Author Topic: 500s&w-460-454?  (Read 3382 times)

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Offline m-g Willy

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500s&w-460-454?
« on: September 21, 2007, 02:40:11 AM »
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WHO has these guns and has taken game with them?
And with the same shot placement would a 44 mag, done as good of job as these cannons did?
I live in Ohio and the 44 seems more than enough gun for deer and pig.
Never shot anything bigger than 300 lbs (yet)
But the 454 sure looks like a champ for hunting Alaska.


Willy

Offline myronman3

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 03:09:06 AM »
they wont kill anything any deader than the mighty 44.    they just cost more,  burn more powder and dazzle with a tremendous muzzle flash, and make people flinch more.   
   now some will tell you they can shoot them all day with no problem; and i know that there ARE a handful of folks out there that can effectively use some big bore cannons.  but realistically,  the vast majority of people using these things are ego maniacs who kid themselves about their abiltiies.   all the power in the world wont make up for shot placement.   
   for all about to flame,  show me,  tell the blind.   seeing is believing,  and  i have watched people shoot these things,  and i know they are flat out ridiculous.   
 the 44 will serve you well. 

Offline kennisondan

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 10:04:23 AM »
if the question is will the 44 perform plenty well for deer and pigs : of course it will
If the question is : is there any justification other than ego or just wanting something different or just wanting something that can be loaded up beyond what a 44 can handily do .... that is different.
I think that you will find there are a fair number of folks that beleive even the 44 mag to full power or with 300 grain bullets is pushing the envelope of the need for power for whitetails and other medium game, as long a non-deforming bullets are used for the really heavy bone and gristle on the shoulder of pigs or for less than optimum shots on deer like quartering away and needing tremendous penetration.
I think you will find a sampling who feel that there is an optimum bullet weight and comfort zone with the 44 or the 45 colt and that if you think you need more penetration than that, get a bigger gun. That bigger gun can be loaded down to the same comfortable shooting experience as the 44 or 45 colt without the abuse of the really hot heavy loads in the 44/45 guns. 
I think you will find that some folks just want to know that the gun they have will be fine for loading up to elk, buffalo, big bad bears, etc should the need or opportunity arise to require or prefer it.  I do realize that the 44 has killed everything there is, just about, in the world and can do so.. but not as comfortably as a bigger gun loaded down.
If you do not handload, and decide you want the option to exceed 44 or 45 capabilites, you could consider getting a caliber that can be also used with less powerful loads : like the 44 Mag can shoot specials and the 460 can use 454 and 45 colt; and the 475 can use 480 ruger.  The 445 supermag can use the 44 mag, and 44 special, too.
I beleive that you will find that a 45 colt or 44 special will handle what you say you are going using the gun for at this point... with factory loadings, not necessarily the heaviest bullets for the guns, either; especially if shot placement is good and ranges are short.
I do think there are some folks who buy the big guns so that they can experience it and will let it go to sale or to the safe pretty quickly once the new experience is had and that wears off.  Some just want to hand it to someone and let them watch the person experience it for themselves. You can get the same experience with a 45 colt with cor bons wieghing 300gr. and estimated at 1300 fps - in your Ruger strength pistols (at least ) not in replicas or original colts, though. Same thing with 44 mag garrett 300 grainers out of the box.. the recoil will be substantial and possibly abusive to the shooter.
