Sometimes I just have to shake my head....

[corbanzo]

I was watching the outdoor channel today... while I should of been moose hunting...  and there was one of the hosts of a show, hunting moose in Alaska wiht a guide.  They find some really nice moose up north somewhere (from the trees).  The hunter, who is on TV, so I supposed I know what he is doing, takes four shots on the moose to drop him.  The first one on the show took three shots.  I have never seen, nor heard of a moose taking four shots to drop. 

During the hunt, the guide is talking about what nice shots he is taking(I'm still confused) and then after the hunt, he is talking about his nice, lightweight, 270. 

What I have to ask is please.  If you are going to be on tv, dont make an idiot of yourself making my moose suffer.  Either take a better shot to drop it (you can take an easy spine shot with a 270 from 60 yards, believe me) or get a bigger caliber.  OR - stay back down in the 48 and hunt deer.

I'm glad it is your "experience of a lifetime," but I find it extremely disrespectful to me when you come to my state unprepared to kill quickly, and then try and make yourself seem like you did great.  If we divide your 60 inch rack by 4 shots, you are only getting 15 inches per shot.  That isn't that good buddy.

I have no problem with the 270 for hunting.  I have no problem with people from outside hunting in Alaska.

I do have a problem with someone who is on a hunting show, and should supposedly have some hunting experience botching a moose hunt, and trying to make it look good.  When they cannot use their selected caliber effectively.

[deltecs]

As an Alaskan hunter, I too would not want to brag about using 4 shots to kill a moose with a .270 Win.  I've used a .270 Win for taking moose and have never needed more than 2 shots, all of the second shots just were to expediate the inevitable.  Again, we do not know what bullets the hunter used.  It could be 130, 140, or 150's.  I personally use 170 gr round nose for moose.  I think this is a substantial difference above the lower weight bullets.  As for using smaller calibers than traditionally used for bigger game, one ought to use the heaviest bullets available and be positive of shot placement before squeezing the trigger.  That should be done anyway, but we all know it isn't always true.

[Daveinthebush]

Unfortunately for the guides, they never know what quality of hunter they are going to be taking out.  A 350 pound guy might show up for a goat hunt on a 4,000 foot mountain.  Or, an arm chair sportsman with a bore sighted rifle that he only uses once a year to harvest his whitetail.   I think it is Sweden where you have to actually pass a proficiency test before hunting moose.

[Sourdough]

A couple of years ago my friend who was working as an assistant guide brought a client into Moose camp.  This guy was carrying a .308.  A short gun, carbine lenght.  I don't remember the manufactor, just a little bolt gun.  Anyway I took him out to the river the day he arrived and had him shoot some targets.  He hit them with decent groups, but I told him he really needed a bigger gun.  He was offended, and started telling me how many deer that little gun had killed.

Four days later when he got his chance to shoot a Moose, he used all his cartridges, six rounds. He then watched the Moose walk away, and was unable to do anything about it.  Using my .338 TCR I placed one shot in the center of the shoulder knocking the Moose down.  I was sitting back in heavy brush, when I made the 300 yard shot.  The client was over 500 yards from me and never heard the shot.  The client saw the Moose go down and he thought his bullets finally did the job.  I never said anything to him about it.  When we were skinning the Moose out my partner found all six of the .308 bullets in the heart lung area.  The client kept saying how it took all six of his shots to bring the Moose down.  When my partner found the seventh bullet he noticed it was not a .308, then looked at me and smiled.  We never told the client anything, let him think his .308 brought down the Moose.  They deffinately would have killed it, just not soon enough for him to collect it.  I shot it just as it was ready to step into the river.  Once it had gone into the water we never would have found it.

[NONYA]

Good story,I have seen the same happen with an elk and a .243 at about 150 yards,4 shots in the front shoulder/boiler room and that elk was running around like it hadnt been hit,went up over a big ridge and was never recovered,the kids Dad tried to tell us he missed,we saw all 4 shots impact on the elk and found blood in the snow,after we pointed out the blood the Dad trailed the elk until dark and said it crossed 2 more ridges without stopping.

[Sourdough]

The only down side is that this guy will now tell everyone that a .308 is adiquate for Moose, and he has the head to prove it.

[weasel]

Since Daveinthebush brought it up, we've had some goat hunters suprise us, 2 so far on bottled oxygen, one 83 yr. old, who told us he was 73, one with a custom long range rifle, right hand, he shot ( or tried to shoot) left-handed, a 53 yr old with a 2-pack-a-day habit and emphysema. Oddly enough, almost all got their goat, most wouldn't if we didn't use horses. Hunter last week fell and broke his bolt handle off, then watched a possible B&C goat walk within 30 yds, we couldn't figure how to get 1 in the chamber.

