Author Topic: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?  (Read 10302 times)

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Offline Dixie Dude

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Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« on: September 16, 2007, 05:37:31 PM »
Would you guys sell a Remington 700 BDL in .300 Win Mag for a custom Mauser in .35 Whelen for use out west and Alaska?  I do want to get into reloading and I know you can use .30/06 brass to make Whelen.  What you you guys think? 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2007, 05:39:21 PM »
If I had a .300 Win Mag (and I once did) I would definitely sell it. In fact I did or actually traded it for a .270 Winchester. So would I go from a .300WM to a .35 Whelen? In a heart beat.


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Offline superdown

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2007, 05:58:32 PM »
Their is no doubt i would in a new-york second. superdown

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2007, 02:31:17 AM »
Never!  The Whelan is a fine round but I believe the .300 Win is more versatile, especially for the handloader.

My first .300 Win Mag loads duplicated .308 Win velocities with 165-168g bullets.  While I now shoot 180g bullets at full power, mostly for elk but I use them for everything, I would not feel at all under gunned in Alaska with the .300 and 200-220g bullets.  The .300 will fling 130-168g bullets really fast and flat if that is your preference.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2007, 07:38:25 AM »
So far it is two to one to get the Whelen.  Interesting.  I would like to keep both.  May have to get the Whelen later if the guy still has it or buy a new one if someone still makes it. 

Offline Questor

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 08:07:28 AM »
It depends on whether you want the flat trajectory of the 300 or the larger hole and deep penetration of the 35. For animals larger than deer, I prefer the larger bullet.  If you need to make 300 yard shots, definitely keep the 300.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 09:24:03 AM »
I've never been out west or Alaska hunting.  I am trying to get opinions before I go.  I know the .300 might be better on long range shots to caribou and elk, but on moose or bear, the .35 would be better.  However 300 yard shots seem to be quite a distance.  I would realisticly feel that a 200-250 shot would be my maximum effective range. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 09:31:31 AM »
The Whelan is perfectly adequate for 300 yard shots. It's adequate for the ranges the vast majority of shooters are capable of shooting to in fact.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 09:36:14 AM »
 I've owned both. My reply is not just no but heck NO!

 the 35W is one hard kicking round every bit as much as 300WM. Past 200yds ballistics for the 300 will leave the 35 n the dust. Both will kill larger critters deader than a box of rocks inside 200yds. a Also there are a whopping 2 mainstream ammo manufacturers that load for the 35Whelen vs Everyone for the 300WM. Lastly there's no way in heck I would trade a good Rem 700 for someones Bubba Hackjob Mauser "custom" ::)

 There is no benefit whatsoever in going from a 300WM to a 35W

Offline Syncerus

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 09:45:03 AM »
I'm another fan of the .300 WM. But ...

If you don't like the rifle that much, trade it for one that you do like. Life's too short to hunt with guns that clunk (for you).
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 11:49:39 AM »
The .35 Whelen is not a hack job.  A retired gunsmith was selling it.  He ordered the receiver and action from FN in Belgium, put on a walnut stock with glass bedding, made his own barrel.  It looks to be a really nice rifle.  His hands are shaking now, and I didn't ask, but he may not be able to hunt anymore.  He said he used it to hunt out west.  I would probably not be taking shots over 200-250 yards.  I can't really perceive of a 300 yard shot, being from the southeast.  I am eventually going to get into reloading, so I can use .30/06 brass.  I might just have to buy it, try it out, and see which one I like the most.  I just thought it would be a better bear and moose gun, but still allow me to shoot elk, caribou, and deer. 

Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 12:02:16 PM »
Quote
I just thought it would be a better bear and moose gun, but still allow me to shoot elk, caribou, and deer.

 I assure you the 35W won't kill bear or moose any deader than your current 300 will.

Quote
The .35 Whelen is not a hack job.  A retired gunsmith was selling it.  He ordered the receiver and action from FN in Belgium, put on a walnut stock with glass bedding, made his own barrel.  It looks to be a really nice rifle.