If you want to shoot a big gun, get one. If you load it down you can shoot it comfortably and it will handle heavier bullets and it will of course you can load it up for anything else that you decide to shoot at.
If you want a 44 get one and realize you can load it up with handloads or expensive factory loads so that you will not likely think you are missing anything whether you want the experience or you want to shoot something really big and tough. I did not get a big gun cause I had to have it, I already had a 44 and a 45 and wanted to get it and load it down for the experience, to have it in case I wanted to load it up, and for variety. It will shoot a 420 grain bullet with my little handloads very effectively, but it is not necessary.  I also bought the aforementioned factory 44 and 45 ammo and shot them for the experience and to know just what they will do... the 300 grain 45 cor bon bullet penetrated a 12 by 12 ages old bridge timber and slammed a cirt backstop... do I need that for deer and pig, NO will I use it... NOT LIKELY .. it was not that comfortable nor cheap  to shoot and could lead to some flinching if not treated with respect. I see the bigger guns and the heavier faster bullet loadings the same way... not needed for my little whitetail hunting for the most part, but it can be used and it just adds variety and flexibility to my hunting and shooting. If I only had one gun it would be the 44 mag, though, and I would not be afraid to use it for anything anywhere if I was a good enough shot especially. They all have plenty of whoopee to them and can give you what you want.. if you want the least recoil, cost and wow factor and to use the minimal power for efficiency, perhaps a 357 is the ticket for you. It is able to go further down the recoil ladder, and can kill deer and pigs just fine, with the right ammo, really.. it is just limited ingoing up the performance and recoil ladder -- though that recoil and performance is not required, it is just an option... thre is nothing wrong with getting a big gun, just with using a gun that you cannot handle or will not put in the time to learn to handle or that you will never learn to shoot well enough to ethically hunt big game with.  If the limit for your comfort and ability to practice enough to get really good is one caliber gun or the other then get that one; if you have a choice within your limitations on recoil and possibly time and financial ability for practicing with it then make that choice based on what you can find on the shelves, what the people you share stuff with have, what is cheaper when you find it, or what ever seems to appeal to you.
If you get the chance, shoot a couple of specimens with different grips and different loads in each one top end, lower power, etc. and make a choice. There is not a scarcity of loads for most guns, and there are many choices available. I like the 44 as my old standby, I have just shot it a lot and wanted another additional choice of gun to master, that can suffice if my dream of bigger game would ever come true, and I load it down to very comfy recoil with heavier bullets than needed. When I want to I will bring it and punch a bigger hole through a deer than with my 44 or 45, and likely I will have a shot that, should I have wanted to - I could harvest the deer with a lung shot from a 22 mag contender or certainly the Just Enough 357 mag. I have killed them with a 357 with 38 silver tips in the cylinders from a short barreled ruger : straight through the chest area, lungs, heart, exit out the rib cage on the far side..
it is just a matter of choice, not need; like using a handgun in the first place to make it a little more sporting or more a challenge... some folks just want to say they can shoot it well enough, some can, some need help with using their rifles and go with big rifles for distance and killing power, but don't need that either, and bigger stronger guns do not make up for shot placement ever.
dk

