over 20 years, and it has killed everything I have pulled the trigger on.  Shots have ranged from 10 feet to 400 yards.  Great shooting caliber.
Dan

[jro45]

I own a 300 Win. Mag. and not a 35 Whelen. I would not part with my 300 WM. If I wanted the 35 Whelen I would save up and buy one. My 300 WM is one of my favorite
rifles. I also have the 300 RUM and shooting 200gr Nosler partitions I took it to Africa and killed 4 different animals.

[cjensen]

Now that we have settled the 300wm vs 35 question, should I trade my 7mm mag for a 338-06

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote hunter  Did you know you were compareing the 35 rem not 35 whelen?

...

No, and it turns out that I wasn't.  I assume you were referring to my post on page 1 where I compared the downrange energy of several cartridges.  While the data I used was for Remington's .35 Whelen cartridge, I had inadvertently labeled it 35 REM.  My error, which I have since corrected.  The fpe data remains unchanged.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention so I could correct the labeling error.

[S.B.]

Coyote Hunter, we can see by ever post you've made on this thread, your not a proponent of the .35 Whelen but, it's still one of my favorite loadings. Different strokes for different folks? I think you've made your point, well.
Steve

[Bart Solo]

SB, Coyote Hunter lives in the land of wide open spaces.  Flat, fast and far are central to his shooting.  In the age of the partition bullet, muzzle break, and Limbsaver recoil pad the Whelen's old fashioned advantages are not so important.  Who knows, he might be right. 

You are also right. Different strokes for different folks. 

[S.B.]

I think you, like many here, have misunderstood my post? I never dissed his post or said he was wrong? Only he has made his point. Nice of you to defend without provocation.
Steve

[Bart Solo]

S.B., misunderstanding a post is easy to do. 

By the way as I recall the "point blank" range on elk of the 35 Whelen 250 grain Spitzer is a little more than 300 yards if zero is 3 inches high at 100 yards.  How does it compare with the 300 Win Mag?  Isn't the 300 Win Mag's point blank using a 180 grain bullet closer to 380 yards?  Isn't that last 80 yards or so where the 300 Win Mag shines? 

[S.B.]

Ron, from the Reloaders page:
With  the possible exception the Nosler225 grain Partition, heavier bullets are better choices for larger game. For elk, moose, and bear, the Speerand Barnes250 grain spitzers at 2500 fps deliver a ton of energy at 300 yards. When zeroed three inches high at 100 yards, both have a point blank range of about325 yards on a bull elk's vital area.
How much energy does the Win. 30 mag. have left at this range with this weight of bullets?
I still think the Whelen does a good job for what it is.
Steve

[Bart Solo]

I still think the Whelen does a good job for what it is.
Steve

So do I. That is why my next rifle is probably going to be a 35 Whelen.  (Unless something else comes along and whispers sweet nothings in my ear.  )

[Coyote Hunter]

Coyote Hunter, we can see by ever post you've made on this thread, your not a proponent of the .35 Whelen but, it's still one of my favorite loadings. Different strokes for different folks? I think you've made your point, well.
Steve

Steve -

It's not that I don't care for the 35 Whelen, but rather I wouldn't trade a perfectly good .300 WM to get one.  There is a subtle  but very real difference.

While I think the .300 WM suits my needs better, I have a pretty high regard for the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen.

[Coyote Hunter]

Ron, from the Reloaders page:
With  the possible exception the Nosler225 grain Partition, heavier bullets are better choices for larger game. For elk, moose, and bear, the Speerand Barnes250 grain spitzers at 2500 fps deliver a ton of energy at 300 yards. When zeroed three inches high at 100 yards, both have a point blank range of about325 yards on a bull elk's vital area.
How much energy does the Win. 30 mag. have left at this range with this weight of bullets?
I still think the Whelen does a good job for what it is.
Steve

I don’t know anyone that makes a 250g bullet in .308”, but the .300WM can easily deliver more energy downrange than the .35 Whelen with 250g bullets.