[NONYA]

Sounds entertaining!

[WaitsLong]

Considering inadequate cartridges, could a head shot penetrate the skull?

I know head shots are hard to make and hitting up near the antlers may
just knock them down temporarily.

Also, stories of small pistol 38 or 9mm used for defense against bears,
with bad results.
Will these cartridges penetrate the skull of a bear or will they glance off.

[NYHunter]

Would an '06, shooting high energy 180 gr. partition bullets from Federal, ( 3300 lbs. of energy lbs at the muzzle ), be adequate for moose out to 300 yd. (+ -)? If that's too light then my thought would be the .35 Whelen with 250 gr. bullets.

What do you recommend as a minimum standard caliber, non-belted mag? 

 

[SHOOTALL]

ya got to ask - who would spend what a hunt cost and carry an under powered round !

[Sourdough]

NYHunter:  Depends on the shooter, and the situation or setting.  If the Moose did not know the hunter was there, and the shot was placed right.  Yes, a 30-06 would do the job.  But the average shooter can't hit a one gallon milk jug at 200 yards let alone 300.  So therefore how is he going to place his shot right.  The 30-06 is good, the .35 Whelen is better, but the .338WM has them both beat.  I carry a 30-06 a lot, but I live in hunting Paradise (Alaska).  If I was not living here, and on the hunt of a life time, I would want every advantage I could get in my favor.  The minimum I would carry would be a .338WM.

Let me rephraise that:  The minimum would be the .35 Whelen, with a good premium bullet.  With my Whelens I like to shoot the .225gr Nosler Partition.  With my .338s I like the .225gr Nosler partition also.

 

[SHOOTALL]

what is an average shooter ? we hear this all the time !
i feel the term shooter is mis-leading , cause if they can't hit a gallon jug at 200 yds with an average high powered rifle  they ain't no shooter to start with ! except a bad shooter ! Just my $ .02 worth !

[NONYA]

I know 10 year old kids that can hit alot smaller targets with a 270 OFFHAND,i dont know what the average shooter is in your neck of the woods but everyone I know that shoots can do SUB MILK JUG groups at 200.

[Sourdough]

I refer to the group of people that come to the range the two weeks before hunting season.  The people that we know are very similer to us and usually are shooters also.  But think about the people that live down the road, the guy that manages the local Wal-Mart, or the guy serving you at the local McDonalds.  Or the people you see at the Airport when you are traveling.  A lot of the people that are wanting to get into the sport now have had no training what so ever, and the rest don't practice enough to be proficient.  Most of them can't hit anything beyond 200 yards.  They aren't like the people here on this forum who like to shoot and know what they are doing.  Let's face guys we are a minority.  You know when I was growing up in Tennessee all young boys were taught to shoot by either their Fathers or Grandfathers.  But I'm seeing guys at the range that never shot a gun before in their lives.  Others that think they are great, you know the types, a legend in their own minds.  Since I am a shooting instructor and teach kids 10 to 17, I tend to notice the results of others at the range.  Some days it's a group of people that all know what they are doing.  The next day it will consist of half the people not knowing what the "180gr SP" stand for on the box of cartridges they are carrying.  These kinds of people vastly outnumber the real shooters during those weeks.  Then I see the results in the field.  Dead Moose that got away, Caribou with bullet holes in their hips, or hear a lot of shooting in a valley.  When you go there and meet the people coming out they claim they missed all six or seven shots.

I got to say this:  One of the kids I helped teach when my son was going through his shooting classes was in the group of shooters that met President Bush last week in the White House.  He now shoots on the University Of Alaska Fairbanks Shooting Team.  I won't take credit on his shooting abilities, I only taught the gun safety protion of the course.  The credit goes to Bud Burris, Grant Lewis, and all the range workers at the Tanana Vally Sportsman's Association.  And to the Coach at UAF

[SDS-GEN]

Consider also that many people from east of the Mississippi river live in states that require them to use slug guns, or they hunt deer that live in deep ravines and thick brush.  Some of these guys have never killed anything past 60-70 yards, despite growing up around guns.  Or they live in cities where the nearest 2 or 300 yard range is an hours drive or more away.  I know guys who go out every year and kill a whitetail with grandpa's ole smoothbore and a foster slug.  They look down the barrel and line up that front bead on a deer that is 40 yards out and knock him right over.  It works here in the midwest, most of the time, but it sounds like way too many people take that attitude and ballistic knowlege with them out west or up north. 
 