Offline odoh

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 10:55:26 AM »
Isn't it great we still have choices?

Offline Dusty Miller

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 01:22:01 PM »
Don't apologize if your "ego" tells you to get a 500 S&W, just go for it and enjoy it. 
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline timothy

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2007, 03:03:36 PM »
Bigger calibers may not kill em deader but they should kill em quicker. This is of course and always will be theory since theres no way to talk a deer into letting you shoot him twice. But given the exact same shot of same distance, impact, bullet and penetration a 500 s&w SHOULD kill a bison or jackrabbit quicker than a 44.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2007, 03:48:24 PM »
i only shoot the 454 out of the three , i don't have a problem with the recoil , i have learned to cope with it ! it takes some experince , but its worth the effort if you want to extend the range you shoot . The beauty of the 454 is a light bullet at higher speed ie: flater shooting , less sight adjustment . some say thats why the cyl. on freedom arms guns  are short , i really don't know ! but you can get more powder or equal powder in a ruger 45 Colt redhawk with heavy bullets than you can in the freedom arms , so it would appear some degree of truth may be in light bullet . you can always load down or shoot 45 Colts in the 454 so you get the best of both worlds !
for deer i like a load between the 45 Colt and the 454 some where around a 44 mag when hunting close cover which we do often , it aids in recovery time , in the open the full house 454 can be used as more time is aval. for a second shot if nessary .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2007, 01:08:10 AM »
heres my take on it. My favorite round is the 44mag. Ive taken more game with it then all the other calibers combined. Biggest was a 800 lb bufflao this year. To be honest if i would have had one of my 500s with me i would have used it but the opertunity came up and all I had was the 44 and it did fine. Id say that if a guy is hunting nothing but black bear, pigs, or deer you need to look no further then a 44mag or 45 colt. But personaly when the animal tops 500 lbs i prefer something a little bigger. They just tend to anchor animals quicker and are capable of busting down much bigger bone stuctured animals. Animals that size just dont react to bullet hits like smaller animals do. I have to laugh at people who bad mouth the big bores and call the dinasour slaying guns. A 500 linebaugh loaded to the gills has about the same power level as factory 4570s out of a lever gun and ive never heard it say that factory level 4570s are over powered for anything. Most guys that hunt with 4570s are searching the loading manuals to find a load that is more powerful the what they call the anemic black powder level 4570 factory ammo. People tend to think that because a gun kicks and bellows that it is some kind of a death ray and it isnt the case. Ive shot two buffalo with the 500s now and youd be surprised at the lack of interst a bufflao shows at being hit by a 450 grain slug. One of them kept eating!! No doubt recoil levels can be intense with the big bores and there not a gun for a once a month shooter. A guy is better off even on big game to use a gun they can shoot well but about anyone that puts his mind to it can master a big gun. I actually have more problems shooting heavy recoiling rifles then i do heavy recoiling handguns. Another thing with recoil is that a 500 or 475 can idle 400s at 900 fps and actually have less felt recoil then top end heavy cast 44 or 45 colt loads and still do a better job of penetrating big bones. A handgun isnt going to shock any animal no matter what the caliber. Thats why I preach the use of cast bullets at moderate velocitys vs jacketed at high velocity. All your doing pushing a jacketed bullet fast is insureing that it isnt going to penetrate as well. ITS NOT GOING TO BLOW ANYTHING OFF ITS FEET! Even in a 44 mag id take a 250 cast at 1000 fps over a 240 jhp at any speed. I know for a fact that cast slug is going to hit the vitals every time! To say that a 44 will kill as well as a 500 is kind of rediculous. How can it be compared. You cant hit the exact same animal the exact same way with both guns at the exact same time to compare and even if you did they wouldnt react the anyway. Its no differnt then if two guys were hunting cape buffalo. ONe with a 338 and one with a 458. Both will kill the animal under ideal conditions but when conditions werent so ideal i know which one id rather have in my hands. There is more to this discussion then some of you are or can address. Bottom line is a guy could take a 3030 and load it to kill about any animal in the world but i dont see many people doing it. If you cant pay the price in recoil or the price of admitition into getting a big gun so be it. But if you can they can be much more effective at a larger varitey of hunting applications then the smaller guns can.  I could tolarate advice form someone that has used both in the field and has an opinion on it but not from someone who has never shot one let alone used one on game and gets his opinion from someone else. Contrary to what some people think we all dont shoot them to impress you or anyone esle. 99 percent of my shooting is alone at my private range. No doubt some guns are bought by egotistical idiots but not to many guys will spend 2-3000 on a gun just to impress there neighbors. Keep in mind too that when the .357 and 44 mags were introduced people were saying the same things about these guns and the people who bought them. Next time you laugh at someone out there deer hunting with a big handgun take a look at the gun your using. Id about bet that half of you use 7 mags or 300 mags or even 270s or 06s. Whos the one out there with the over powered gun me or you!!!!
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Offline Slufoot

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2007, 02:21:40 AM »
Great post Lloyd Smale!

"Contrary to what some people think we all dont shoot them to impress you or anyone esle. 99 percent of my shooting is alone at my private range."

Amen, I enjoy shooting with family and friends but 99% of the time it's just me.

I've got a 454 Casull and I made my longest revolver shot on a big whitetail doe with it. Conditions were perfect, I had a solid rest and the deer was hit perfectly behind the shoulder, from 115 yards away. I personally would not have attempted this shot with my 44 magnum.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2007, 02:41:56 AM »
I shoot a 44 Mag., a 460 S&W Mag. & a 500 S&W Mag.  They're all quite adequate for anything through black bear.

Your average 44 Mag., in my opinion, isn't good enough accuracy wise for 100 yard shots though mine is.

The 460 S&W Mag. has the accuracy potential for 200 yard shots.  Mine will do in the 2 to 2.5 inch 3 shot group range from 100 yards off the bench.

Of the three, I've gotten the best accuracy with my 500 S&W; 1 to 1.5 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards off the bench.  I haven't shot it at 200 yards yet.  Shoot a 500 S&W Mag. some and then the recoil of the 460 S&W and lesser cartridges will seem a bit puny.  Wear a glove and use ear protection though.

All of the above are Encores/Contenders.

Offline m-g Willy

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2007, 03:20:04 AM »
Great post Lloyd Smale!