Here’s some energy figures for Remington .35 Whelen loads and Federal .300 Win Mag loads:

Code: [Select]

Bullet                               FPE@Muzzle     FPE@100     FPE@200     FPE@300     FPE@400
.35 Whelen (REM) 200g PSP              3177            2510        1958       1506        1145 
.35 Whelen (REM) 250g PSP              3197            2680        2230       1844        1515
.300 WM (Fed)    180g Partition        3502            3042        2642       2280        1959
.300 WM (Fed)    180g MRX              3502            3108        2752       2429        2136
.300 WM (Fed)    200g Trophy Bonded    3237            2422        2273       1884        1549

As you can see, the Federal 180g .300WM load delivers more energy at all the ranges listed than does the Remington .35 Whelen 250g load.  (The two vendors were chosen because I don’t know who makes 250g  .35 Whelen ammo other than Remington and, b) I like Federal’s choice of bullets – when I buy factory hunting ammo, rare as that is, I buy Federal.) 

As for trajectories, here are some comparisons with all loads zeroed at 200 yards:

Code: [Select]

Remington 250g factory load, BC .409, 2400fps,   drop @ 400 = 33.2”
Speer 250g Hot-Cor, BC .446, 2500fps,            drop @ 400 = 28.9”
Federal 180g Barnes MRX, .BC 473, 2960fps,       drop @ 400 = 19.4”
Barnes 180g MRX, BC .473, 3044fps (my load),     drop @ 400 = 18.2”

Now let’s compare with the loads zeroed the way I do, MPBR for a 6” diameter target (max 3” rise or drop):

Code: [Select]

Remington 250g factory load, BC .409, 2400fps,   drop @ 400 = 32.6” (MPBR 240yds, zero 204yds, 1515fpe per Remington)
Speer 250g Hot-Cor, BC .446, 2500fps,            drop @ 400 = 28.9” (MPBR 250yds, zero 212yds, 1825fpe calculated)
Federal 180g Barnes MRX, .BC 473, 2960fps,       drop @ 400 = 19.4” (MPBR 296yds, zero 251yds, 2136fpe per Federal)
Barnes 180g MRX, BC .473, 3044fps (my load),     drop @ 400 = 18.2” (MPBR 302yds, zero 257yds, 2132fpe calculated)


If you want to figure out the drops with a zero 3” high at 100 yards, go for it, but the .300WM will still come out ahead by a fair margin.  I didn’t calculate the drops that way because I don’t find that method as useful as MPBR zeroing.

As I’ve said before, though, in a life-threatening situation I would not want to rely on the difference between a .300WM and a .35 Whelen,   Give me my Marlin .45-70 and 460g hardcast instead!!!

[S.B.]

In your first chart you compare two Remington factory loads for the Whelen with three premium loads for the .300WM, you call that a fair comparison?
Your second chart doesn't even list what caliber your talking about? Of course there is less drop when the bullets are lighter.
Your third chart is useless to me, I don't shoot game anywhere near that distance. You have very carefully chosen your computer statistics but, a fair comparason would enclude either all premium or factory for this? IMHO.
Maybe we should ask some the guys from Alaska, they surely would have an opinion of both calibers?
I don't mean to say the .300WM isn't a good caliber but, let's talk apples to apples, please?
Steve

[Coyote Hunter]

In your first chart you compare two Remington factory loads for the Whelen with three premium loads for the .300WM, you call that a fair comparison?

Since all the loads in the first chart were factory loads, and since I couldn’t find any more factory 250g Whelen loads, premium or not, the answer is a resounding “YES”.  Sorry if the bullet and load selection for the .35 Whelen is rather pathetic when compared to the .300 Win Mag, but that’s the reality of the choices as they exist today.

I could have used Winchester or Remington 180g loads for the .300 Win Mag, but there really wasn’t much difference with the bullets I would use for hunting (which would NOT include standard cup-and-core bullets for the .300WM).

Your second chart doesn't even list what caliber your talking about? Of course there is less drop when the bullets are lighter.

