A Very unusual event with no answer

[Fred M]

Last year my Handi in 257 Robert developed a gap again. I shot a lot of 75gr V-max out in the gopher fields.
When I tried my 100gr hunting loads the accuracy was gone. So the 257Roberts became a wall hanger. I fixed the gap to zero gaps and tested the hunting loads and found the rifle back to the expected accuracy. But no
further shooting was done for a year.

A few days ago I decided to check out the rifle since I had in mind to use it for deer again this year. I toke two boxes of last years ammo to the range to check on the zero. First load goes click no fire cocked the rifle again and the load fired. Second round exactly the same, click first and then fire. Well I quit shooting right now and put the gun away.
The two shots were 4 inches strung one on top of the other. This tells me bad ignition or what???

At home I toke four rounds out of each box, pulled the bullets and dumped
the powder. Each one of the primers fired with no misfire. Subsequently I cleaned out the action washed it with penetrating fluid and blew it out with air.
There was no indication of any transfer bar hang ups or any other unusual constriction of the trigger and hammer parts. I installed a new hammer spring just to make sure even though there was nothing wrong with the old one.
New primers fired with no misfire and the rifle worked as it should be.
Why the two misfires one after the other?

Like stuck cases misfires are bad news in the woods. I had all sorts of trouble with hammer springs before, giving up the ghost . A lot of shooting will loosen up the torsion hammer spring. The last one went after about 250 rounds.
Well after this, that 257 Roberts is not going to see a lot of shooting
anymore.  I think a gummed up transfer bar was at the bottom of it. I will make a new batch of ammo for hunting and take the rest of them apart.

It comes down to the question, how reliable is a Handi action.
I sure like to get rid of that transfer bar. It would have to be a rebounding
hammer to be safe. Fortunatly I have a Ruger #1 in 257 Roberts without
hic ups.

[chad1043]

I'm new here and a little young, but I have heard from everyone about how great H&R's Customer Service is, why not give them a call and explain your problem. They might have some ideas?

Chad

[Foggy]

Fred
I had a similar thing happen In the late '90s with my Whelen and factory ammo I was checking zero  on my RMEF I had 2 fail to fires but not back to back. I thought it was the factory Ammo  chamber issue that whelens seem to have, I mostly shoot reloads and they go every time  tried them in my model 700 classic fail to fire too . did as you pulled bullets dumped powder retried the empties  still fail to fire    I went to loading press wraped it in an old surplus flak curtain  punched the primers and to my supprise no anvil in the go figure. kinda like  Bigfoot you  don;t expect to see it but you just did
Foggy

[Fred M]

Foggy
The most stunning thing is, that two consecetive rounds did not fire on the
first blow but fired on the second blow. Then the verticle string 4" up and
down. The two primers had to have anvils in order to fire at all.

At home they all fired. I have been wrecking my brain how this could
have happened. Nothing is bent or worn

Chad1043.
Thanks for the input but I worked on Handi's so much I can usually  resolve
most problems on my own. Besides the rifle is back to shooting mode.

[handirifle]

Fred,
In light of all the other things you did check, it almost sounds to me as though the trigger MAY not have been pulled completely.

Has it been long since you shot the Handi, that this might have been the issue?  That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Smokin Joe]

Fred, I had the same problem a few years ago with a transfer bar rifle as well as with a non-transfer bar rifle. I kinda finally figured out that it was some gunk of some kind in the firing pin area that was knocked out after the third try.
 By the way, I love the older non-transfer bar receiver that I have. Great trigger, and no Lawyer-Pleasing bar to screw things up. I wish NEF/H&R would let us sign a waiver for a non-transfer bar or maybe someone can come up with a workable replacement rebounding hammer.

[PigBoy Crabshaw]

What year did the transfer bar go into effect?

[Mac11700]

I've had the same problem you have Fred...with no rhyme or reason on why they wouldn't fire..This was with a 96 RMEF 35 Whelen...and a 2000 30-06...and a new Remington 788 in 7-08 right after it came out as a factory SAAMI round...With all rifles and with factory ammo...all unfired ammo had perfectly centered strikes in the primer cup..I have also had 1 lot of Winchester LR primers do the same thing with reloads...and would get only 50% fire rate from them..Buy a different lot of primers and see if it happens again...All of the second firings went high...which could have been me pulling off...