I've got a 454 Casull and I made my longest revolver shot on a big whitetail doe with it. Conditions were perfect, I had a solid rest and the deer was hit perfectly behind the shoulder, from 115 yards away. I personally would not have attempted this shot with my 44 magnum.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot



WHY NOT? The 44 would have more than enough power to penetrate a deer at 115yards with the same shot placement.


I guess I didn't make myself clear when starting this thread (sorry guys)
What I want to know is -who has taken game with these cannons ?and would the 44mag with the same shot placement  have done just as good?(animal?-shot placement?-range? -and penetration?)
I've been using 357-44mag.-45colt in the field for over 30 years.
I know what a 44mag will do on a white tail from just about any angle you can think of  from under 10 out to 100 yards.
(MOST) but (NOT ALL) the deer I've taken would have dropped just as fast with the 357 with the same shot placement.
I was thinking that if the 44 can break through the heavy bones of the game your hunting than anything else is wasted energy!
This wisdom coming from someone that has never taken anything over 300lbs. (yet ;))
So anyothers with exp with these cannons who think a 44 would'nt have done the job thier cannons DID.


Willy

Offline Slufoot

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2007, 03:44:10 AM »

Hello m-g Willy,

Quote
WHY NOT? The 44 would have more than enough power to penetrate a deer at 115yards with the same shot placement.

Quote
I know what a 44mag will do on a white tail from just about any angle you can think of  from under 10 out to 100 yards.


You kinda answered your own question. The 44 would definetly have enough power but due to it's trajectory I have a self imposed limit of 100 yards with a revolver. The 454 pushing a 300 grain bullet at just over 1600 fps shoots quite a bit flatter and extends my range another 50 yards. I have a Ruger SRH that David Clements has tuned and customized for me. It's got a 9.5" barrel wears a 4x Leupold scope and is accurate enough to place a bullet in the vitals of a deer out to my maximum self imposed limit of 150 yards.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot






Offline m-g Willy

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2007, 04:13:34 AM »

Hello m-g Willy,

[ I have a Ruger SRH that David Clements has tuned and customized for me. It's got a 9.5" barrel wears a 4x Leupold scope and is accurate enough to place a bullet in the vitals of a deer out to my maximum self imposed limit of 150 yards.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot







Thanks for the reply

But thats' what I'm getting at.
You could have made the same shot with a 44 with the same set up.
Sighted in at 50 yards what would a 44 drop at 100yards? 2" at most?
It might make a differance shooting at a squirrril but I doubt it would make much differance on a deer.


Willy

Offline Slufoot

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2007, 04:58:56 AM »

Hello m-g Willy,


Thanks for the reply

But thats' what I'm getting at.
You could have made the same shot with a 44 with the same set up.
Sighted in at 50 yards what would a 44 drop at 100yards? 2" at most?
It might make a differance shooting at a squirrril but I doubt it would make much differance on a deer.