Fitness and firearm knowledge aren't the only downfalls for people seeking adventure in BIG places.  While elk hunting one year in the mountains of Colorado one of our party came across a lost soul who was in complete panic.  We suspect the guy just got turned around in the woods.  Then, the more he wandered the more freaked out he got.  Now keep in mind this area is big, but very easy to navigate, there is one huge valley that runs east-west for about eight miles.  If you get lost pull out your compass and head north or south till you hit the valley then hike upstream(east) until you hit the road  there is even a horse trail along the stream that will take you out.  This guy was mentally unprepared and hadn't the equipment or fortitude to spend the night in the woods.  He asked my friend how to "get out".  My friend pointed east and said the road is that way, the guy took off running cross country before my friend could explain that there was a nice trail a hundred yards away that led all the way to the road.

Also the outfitter in that area runs drop camps and has had people abandon camp when the snow got too deep for them.  I mean they leave all their equipment and just get to the road as fast as they can.

[SHOOTALL]

I love all this BS placed on east of the MISSISSIPPI river ! better check out those old slug guns 200 yard guns now ! as far as grandpas old gun , we sold them to people west of the miss. and folks up north for 10 times there worth so we could afford big hunting trips ! ya'll ever heard of a South Carolina bean field rifle , the ones they shoot deer out to 800 + yards ? I do believe SC is east of the miss. I have hunted west of the Mississippi and Canada , the locals didn't seem to draw from any better gene pool than the south , saw plenty Walmarts up there !  as far as shooting skill and lack of ranges , if you want to be a marksman you will find a way , anything less is not a shooter !
Please don't feel sorry for the east or south , we never give the north or west a thought when 15-20 deer pass our stand and half are bucks with a couple wall hangers in the bunch ! one of the biggest problems we face is scraping up money for the mounts ( sold the old smooth bore for the Canada trip ) . I have 3 racks right now i'm saving funds for to get mounted ! we get 3 bucks and at least 16 does with bonus tags . Ya'll have a good season now ya hear !

[SDS-GEN]

Yes, sorry Shootall, I should have excluded South Carolina.  I forgot everyone there is born a marksman, and any five year old girl can knock the bottom out of a dixie cup with a slug gun at 500 yards. 

Read my post man, I said many people east of the Mississippi, not everyone east of the Mississippi.  Of all the hunters I know about half are what I would consider good shots who know their limits and the limits of their equipment.  The rest just get out and shoot a couple of times a year.  And I run with a bunch of competetive shooters.  A lot of guys just get together in deer camp and have a good time away from the wife, they try to get a deer, but if they don't it isn't a big deal to them.

People on this sight are, mostly, probably pretty serious about their hunting, they spend time at the range and strive to improve their skills.  I'm just not sure the average person you meet out hunting this fall is so serious about it and wanted to give some insight as to why.

[Sourdough]

SDS-Gen:  You're pretty much in line with what I've been trying to get across.  I'll give my four brothers as an example.
 
Jimmy lives in Tennessee, and is a Trucker:  Now Jimmy knows what he is doing.  Jimmy decides where he is going to hunt.  He has scouted his area and knows the terrain.  If he is going to hunt on our Grandma's place, he takes his .444 Marlin.  He knows any shots will be close and quick.
If he is going to our cousins place, he takes his 270.  There he will be in areas of big hay and soybean fields, and a long shot will be the rule.  Jimmy usually gets two or more deer a year.  Jimmy cleans his gun after each trip.  Jimmy also hunts turkey, rabbits, squirrels, and varmits during the off season.

David lives in Tennessee, and is a Construction Contractor:  Gets his Marlin 336 in 30-30 out the day before going hunting and shoots it once to make sure it works.  Never shoots a deer over 20 to 30 yards away.  When he gets home he cleans the gun leans it in the corner of the closet and forgets about it till next year.

Darrell lives in Tennessee, and is (Who knows this week) a Mortition, Trucker, Warehouseman, Welder. (He changes jobs like he changes his shirts):  The day of the hunt gets his gun out (an Italian Carcano in 6.5) and throws it in the truck.  Hasn't shot it since the last deer experience several years ago.  Hasn't cleaned it since he bought it.  Remembers his shells (Darn) and goes back into the house to find them.  Brings out a box with four live shells in it.  Now he's ready.  I ask about his shells, since the box is all beat up and looks like it's been wet, as I drive around his wife's Lexus.  His reply, "Them things cost money Buba, Daddy give me that box when I got the gun 20 years ago.  No reason to replace them, just because Katy (his daughtor) dropped them in the bathtub.  By the way where we going?"  Darrell hasn't shot a deer in 15-16 years.  Yet he knows all about hunting and guns, just ask him he'll tell you anything you want to know.  Plus somestuff you don't want to know.