Mac

[Fred M]

Handirifle.
Yes it could be possible, but when I shoot a Handi I pull the trigger with my
second finger joint no chance to stop the trigger untill it comes to a stop at the
end of the pull.

Two, my Handi trigger return spring has only a few ounces of resistence, even with
pulling the trigger like on most guns I never stopped the trigger. But I wont rule it out. Yes I have been using my low wall and the Rugers #1 where the trigger stops
when it breaks.

My 17HMR low wall and the 6x47 Handi go out together and I shoot them both when one gun gets hot. No problems with misfires, and I do pay attention when I switch to the Handi. I am not saying I am infallible. I do hate that tranfer bar,it is the worst way to pull a trigger with the follow through.

But by now I thought to be used to that silly trigger, maby not???

[Fred M]

Mac
The primers I use in both Handi's are Winchester large and small. I  can't
recall ever having a misfire. The reason I choose the Winchester, they are
softer than most others.

In the Rugers I use the CCI and for the 6ppc and 30BR the Federal Match. I
had trouble with the small CCI Match primers in my Viper action which are
very hard. The springs in these BR actions are on the light side for obvious reasons.

Well for what its worth I will get some Rem primers they are soft too,for the Handi hunting loads, if for no other reason than piece of mind. This
experience was a real shocker.

[Mac11700]

Fred:

FWIW...I use the Remington 9-1/2 primer more than any other..It gives better consistency across the board for the loads I use it in..

Mac

[handirifle]

Fred,
I don't know if you marked those two cases or not but have you checked them to see if by some odd chance they could be sized differently?  Maybe, with a capitol M, the shoulder got pushed back a few thou?  Just another thought.

What about primer pocket depth on those cases, since they were the only ones to missfire.  Or, from what I've read, a possibility the primers were NOT seated completely.  This, I'm sure you know, causes the firing pin to fully seat the primer on first strike and make it fire second time around.

[PartsMan]

Just bring it over and I'll check it out.
May take year or two though.

[Fred M]

Handirifle.
Yes there are a lot of questions and suppositions. To answer your questions
yes I inspected the two fired cases found nothing unusual.

I hand load all my ammo to BR standards. That includes primer pockets uniforming, flashhole uniforming, deburring the inside of the flash hole, uniforming case length and outside neck turning.

My dies are set up to set the shoulder back so the case is flush with the end of
the chamber, zero head space. I seat the primers with a Lee priming tool which gives you a good feel when the primer is fully seated.

When you put the loaded ammo in a cartridge box with the primer up, that will
give you a second look if a primer sticks out and is not fully seated.

Shooting with all these different triggers, two of them break at 1.5 oz and most others 24-32oz. The follow through on a Handi can be missed easy enough specially when you have not fired the rifle for a year.

[rbergum95]

fred, good luck on figuring out the problem. im sure the answer will come to you in time. it may or may not be any one of the possibilities already mentioned.

[quickdtoo]

Fred, I know what it is, it's the Handi gods haunting you for all the bad things you've said about Handis!! It's not nice to fool with the Handi gods, you know!!

Tim

[Odinbreaker]

yoy got it figured Quick i think it happens to me often

[McLernon]

I had 'primer problems' when I  first got my 223. It turned out that I had cleaned out the primer pockets to full depth and this combined with a shorter firing pin was giving me misfires and 'dropped' shots. The WWB never did this so when I reloaded my Winchester cases I only cleaned the fouling out of the pockets so that the primers were flush with the case head surface-------no more misfires----ever.

Mc

[Fred M]

Tim.
Did never say anything bad about the 6x47. Guess I take it huntig for deer.
But I will send a prayer to the Handi gods and beg for forgiveness and have them put a blessing on the Handi below. It never FTF. Eh, that abbreviation
means failed to fire. Firing buckets of ammo it may give up the ghost some day. Notice the new Burris 6.5-20x50 scope it has the ballistic plex. What a
hoot. I am glad I have one Handi that shoots really good I can brag about.