Willy


Hello Willy,
I wouldn't have taken the shot because I new the deer was over 100 yards away. I know my limitations and the limitations of the equipment I use and I make my decisions in the field based on that knowledge. I do alot of practicing throughout the year so that I can make that one good shot on game. I love to hunt and I deeply respect the animals that God put on this earth to allow us to eat. The worst thing I could do is to wound an animal because of taking a shot that I know is out of my comfort zone. This to me is gambling, chances are i'd make the shot but there is also the chance I'd make a bad shot. This is a gamble that I personally will not take, that is why I stick with my range limitations.
Three years ago was my first year hunting with a traditional recurve bow. I knew that 20 yards was my maximum range. I had a very nice 8-pointer stop broadside at 25 yards and stood there for several minutes looking directly away from me. I never took the shot because I knew he was to far away for my ability with the equipment I had chosen to use. The beautiful buck then just walked away but I'll never forget the great experience of watching him and the adrienalin pumping through my blood.
Two days later this buck came back through and this time he stopped at 10 yards and I put an arrow right behind his shoulder.
I love to hunt and shoot but I hate to make a bad shot. That is why I know my limitaions and I stick with them.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2007, 09:50:29 AM »
I dont buy into the flatter shooting answer. Ive hunted with about every handgun round made (not a 460 though) and they all need to be compensated for trajectory so as long as i know my gun and load i dont care if its going 1200fps or 2000 fps at any range im going to take an animal and yes that includes out to 200 yards although i think it takes more then a capable gun at that range it takes a shooter that is a one in a 1000 shooter. Just because you can shoot 4 inch groups off a bench at 2oo yards with  your smith doesnt make it or you a 2oo yard combo on game. Field condtions and hunting pressure in my opinion make it a 100 yard proposition for about every hunter. Now i shoot alot of handguns and shoot almost every day and i dont include myself in that exclusive club and if you think your up to it id sure like to shoot along side of you someday because i could sure use a lesson. TO me what the 454 and yes ill include the 460 in this gain over a 45 colt is very little. Maybe the ability to shoot 350 grain bullets ( which are about whats the max weight a 45 bullet will be effiecent) to 1300 fps which is about all the velocity a guy needs as any more can hurt as much as help. Where you gain power in a handgun is buy pushing a bullet with a bigger metplat and more weight at those same velocitys. Sure it can be argued that a 350 wfn 45  bullet has the same metplat and wieght as ta 350 lfn 475 but i can about guranatee you that the 475 will outperform both on game and in accuracy out past a 100 yards any wfn 45. Now make that 475 a 400 grain bullet and your going really pick up penetration and probably long range accuracy. I cant see how anyone can claim a game animal shoot with one caliber would have been dead just as quickly with anohter. Hell ive shot game in simular spots with the same caliber and they reacted completely different. Like i said i shoot more 44s and have taken more game with 44s then all the other guns i shoot combined but when faced with a hunt of a lifetime for a animal that can go over 1000 lbs i know mine would stay at home. Hell a deer or a black bear can be killed with a 22 pistol. But why when you have the proper tool. Many many deer and bear have been shot up here by the 3220 and ive taken some myself and it worked just fine. Does it make it the alitmate deer and bear gun. No not by a long shot. Ive seen quite a few deer harvested with a 357 too but ive seen it fail miserably at it too. Ill give you this much a guy that is profiicent with a 44 is alot more likely to kill cleanly then a guy with a 475. But a guy with a 475 that can shoot it well is better armed for hunt really large game and its not going to tear a deer in half thats for sure. So why bash someone that wants to use it. Like i said the deer woods are full of guys using 4570s 444s 06 270 and lots out there with various 7 and 30 mags and no one is telling them that they are overgunned macho people and there guns are substantialy more powerful and definately will do more meat damage then any 475 or 500 load will. If you personaly cant handle them fine but there are people who handle them just fine thankyou. Why is it guys cant stand something that intiminates them and rather then educateing themselves bad mouth it and the people that use it. Personaly i dont care what guns other people use or recomend i go out and find out for myself what works and use it and surely wouldnt badmouth anyone for choosing something differnt. I dont care if you squirell hunt with a 458 mag or deer hunt with a 2520. If you feel comfortable and can shoot it well enough both will work in either situation. Sorry if i got off topic a little but i get sick and tired of guys that are afraid of these big bores trying to tell me that im nuts using them when most have never even fired a round let alone killed something with one.
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Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 11:15:34 AM »
If someone has a .44 Magnum that can be sighted in to be dead on at 50 yards and drop " only 2" at most" at 100 yards, I want to buy that gun. The several dozen I've owned have all been typically sighted in to be between dead on  and 3/4 " high at 25 yds, resulting in being 1 to 2 " high at 50, dead on again at 75 and 6 to 8" low at 100. I must not be jerking the trigger properly, and require additional training from someone.

Offline odoh

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »
........... Personaly i dont care what guns other people use or recomend i go out and find out for myself what works and use it and surely wouldnt badmouth anyone for choosing something differnt. I dont care if you squirell hunt with a 458 mag or deer hunt with a 2520. If you feel comfortable and can shoot it well enough both will work in either situation. Sorry if i got off topic a little but i get sick and tired of guys that are afraid of these big bores trying to tell me that im nuts using them when most have never even fired a round let alone killed something with one.


Off topic I know but the comment brings to mind my friend 'Fred'. He would shoot prarie dogs w/a 458WinMag Ruger #1. We could never dispute his hits as it'd take out the mound in a cloud of dust also. Shot it over the hood of his p/u and every yr would have the local bodyshop in CO. Sprgs repaint his hood as the muzzle blast would erode it. Nobody criticized him (no one would dare) but it was fun to see some unsuspecting soul  ;D go out dog shooting w/him thinking his rifle to be a heavy barrelled varmint gun ~ the first shot would elicit candid comments indeed  ;) I traded him out of it many yrs back but had to let it go as I could not keep a grip on it from the bench ~ at times I feel regret having done so but it soon passes.