Rob lives in Texas, and is a Corperate Manager:  Rob is pretty much like Jimmy, he looks at the area he will be hunting and chooses his gun accordingly.  If he is hunting on his father-in-laws place in east Texas he uses his 30-30.  Lots of brush and close woods.  If he is going to the ranch in west Texas he takes his 25-06 due to longer shots being possiable.  Rob cleans his gun before and after each trip.   Rob also hunts birds, hogs, and varmits during the year.

My middle two brothers are the kind that scare me to be in the woods with.  Especially Darrell, sometimes I think if he don't accidentally shoot me, I'll shoot him just to shut his big mouth.  I try and not ask Darrel along, and some years I don't.  But then other years my Mom will call and invite him for us, and get mad when we try and tell her we really don't want him along.

There you go a typical example of 50% not being what we consider true hunters.  But they think they are just ask them.  Dad took me out and taught me about hunting when I was small, but trying to support a growing family, and avoid my mother, he was not around a lot after that.  My Grandfather took Jimmy, and I took Rob when he came to stay with the wife and I when he was in his early teens.  David got the same training Jimmy did from our Grandfather, but he is too busy maintaining his millionaire status.  Darrell is too busy trying to copy David.

[SHOOTALL]

so why east of the Mississippi ? sounds like ya'll feel every one west of the mighty miss came from South Carolina !
guess none of them miss ! as far as the brothers , 25% were on the west side of the big river !
i see your point and agree with all but the back east BS !

[corbanzo]

You know, it really had nothing to do with the people in the region, it has to do with the animals in the region.  If there were a bunch of 1400lb deer down in georgia, I bet they wouldn't have so many 30-30's down there, and you would see a lot more .338's.  If Alaska didn't have moose or bears, we would have no reason to have .375 mags.

So really when you talk about someone east of the mississippi, you are talking about someone who has never seen an elk or a moose or a big brown bear.  Up north they get moose, but even the subspecies of moose in maine are 300-400lbs smaller than moose in Alaska and northwest canada.  If you come somewhere that you think your .308 or 30-30 can kill everything and anything, then you go somewhere else with bigger game with that same mindset. 

"It walks like a deer, so my .243 can kill it, like it kills lots of deer."  Sorry bub, it ain't a deer.

And also, if you grow up shooting a light rifle with light recoil, and then you need something larger, you aren't going to shoot as well.

I grew up on a 30-06, and the first time I shot my .458lott, I hit a pie plate 4 our of 5 times... at 30 yards.  Think I am going to hunt with that thing?  Not then, I would now that I'm used to it.  I know that is a big difference, but even shooting a .338 mag for the first time hits you a lot harder than a -06 does, and it is going to throw off your shooting. 

So being from somewhere doesn't make you an inherently bad shooter.  It just makes you inexperenced with the guns, the terrain, and the game.  Which means, you need to learn, I dont care where you are from.  My brother is from here in Alaska, he grew up the same place I did, but even we are into totally different things.  I wouldn't hand him my -06 right now and tell him to shoot a moose, cause I doubt he could do it.  I think it's even been a couple of years since he even shot a rifle, and I know he has never really practiced for accuracy. 

So sorry if you are offended, but if you aren't from here, and you don't have the experience, you don't know how to hunt like we do.  End of story.

[SHOOTALL]

i have no problem with my 338 win mag. nor do i find the 458 win mag a problem . but if you must fabricate a story of BS in an effort to boost your ego have at it ! around here guys get high power sports cars when they go thru. their mid-life crisis , guess a big gun will work also !

[corbanzo]

No fabrications here, I'm talking about experience. 

[SHOOTALL]

then you show little experience with shooters from the east !

[corbanzo]

And I won't come to the east and pretend I know what I'm doing out there.  Don't come to Alaska and think you have a clue, like many others do.

[SHOOTALL]

Don't plan to ! but i can shoot !

[Two Bears]

so why east of the Mississippi ? sounds like ya'll feel every one west of the mighty miss came from South Carolina !
guess none of them miss ! as far as the brothers , 25% were on the west side of the big river !
i see your point and agree with all but the back east BS !




Why east of the OL Miss. ?

Its the same reason that we say "south of Interstate 80"  (that cuts through southern Iowa), its just too close to Missouri...Kind of reminds me of a song from deliverance.

[corbanzo]

I guess I'll just have to put everybody south of latitude 60 next time ;D;D

[SHOOTALL]

YOU BETCHA ! EH ?

[corbanzo]

60N and 140W....