 When it comes time to sell, You'll find that in the eyes of any savvy buyer it's a bubba. Gunbroker.com is overflowing with overpriced mix master mausers in all sorts of chamberings. Not to be confused with VERY high end customs that are engraved checkered and had wood fitted to them fit for a king. In those cases the stock blank costs more than the entire rifle you have in question.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 01:19:29 PM »
No

Offline The Gamemaster

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 01:27:01 PM »
I am wondering what is the point of your question?

Did you start this topic to get some attention?  Or did you start it - to see what kind of answers people would give you?  Did you start it because you were thinking of getting rid of your rifle and trading it for something else and was just not sure that you were getting a good deal.

I am not going to reassure you that you trade would be a sound one.  As a matter of fact, I would have to agree with other forum members that said that a surplus Mauser is not a good trade for a factory rifle in good condition.

Furthermore, you seem so intent on making your own ammo that you keep saying that you can make your own out of surplus '06 brass.

The people that I associate with buys the 35 Wheelen brass to make .270 Gibbs ammo.  They would probably tell you that you might be able to fire form brass out of other cartridges and still be OK.  But you are asking a lot out of old brass.  You would be better off to BUY new brass or once fired cases for what you intend to do with it.

Factory produced ammo has a much better contricity and tolerance all around than someone that is trying to neck up a factory shell.

I have shot both calibers and still own a .300 Winchester Magnum.  Which in my opinion - if you want to shoot .300 Winchester Magnums - you buy a .300 Winchester Magnum and not a 8 mm and rechamber it for something else.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 04:15:35 PM »
Ha  ;D
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Offline corbanzo

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 04:50:16 PM »
I would keep your 300 mag if you dont reload and want to use it in Alaska.  You are gonna find 300WM ammo everywhere, and I mean everywhere.  And it will kill everything, and I mean everything. 

300 mag over 35 whelen in a second.

And if you want to get into reloading, you can do a rediculous amount with the 300 WM.  Load it down to black tail level, load it up to brown bear level.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2007, 01:40:18 AM »
I have a 30.06 already, and have a lot of once fired brass.  With the right tools .35 Whelen can be made from these without fire forming.  I do not have any military surplus brass, and haven't seen any in years.  I also know reloading .300 WM shouldn't be a problem.  I have a lot of rifles, and was thinking of thinning out some and getting a handfull of good all-round calibers.  I have heard a lot of good things about the Whelen and wanted one to try out.  Was weighing my options. 
Thanks for the replies.

Offline Mnswede

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2007, 03:15:53 AM »
Keep the 300 Win Mag, much more versatile round especially since you can reload.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2007, 04:25:01 AM »
I have a 30.06 already, and have a lot of once fired brass.  With the right tools .35 Whelen can be made from these without fire forming.  I do not have any military surplus brass, and haven't seen any in years.  I also know reloading .300 WM shouldn't be a problem.  I have a lot of rifles, and was thinking of thinning out some and getting a handfull of good all-round calibers.  I have heard a lot of good things about the Whelen and wanted one to try out.  Was weighing my options. 
Thanks for the replies.

You say you want a "handfull of good all-round calibers" but it seems to me you already have a good start with the .30-06 and the .300 Win Mag.

A couple of comments:

1.  I have no doubt the general quality of the .35 Whelen is good but I would prefer a barrel made by someone that makes them every day, not a gunsmith that makes them on an occasional basis.

2.  200 to 250 yards is not a long shot out west.  While my longest in 25 years has been 350, I live out here and hunt every year and have passed on many that were longer and gone home empty-handed as a result.  Is that what you want to do on a rare and relatively expensive western hunt?  If you haven’t practiced at 300 yards and beyond, my advice is to start.  Doing so will help your short-range shooting and help prepare you for longer should it be necessary.  It will also help you learn to judge range better, something that can be very useful out west where you are often shooting over a false horizon or across drainages of various sorts that make range estimation very difficult.