Since we were discussing 250g bullets for the Whelen and 180g bullets for the .300 Win Mag, and since I don’t know of any 180g rifle bullets for the .35 Whelen or 250g bullets for the .300 Win Mag (Barnes no longer makes them), I thought the continuity of thought would be obvious.  No so for some of us, I guess.

Lighter bullets do not necessarily drop less – just compare some .30-30 loads to the .35 Whelen.  In addition to bullet weight you have to compare Ballistic Coefficients and initial velocity.

My point, of course, was that the .300 Win Mag loads listed not only delivered as much or more energy as the .35 Whelen 250g loads, yes, in this case the lighter bullets correspond to less drop.  Which is one reason I shoot a .300WM.

Your third chart is useless to me, I don't shoot game anywhere near that distance. You have very carefully chosen your computer statistics but, a fair comparason would enclude either all premium or factory for this? IMHO.
Maybe we should ask some the guys from Alaska, they surely would have an opinion of both calibers?
I don't mean to say the .300WM isn't a good caliber but, let's talk apples to apples, please?
Steve

Many people do find themselves in situations where a 400 yard shot – or longer- is a real possibility.  The chart, although it was in response to your post, was not intended solely for your edification.  The chart may be useless to you, but it won’t be to everyone – including myself.

Find me some premium 250g Whelen loads and I’ll be happy to compare them.  Until then I’ll have to work with what I can find.

The computer stats started out by showing energy levels from 100 to 400 yards for several factory loads.  I see nothing unfair about that unless you’re complaining I didn’t extend the range far enough.

If you think you can provide a more apples-to-apples comparison for the type of hunting I do, please feel free to try.  Please bear in mind I handload, shoot premium bullets whenever possible, and develop my  loads to provide the best combination of accuracy and useful range.  When selecting factory backup ammo I tend to choose with the same criteria in mind.

Again, nothing wrong with the .35 Whelen in my book.  In fact the .35 Whelen, .338-06 and .338 Scovill were top contenders for a custom rifle I am building.  At the moment, however, it looks like the winner is a .375 Ruger necked down to .338.  If for some reason I decide not to go with the wildcat .338-375 Ruger, the Whelen and Scovill will be the top two candidates.

[Bart Solo]

Coyote Hunter

You realize that the Remington factory loads are primarily intended for the 750 Woodmaster.  They are intentionally anemic.

From what I have read most of the bolt action Whelen users are also reloaders.   I will give you that the 300 WM Mag has a much more robust selection of factory ammunition.   

[nomosendero]

And with quality loads for both, the 300WM still kicks butt. I like the 35Whelen, but beyond 300 yards the 300 smokes it bad. Under 300 yards they both kill the same animals. That doesn't take away the value of the 35W, just a different application. You can rig up the 35 for short to medium range with the proper tube length, lower powered variable & have a great gun, I have thought of getting a CDL. But I will never try to do everything with the 35W that I do with the 300, because it can't.

[Coyote Hunter]

Ron -

Anemic or not, the Remington loads are the only major name 250g loads I could find.  Not much of a selection for the guy that shoots factory ammo.

If I didn’t handload my interest in the .35 Whelen would be slightly higher than my interest in battlefield pickups, which is zilch.

[S.B.]

Let's face it the Wileen has been a wild cat most of it's life and so ammunition factory's have chosen to ignore it. Rolling your own is an important factor for a Wileen.
Steve

[bilmac]

You don't need a lot of exotic, whiz bang ammo for a Whelen, it just works.

[Bart Solo]

But I will never try to do everything with the 35W that I do with the 300, because it can't. nomosendero

For me the real question is will you try to use a 300 Win Mag to do everything a 35 Whelen can do? 

I happen to agree with you, comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.  The Whelen is generally found in short barreled rifles intended for use in the northern boreal forest.  The 300 Win Mag doesn't really shine unless it's barrel is 26 inches long or longer if you use a screw on muzzle brake.   One is best when carried by a man in tight quarters and the other is made to be carried by a horse over miles and miles of the great wide open west.

Two different rifles, two different applications.  Isn't it great that we don't have to chose between the two.