[quickdtoo]

 

[Ireload2]

>>>I think a gummed up transfer bar was at the bottom of it.<<<
I have seen Hoppes gum up Remington 700 and 788 triggers so bad that the firing pin would override the sear when you close the bolt.
If you use it it could it could gum up a firing pin or a transfer bar.
I also have a S&W Model 1000 20ga autoloading skeet gun (made by Howa) that has felt like I was going to break the trigger the first time I fired it after sitting up a while. After the first shot it works normally. 
What shooting I have done with the Handi does not leave much of a dent in the 9 1/2 Remington primers I use. With the 38-55 there is not much pressure to enhance the appearance of the dent.
The only other guns I have fired that had a puny firing pin dent were those that had a light internal hammer.
1. Various pump and autoloading shotguns...but they always fire.
2. The 640K Mossberg bolt action has a hammer and I had to work on it a little to avoid misfires. Still has a puny dent.
3. A Remington 760 pump....35 Remington. This one always fires.

[Chilachuck]

Unless something else gets proven, I'd bet on the gun getting a little gum somewhere. You did not wash out any squashed spider parts, did you?

You ever hear of a river otter getting into a cabin and taking a dump on a rifle receiver? Aggravation. Blasted fish bones.

[Roudy]

Fred,
If you ever figure out what is causing the problem I would also like to know.  I have a M157 in 30-30 that started doing the same thing, very consistently.....two blows of the hammer to ignite the primer.  Someone mentioned that this model has two sides to the hammer spring and one side might be broken so I ordered a replacement from Numerich....they sent a newer model spring so I haven't torn it apart yet.

Roudy

[Fred M]

Yesterday I fired off all my 257 Rob ammo for the Handi 32 in total. Had two more miss fires, one fired with the second blow the other one did not fire at all. So it seems the Winchester primers did cause the trouble.

Alas I tried to buy some Rem 9-1/2 but non were available. Will try another store?

The ammo otherwise shot well at 100yrds and accuracy was as before, very good. My friend at the lake has a 100 and 250yrds concrete benches in an
area well protected from winds. The weather was simply super for shooting.

[quickdtoo]

Fred, the Rem 9½ primers are hard to find here too, good luck finding them. I bought a brick from Sportsmans a few months ago when they finally got some in, was checking last week, none available again. They did have a few bricks of CCI, so I grabbed them, just in case, just like Handis, a fella can never have too many primers.

Tim

[Fred M]

Roudy
This two legged spring should provide really good ignition, if one side is broken it
would cause ignition trouble. Try not to use CCI primers these are very hard and will not fire every time in a Handi.

[Mac11700]

Fred, the Rem 9½ primers are hard to find here too, good luck finding them. I bought a brick from Sportsmans a few months ago when they finally got some in, was checking last week, none available again. They did have a few bricks of CCI, so I grabbed them, just in case, just like Handis, a fella can never have too many primers.

Tim

Tim....It must be a regional thing...cause they are available... http://www.grafs.com/fc/browse.php?page=2&p=3528&q=&v=&s=..and on the shelves around here..

Fred...I'm glad you got it figured out

Mac

[Fred M]

Tim.
As luck would have it I found 98 Rem primer im my supplies, I thought I was out of them. That wiil get me going until I get a new brick.

[OBXPilgrim]

Fred, might want to measure the firing pin stick-out also. 

If you take the barrel off, pull the trigger, ease the hammer down til it hits the frame & measure the stick-out. 

Then take the bolt out of one of those bent-handle shooting irons you got piled up everywhere & measure the stickout of the firing pin after you de-cock it.  How much for each?

Then look at where that hammer hits the frame & envision how much off the hammer face (not the part that hits the transfer bar) would make the firing pin stick-out the same as that bolt gun pin.  I've got an M1 Garand stick-out gage that's marked .044"/.059" - if that helps.

[Fred M]

OBXPilgrim
If you have ever been to my web site you will see I have done considerable up-grading on the ignition system on my two Handi's. I have about 0.050" firing pin projection, no worries there.

It would be nice if someone would make some silicon nickel torsion springs for the hammer. These would not loose their tension and would provide fire in
the hole without fail for as long as the gun lasts.