3.  The difference in stopping power between a .300 Win with a 200-220g bullet and a .35 Whelen with a 250g bullet isn’t anything I’d want to stake my life on.  (And given modern bullets I’m not sure which is better anyway.)  If I want a stopper for big bears I’ll take my Marlin .45-70 and 350-460g bullets, bonded or hardcast.

4.  I shot a new Ruger Alaskan in .375 Ruger a few weeks ago.  If I was buying a big bear gun in a bolt configuration, that would be the cartridge I would want.
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Offline charles p

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2007, 05:44:02 AM »
Do you trade.  You have the better rifle now.

Offline Lead Poison

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2007, 08:44:16 AM »
No...

Though a good cartridge; I wouldn't trade a good 300 Win. Mag for a 35 Whelen.

Offline corbanzo

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2007, 06:07:30 PM »
And for hunting, you can kill anything in Alaska at 300 yards with that 30-06, if its not a moose or brown bear or musk ox, even out past 500 yards.  Sheep and goats are really the only reason you need to shoot that far... maybe caribou if you are hunting really open terrain. 

The 300 mag is what is going to gain you a little bit more range.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Brithunter

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2007, 10:38:13 PM »
Yep in a heart beat.

    In fact if the rifle was built as you describe there is no contest regardless of chamberings. A Custom rifle on a commercial FN action is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than a Remington 700.

   Now as to chamberings, the 35 Wheelan of course has a largfer diameter bullet and to my mind therefore delivers greater initial shock and also leaves a larger permanant would channel. It's a more effiecient cartridge than the .300 Win Mag having a better expansion ratio just like the 8x57 has a better expansion ration than the 30-06. I don't actually have a  .35 Wheelan as I already have a 9.3x57mm which although has a slightly lower velocites still has plenty of velocity and power for anything I require.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2007, 10:44:57 PM »
Dang Brithunter did we just agree on something?  :o Better be careful so we don't do that too often.  ;D


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 12:27:18 AM »
Found out it was a 9.3x62 or something like that, and because the caliber was not readily available in the US, he rebarreled to a .35 Whelen.  I'm still debating.  Could use both.  .300 WM on Caribou and Elk long distance.  .35 at closer ranges for moose and bear.  Going out west next summer to scope things out on a camping trip.  Alaska will come later. 

Offline Dee

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 12:30:33 AM »
Would I trade a 300 Win Mag for a 35 Whelen? Without a doubt.
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Offline demented

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2007, 01:48:18 AM »
 How well does your rifle group?  My rule of thumb concerning rifles is "IF IT WILL GROUP MOA OR BETTER ITS MINE FOR LIFE."  Otherwise,  what you'd gain in practical use going from a widely used and available caliber to a pure handloading venture is ???

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2007, 03:48:41 AM »
Yep in a heart beat.

    In fact if the rifle was built as you describe there is no contest regardless of chamberings. A Custom rifle on a commercial FN action is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than a Remington 700.

   Now as to chamberings, the 35 Wheelan of course has a largfer diameter bullet and to my mind therefore delivers greater initial shock and also leaves a larger permanant would channel. It's a more effiecient cartridge than the .300 Win Mag having a better expansion ratio just like the 8x57 has a better expansion ration than the 30-06. I don't actually have a  .35 Wheelan as I already have a 9.3x57mm which although has a slightly lower velocites still has plenty of velocity and power for anything I require.


I’m not going to argue about an FN custom (which I would love to have) versus a Remington factory rifle except to say the devil is in the details.  In general I agree a FN would be nicer but its up to the individual rifles in the end.  A nice looking custom that shoots for crap isn’t worth anything to me.  Neither is a new factory rifle that shoots the same.  But I’ll take a factory job that shoots over a custom that doesn’t.  We don’t know how either of the two rifles in question shoot.

As to the chamberings…

1. Yes, the .35 Whelen has a larger diameter bullet.  A 250g is also heavier than a .300 win can shoot.  No argument there.