Thanks for bringing back the memories :)

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 12:51:06 PM »
I set my long range guns up with 2 or 3 gold bars on the front sight and once you take the time to actually shoot a few thousand rounds through a gun at various ranges its an easy matter to hold a little sight and hit out to well past a 100 yards. I took first place in a shoot in cody in the 44 class and with my accusport bilsey put 6 out of 6 hits on a steel 2/3s scale buffalo at 800 yards. Granted i dont know if they were kill zone hits but if a guy chopped 600 yards off that id about bet that gun i could do it. You dont need a flat shooting handgun to hit at long range what you do have to have is a handgun your intimate with. The buffalo hunters used a good many rifles that shot heavy cast at 1200 fps and surely didnt have any problem wiping out the buffalo heard. WHY? because they spent more time shooting then looking a bs ballistics tables and reading gun magazines that toted the newest flatest shooting guns. Ill say one more thing on it. Id take that 320 cast lfn out of my 44 over that silly pointed jacketed 200 grain rifle bullet they load in those smiths at 200 yards. That 320 grain 44 bullet will still penetrate a deer stem to stern at 200 yards if its started at 1200 fps. That 200 may be just fine on deer but i sure wouldnt want to bet the hunt of a lifetime on any jacketed handgun bullet going 2000 fps. Ive seen them fail at 1200. Bottom line is your smith is not a bit flatter shooting then a 3030 and alot of people sure dont consider them flat shooting.  If you seriously doubt the abiltiy to make hits at long range and i mean really long range with a 1200 fps handgun take a ride out to a linebaugh seminar someday where there are men that know how to shoot handguns and it will amaze you. I know i sure wouldnt want to be standing out at the 500 yard mark and give any one of them one crack at me!!!
If someone has a .44 Magnum that can be sighted in to be dead on at 50 yards and drop " only 2" at most" at 100 yards, I want to buy that gun. The several dozen I've owned have all been typically sighted in to be between dead on  and 3/4 " high at 25 yds, resulting in being 1 to 2 " high at 50, dead on again at 75 and 6 to 8" low at 100. I must not be jerking the trigger properly, and require additional training from someone.
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Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 04:18:42 PM »
Lloyd,
Having spent more than 20 years successfully competing in IHMSA and NRA long range matches with .44 Mag. revolvers, and after hunting with them almost exclusively for about a decade ending in the early 90's, I probably don't need too much instruction on exterior ballistics or trajectory of the caliber. Yes, whether one uses a screwdriver or front sight bars, good shooters can do excellent work with the .44 Mag. on live and inanimate targets at long range, by adjusting their sights or their sight picture.
But when a poster believes there's only 2" of drop @ 100 yds., using a .44 Mag., he's mistaken. Period. Holding a sight picture with that belief will likely result in a missed, or wounded, game animal.
On the other hand, will an extra 300 fps from a .454 significantly flatten the trajectory ? No. But it will add about another 25 yds. in range before that trajectory again becomes an issue to be dealt with.
Now, will the difference between a .44@ 1300 vs a .460 @ 2300 mean a flatter  trajectory ? Hell, Yes !
Do I want a .460 ? Nope, because I'm most happy stalking to within a hundred yards or so , with a .44, .454. .475 L or .500 WE revolver, sized to whatever I'm hunting. It sounds like we agree .
Willy, although I poked a little fun at that 2" drop, I believe that your original post was absolutely right on target. To hunt deer and hogs and similar size game in Ohio or anywhere in the East, a .44 Mag is absolutely all you need, and to my mind at least, is perfect for the job.. A hole through the heart / lung area that shuts off the oxygen to the brain means a dead animal. A broken leg is a broken leg, regardless of what  bullet broke it. None of us want to put that bullet in the wrong place, even if it's from a .460, a .500 or whatever.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 11:57:27 PM »
cant even argue with this post! Well said. Only arguement i can make and its probably not an argument with you is that to get that 2000 fps level out of the smith you have to resort to using a stupid bullet. Its no differnt the savage loading 87s in the 250 when it came out to get there advertised 3000 fps. Its nothing but an advertising ploy to suck in inexperienced handgunners that dont understand what it takes to make a good handgun load. A guy could load 45acp 185 jhps in a 454 too and probably get 2000 fps but it sure wouldnt make it a good 200 yard gun on live animals.
Lloyd,
Having spent more than 20 years successfully competing in IHMSA and NRA long range matches with .44 Mag. revolvers, and after hunting with them almost exclusively for about a decade ending in the early 90's, I probably don't need too much instruction on exterior ballistics or trajectory of the caliber. Yes, whether one uses a screwdriver or front sight bars, good shooters can do excellent work with the .44 Mag. on live and inanimate targets at long range, by adjusting their sights or their sight picture.
But when a poster believes there's only 2" of drop @ 100 yds., using a .44 Mag., he's mistaken. Period. Holding a sight picture with that belief will likely result in a missed, or wounded, game animal.
On the other hand, will an extra 300 fps from a .454 significantly flatten the trajectory ? No. But it will add about another 25 yds. in range before that trajectory again becomes an issue to be dealt with.
Now, will the difference between a .44@ 1300 vs a .460 @ 2300 mean a flatter  trajectory ? Hell, Yes !
Do I want a .460 ? Nope, because I'm most happy stalking to within a hundred yards or so , with a .44, .454. .475 L or .500 WE revolver, sized to whatever I'm hunting. It sounds like we agree .
Willy, although I poked a little fun at that 2" drop, I believe that your original post was absolutely right on target. To hunt deer and hogs and similar size game in Ohio or anywhere in the East, a .44 Mag is absolutely all you need, and to my mind at least, is perfect for the job.. A hole through the heart / lung area that shuts off the oxygen to the brain means a dead animal. A broken leg is a broken leg, regardless of what  bullet broke it. None of us want to put that bullet in the wrong place, even if it's from a .460, a .500 or whatever.
blue lives matter

