1911 vs predators

[demented]

Try some good 185 gr JHP's loaded to Plus P velocity. You'll see a BIG improvement over most 230 JHP's, let alone FMJ's.  BTW: XTP bullets will usually fail to expand at .45 velocity.  I've found Plus P 124gr 9mm's to be vastly superior to .45 fmj's, also.

[Jim n Iowa]

I like my 1911 Series 70, Its been tricked out and operates like a dream. It is the go to gun at home. I carry a 44 sp snubby in the truck. Out in the field I carry a cut down SBH 44 with 240 gr swc in 44sp. I think the 45 acp loaded with hard lead, which is what I load it with in the winter would be fine in the hunting field. On the 22's, I once dated a nurse who worked ER, She said that people shot with 22rim fire come in get treated released, and die the next day, not much for stopping power, but!!

[S.B.]

I find this comical that someone would think that a 22lr is more deadly than a 45acp of ANY bullet configuration on rodents. Humans, or hummingbirds for that matter.

More than DOUBLE the caliber size, coming out of the barrel, than the 22lr is EVER going to get AFTER impact, and almost 6 times heavier (depending on the bullet weight of either).

The US government brought out of mothballs the Colt single action Army in 45 Long Colt, to replace the 38s they had been issued in the Boar Wars, because of the Legendary Stopping Power of the 45 caliber. The U.S. Military has learned it's lesson RECENTLY, and is bringing BACK, the 45 acp as it is a RELIABLE MAN STOPPER, and the 9mm THANKFULLY is being fazed out as a dismal failure.

A 44mag required to stop those ground hogs. Were they possibly wearing ballistic vests?

Sounds like a marksmanship issue to me.

I agree@

[Dee]

I like my 1911 Series 70, Its been tricked out and operates like a dream. It is the go to gun at home. I carry a 44 sp snubby in the truck. Out in the field I carry a cut down SBH 44 with 240 gr swc in 44sp. I think the 45 acp loaded with hard lead, which is what I load it with in the winter would be fine in the hunting field. On the 22's, I once dated a nurse who worked ER, She said that people shot with 22rim fire come in get treated released, and die the next day, not much for stopping power, but!!

Your nurse friend knew what she was talking about. I, before retirement worked quite a few shootings involving 22lr firearms, from pistols and revolvers to rifles. Your nurse friend had seen that the 22lr has the power to punch thru say the rib cage, but does not have the energy to get out, so it just bounces around in there cutting a vein here, nicking an artery there. Same way with a head shot. Just kinda runs around in that watery mess, until it runs out of steam. Not quick, but just as deadly.
The trick to stopping power is something that is capable, of breaking bone structure. If the game can't stand up, it isn't going anywhere, regardless of desire. Now on all but the biggest of rodents the 22lr should be more than enough, but to say the 45 acp isn't? I'd say, time to go back to the range, and more practice.

[B2crawler]

This is old thread but oh well.
 
When I was in HS I lived out in the desert near Death Valley.  Anyways we did A LOT of shooting and fourwheeling as that was all there was to do.(unless you wanted to hang with the drinking and drug crowd)   Anyways one night there's four of us in my friends Toyota out wheeling on some old dirt roads.  Two in the front and me and another friend in the back.  At one point a jack rabbit just keeps darting back and forth across the road in the head lights.  Friend stops the truck and the rabbit just sits in the middle of the road in the light.  I pulled my 45 out and took one shot over the top of the cab.  Rabbit starts flopping around like mad.  My friend who was driving wasn't a hunter just a shooter and didn't like the sight of the rabbit giving his last gasp.  Begged me to shoot it again.  I wasn't about to shoot another Premium JHP on that old rabbit.  Not with my limited budget.
  This was all in a few seconds and about this time the rabbit is lying still.  We of course had to inspect the dead rabbit.  Just looking at it the way it was laying you couldn't see any real damage, but when I picked it up the other side of the rabbit was a mangled mess of fur and guts.  A second shot wasn't needed for sure.  My friend that wasn't a hunter actually was sickened by the site.
I can't remember exactly what the premium ammo was all this time later.  It was probably either the Eldorado Star Fire or Golden Sabers.  I'm amazed the bullets opened up like they did on such little tissue.  They did the trick better than any 22 I've ever seen.  Unless it was a 223 maybe.

[yooper77]

I shoot the 45 ACP and my mild handloads of 200 grain SWC bullets completely flattens small up to coyote sized animals anywhere its hit.

They only run off if they are missed completely.

yooper77

[superdown]

myronman why did you shoot your rott ?