2. I’m not sure what you mean when you say the .35 has a “better expansion ratio” than a .300.  If we assume a 2x expansion for both the ratio is the same, but the .35 will have a larger diameter and more frontal area.  Are you suggesting the .35 will expand 2.5x (or whatever) and the .300 will do something less than that?  If so, what are you basing your argument on?  Doesn’t bullet construction and impact velocity play a big role here or are you contending it’s simply a matter of starting diameter?

3. As to delivering “greater initial shock”, that shock is a function of retained energy and how that energy is transferred to the animal.  One incontrovertible truth is that a bullet cannot transfer more energy than it starts with.  Here’s some energy figures for Remington .35 Whelen loads and Federal .300 Win Mag loads:

Code: [Select]
Bullet                               FPE@Muzzle     FPE@100     FPE@200     FPE@300     FPE@400
.35 Whelen (REM) 200g PSP              3177            2510        1958       1506        1145 
.35 Whelen (REM) 250g PSP              3197            2680        2230       1844        1515
.300 WM (Fed)    180g Partition        3502            3042        2642       2280        1959
.300 WM (Fed)    180g MRX              3502            3108        2752       2429        2136
.300 WM (Fed)    200g Trophy Bonded    3237            2422        2273       1884        1549

There are several points I’d like to make here. 

First, there is a better selection of factory ammo for the .300 Win Mag than there is for the .35 Whelen.  Remington is the only member of the Big Three (Remington,  Federal, Winchester) that even makes ammo for the Whelen. 

Second, and therefore not surprising, is the bullet selection for the .300 in factory ammo is much better – Trophy Bonded, Partition, TSX, MRX, Accubond, InterBond, FailSafe, and XP3 are all available for the .300 Win.

Third, the .300 Win Mag with a 200g load is very close to a .35 Whelen 250g load in terms of downrange energy.  Given that a bullet cannot transfer more energy than it starts with, the “initial shock” delivered depends on bullet design and weight, impact velocity and the efficiency of the transfer – n other words, how the bullet performs.  I think there are too many variables to simply say a .35 will outperform a .300 simply because of the initial diameter or bullet weight.  In fact, using the available factory ammo, I’d rather bet my life on the .300 Win Mag and the TSX, MRX, Trophy Bonded, XP3 or Partition over Remington’s .35 Whelen PSP bullets.

Fourth, the .300 Win Mag 180g loads easily exceed the .35 Whelen in terms of initial and downrange energy.  Once again bullet design, weight and impact velocity determine how the energy is transferred.  At bear charge stopping distances is a .35 Whelen with a 3197fpe/250g PSP load really better than a .300 Win with a 3502fpe/180g MRX or Partition load?  Again, using factory ammo, I’d rather bet my life on the .300 Win.

Fifth, handloading the .35 Whelen opens up a new world in terms of bullet selection and makes the .35 Whelen really shine.  Even with MRX, TSX, Trophy Bonded, A-Frame or Partition bullets, however, the .35 Whelen starts out at a disadvantage in the area of available energy, both at the muzzle and downrange, when compared to the .300 Win Mag.  It seems reasonable to expect the .300  and .35 bullets of similar design to perform in about the same manner, so the question is does the larger starting diameter and additional frontal area of the expanded .35 overcome the disadvantage in energy?  And the difference between a .35 and a .300 with a 220g Partition?  I think this would be really hard to prove one way or another.

Sixth, if we’re comparing the .35 with PSP bullets to the .300 with PSP bullets, I’d probably prefer the .35 with a 250g PSP for stopping a bear charge.  That comparison is rather silly for me, however, as I’d never use PSP or other cup-and-core bullets in my .300.  The .35’s  starting velocities (2675fps and 2400fps for the 200g and 250g respectively) are much more conducive to good performance with cup-and-core bullets than are .300 Win Mag velocities for 180g and 200g bullets. 