Offline Ken ONeill

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2007, 01:15:52 AM »
Absolutely agree.

Offline m-g Willy

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2007, 06:07:34 AM »
If someone has a .44 Magnum that can be sighted in to be dead on at 50 yards and drop " only 2" at most" at 100 yards, I want to buy that gun. The several dozen I've owned have all been typically sighted in to be between dead on  and 3/4 " high at 25 yds, resulting in being 1 to 2 " high at 50, dead on again at 75 and 6 to 8" low at 100. I must not be jerking the trigger properly, and require additional training from someone.


What load are you using?
It must be your grip making your bullets drop so much at 100 yds ::) (Just kidding)
I was WRONG :o about the 2" drop
I was just guessing at the drop from my shooting exp.
I'm not that good a shot with open sights to really tell exactly what the drop is.
So I looked it up in the book
The book says it drops 3.5" at 100 when sighted in at 50.( 44 -240gr. jhp at 1500fps.)
Sorry about the mistake


Willy


Offline m-g Willy

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2007, 06:31:18 AM »
[quote author=Lloyd Smale  If you personaly cant handle them fine but there are people who handle them just fine thankyou. Why is it guys cant stand something that intiminates them and rather then educateing themselves bad mouth it and the people that use it. Personaly i dont care what guns other people use or recomend i go out and find out for myself what works and use it and surely wouldnt badmouth anyone for choosing something differnt. I dont care if you squirell hunt with a 458 mag or deer hunt with a 2520. If you feel comfortable and can shoot it well enough both will work in either situation. Sorry if i got off topic a little but i get sick and tired of guys that are afraid of these big bores trying to tell me that im nuts using them when most have never even fired a round let alone killed something with one.
[/quote]


Never said I couldn't handle them.
I shot better than 2000 full house rounds through a buddies  454Super Redhawk. At paper and plinking, never killed anything with it.(Never shot a 500 or the 460 yet)
I also am one of those that thinks bigger is better when it comes to guns(My first deer rifle for PA hunting was a 300 winchester mag.)
The reason being is that it had the power and range better than any other 30 cal. at the time (except for the Weatherby mags)
When I would get a shot at a deer I would drop him with that 300!
Funny thing was, is that my old man would always get his deer to using his puny 30/06
And my uncles managed to KILL A DEER WITH THE LIL 30/30. every year.
By the way the longest shot in PA I ever took was about 70 yards.
I think a 30/30 would have filled the bill for any of these shots. So why use a 300?