Finally, is the .35 Whelen a good choice for big bears and moose?  Of course it is.  Is the .300 Win Mag a good choice?  Ask the many that have fallen to it or the .30-06, which is still reportedly the #1 choice for Alaska’s hunting guides.  If Dixie Dude wants to trade, it should be on the basis that he favors the particular .35 Whelen rifle rather than some perceived, perhaps mythical, and certainly no more than marginal advantage in its stopping abilities.

If stopping ability is the only important issue, a .338 or .375 Magnum (including the .375 Ruger) or a properly loaded Marlin in .45-70 Government or 450 Marlin or even .444 Marlin would be my hands-down choice over either the .35 Whelen or .300 Win.  If versatility is the issue, I’ll take the .300 Win.

But that's just my choice.







Coyote Hunter
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2007, 04:38:43 AM »
I'm still debating this issue.  However, I feel like going ahead and buying the .35 Whelen because I can always pick up a .300 WM in any brand rifle later.  It would give me a chance to try it out, get a feel for the caliber.  I think Ruger and Remington still make the .35.  Doesn't Browning make the BAR in the .35 now?  Wish Hornady would make some light magnum ammo in the .35 also. 

Offline The Gamemaster

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Re: Would you sell .300 WM for a .35 Whelen?
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2007, 05:02:00 AM »
http://www.m-w.com/info/copyright.htm


Main Entry: sur·plus
Pronunciation: 's&r-(")pl&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin superplus, from Latin super- + plus more -- more at PLUS
1 a : the amount that remains when use or need is satisfied b : an excess of receipts over disbursements

I didn't say Military Surplus, I only said surplus.  A word that means left over.

The case capacity of the .35 Wheelen is larger than the case capacity of the 36 / 06, mainly due to the fact that the shoulder angle of the 35 Wheelen is different than that of the '06!

Yes you can neck up the 30 Govt. adopted in 1906 to .35,  But you cannot increase the case capacity of the '06 by necking up the brass.

So your max compressed loads for reloads will be less than a stock factory production case.

If you weren't so dense - you would have gotten it the first time.

To go one step further,  someone on here has a ballistic chart for a .35 Remington to compare to a 300 Winchester Magnum.  The funny thing is, the 300 Winchester Magnum is faster at 100 yards, then the .35 Remington is at the muzzle.  At 300 yards the drop of the .35 Remington is so much that you cannot even hit at what you aim at.

Ask me how I know.

Once upon a time, long time ago.  I worked at a local university as a maintenceman and one of my co workers came in with this tall tale of a monster buck behind his house - the third day of rifle season in Pennsylvania.  Since he did not hunt, there was no reason for this person to lie. 

Now this story took place before 9/11 and it really wasn't illegal for a person to take a hunting rifle to work with them - even at a state institution.  I had my .35 Remington and I went to this mans farm after work and found the buck he was talking about and I took several pot shots at it.  It actually ran to within 150 yards of me, but I had buck fever so bad I couldn't think straight.  I shot over it several times and I shot under it several times and I even managed to wound this deer.

One of the neighborhood farm kids took after this deer and we tracked it through light snow and bare ground for more than 1 mile.  I didn't get the deer.

Why was I hunting with a .35 Remington?  Because I was poor and it was for sale for a price that I could afford and I wanted a Gamemaster Pump Rifle and that was what it was.

I had my grandfathers '06 bolt action rifle at home, but I was afraid that someone might steal it out of my vehicle while I was at work.  I really was not concerned if someone stole the .35 or not.

I had several opportunities to purchase a .35 Wheelen after that, and found that it did not shoot any better than a '06.  As a matter of fact, it had poor ballistics compared to a '06 or 308 or .270 Winchester.

One well placed shot will kill any animal as long as it penetrates the animal to the vital areas of the body and leaves an adequate wound channel.  Dead is dead.  A cow elk cannot tell you if it was shot with a 270 or a 308 or a 30/06.  All it knows is something hit it and it's going down.

A 300 Winchester Magnum makes a loud bang and packs a wallop when it hits something.

You cannot tell me that a 35 Wheelen - with 20 less grains of powder is going to hit with the same intensity as a 300 Winchester Magnum!  It just isn't possible!