The reason I  asked the question wasn't to try to put anyone down but to find out other peoples exp with them.
I know what the paper ballistics are for them ,but I wanted to hear from those that used them on somthing more than paper.


Willy

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2007, 06:49:05 AM »
Every bullet load combo has a useful range , the faster you start a bullet the faster it slows down , so if yo start the same bullet in the same gun 3 times , say a 250 gr. 45 in a 45 colt case to standard level , the same to ruger levels and a 454 level at some point down range the slower bullet passes the others in retained energy !
the 300 WM is Passed by the puny 30-06 just past 500 or so yards , the 300 gets there faster but sheads energy to do so !
the reality is most game is taken long before the lower speed rounds could come close to catching up ! i couldn't say the 454 kills better at 100 yds than the 44 but it takes alot of guess work out of aimimg out to 100 yds !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Chris Potts

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2007, 09:38:08 AM »
If you take two identical bullets (same weight and same BC) and fire them at two different velocities the faster bullet will never be slower at any distance.  Once the faster bullets slows down to the same velocity as the slower bullet at a given distance (500 yrds. in the 30-06 v. 300 wsm example), they will decelerate at exactly the same rate from that point on.

This is the reason that I am not a big fan of larger case to increase the velocity over rounds like the 30-06.  I think that the real advantage of larger cases is the ability to shoot heavier bullets with higher BC.


Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2007, 10:15:17 AM »
thank you ! the point was that the use of heavy kicking rounds for extream range does less  to help than it would seem ! also when shooting IMHSA many went with the heavy kickers only to return to the 44mag. !
as far as the two bullets proceeding at the exact same speed maybe : the faster bullet is losing speed at a faster rate due to the larger amount of air it had been pushing in front over comming the resistance , how long would it take to change as the bullet slows ? i see your thought but not sure it is that simple !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2007, 10:17:51 AM »
Great post Lloyd Smale!

"Contrary to what some people think we all dont shoot them to impress you or anyone esle. 99 percent of my shooting is alone at my private range."

Amen, I enjoy shooting with family and friends but 99% of the time it's just me.

I've got a 454 Casull and I made my longest revolver shot on a big whitetail doe with it. Conditions were perfect, I had a solid rest and the deer was hit perfectly behind the shoulder, from 115 yards away. I personally would not have attempted this shot with my 44 magnum.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot


Well put, I have shot the 44 Mag for 25 years. Now I only shoot my 460 Mag or 500 Mag, just my preference. Not trying to impress anyone. I hunt alone and frankly care less about others opinions of why I shoot big bore handguns.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2007, 10:33:47 AM »
I agree I cant see how a bullet started slower would end up faster.
If you take two identical bullets (same weight and same BC) and fire them at two different velocities the faster bullet will never be slower at any distance.  Once the faster bullets slows down to the same velocity as the slower bullet at a given distance (500 yrds. in the 30-06 v. 300 wsm example), they will decelerate at exactly the same rate from that point on.

This is the reason that I am not a big fan of larger case to increase the velocity over rounds like the 30-06.  I think that the real advantage of larger cases is the ability to shoot heavier bullets with higher BC.


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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2007, 10:48:40 AM »
I believe it would depend on the rate it was sheading energy , the faster bullet was using more energy to go faster and was doing so at a greater rate than the slower bullet . At the moment they are at the same speed would the faster bullet have the exact same energy as the slower round left ? I feel they most likly would have different levels left and slow at different rates , they have traveled different paths and over come resistance at different speeds thus far i see the point they travel at one speed as a point on their flight not where they duplicate each other !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline m-g Willy

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Re: 500s&w-460-454?
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2007, 11:18:19 AM »
Well out of all the posts on this thread I only got one answer to my question!
I've used 44mag and heavy loaded 45colt for deer and pig hunting for more than 30 years and have a fair idea what a 44 cast or jhp will do on a deer from about any angle with either of these guns.
I just wanted to know from someone with a fair amount of hunting exp. with the 44 mag. if the bigger guns made much of a differance in wounds and killing power from thier exp.in the hunting field (not paper ballistics.)
I guess not to many people have much exp. shooting game with the cannons .



Willy