[myronman3]

she growled at my then two year old son when he walked by her.  first and LAST time that ever happened.     she was a great dog for 8 years, and maybe my all time favorite dog ever.   she was my "pookie".   but, he is my SON.   when you choose to have an animal of that nature, you take on certain responsiblities with them.   too many owners arent responsible enough to put their family and neighbors above their pets.

[superdown]

Well that's unfotunate to have take that kind action with a long term pet . I can't say i would have done any different . But we all know the reputations that rotts and bulldogs have regarding children .

[Tallwalker]

If you are trying to keep the price down, I would keep my eye open for a old Ruger Security Six .357. They usually shoot quite well, are pretty well made, and can be had at reasonable prices. I was shooting one of mine today.

[rigger1]

Assuming good marksmanship and proper ammo, what's the useful range of a 1911 against predators such as coyote, wild dogs, skunks, raccoons, etc?

The 1911 was designed for killing and incapacitating people.
Because of the small nature of varmints many do not have
the cross-sectional density to allow expansion of the .45ACP.

I consider it good sportsmanship to use the best weapon to
try to assure a quick death and only experiment on phone books.

[SHOOTALL]

A .45 inch hole in most small critters would mean certian and swift death ! The .556 (.223 REM) was developed for the same reason and it makes a fine predator round .

[Ak.Hiker]

Hornady makes a 230 grain FMJ flat point for the 45 ACP. Both Double Tap and Buffalo Bore load this one in their 45 ACP lines. Both of these companies are running it at 950+. It would be a good bullet for the hand loader as well.

[Skip_B]

I've got some handloads that I guarantee a groundhog won't walk away from.

Take a look!


Those are 240gr H&G #502 loaded over a healthy charge of SR4756 for around 1100fps from a 5" barrel.

They shoot accurately from my Taurus PT1911 and my M625JM.

If you can hit them with it, their gonners!

[Mikey]

A 240 gn cast slug at 1100'/sec from a 45acp sounds way over loaded for the auto pistol.  I haven't yet heard of any other 45 acp 240 or even 230 gn slug, cast or jacketed, that has attained those velocities.  Most top off at around 960 or so.  Are you sure you have that velocity correct???

Those are nice looking loads though and the slug reminds me of the old Lyman 452423 bullet at 230 gns, they both have a nice flat metplat and even at mil-spec ball velocities they would be effective.  They also look to have been loaded for a revolver as many of us who load cast swc slugs for the semi-auto have to crimp over the front edge of the leading band to get proper chambering.  The Hensley and Gibbs slug looks like an interesting bullet though.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[S.B.]

Also, does this load feed in  and with an unmodified 1911 barrel? Bullet ogive looks to be very sharp for a 1911 feed ramp. I think I'd stick to the H&G #68 SWC and reduce the velocity to around 800? Or, is this load for a 1917 S&W or Colt? In your photos, the front driving band looks as if it might interfere with head spacing?
Steve

[myronman3]

i have bullets that look just like that loaded for my 45.  they are 255 gr slugs.  i used load data for 260 grain copper bullets.  i have not chronographed them, but they should be 900-1000 fps.   they feed flawlessly so far, and hit with authority.

[SharonAnne]

Myron, if I looked out my door and saw that face I would open fire on general principles!

[SharonAnne]

BTW, I think that a 250gr bullet at 1100fps would blow out the case head of a .45acp.

[myronman3]

lol.   i was with the kids trick or treating.  my wife liked that picture over the other one i had posted.  seen the movie yet?  it was incredible.
here is the picture i used to have up.....would ya still shoot on sight?  lol
<img src="https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/myronman3/blackhawk007.jpg" alt="image >

[Skip_B]

Long ago when guns and ammo were real, here is the data they used for them.
I used this same data for loading in 45ACP cases with no head separation.


Do what you want, make sure you feel safe. This works for me.

Yes, I have to tweak the OAL when I shoot these in the PT1911, not if I shoot them in the M625JM.

[Skip_B]

Now, the ones on the right are in 45AR cases BUT I know a fellow that shoots them out of 45ACP brass.

The one on the far right is a 270gr Ohaus bullet. If I remember right he says he gets 1000fps out of a 5" M625 but I can't remember for sure.


I am not espousing this or any other data. I have used it though with no ill affects to the firearms I own. I am not recommending anything to you. (Is this enough "legalese" to keep me covered?)

[Skip_B]

and hit with authority.

They do make the bowling pins move around a bit!

[myronman3]

icarry....impressive.   the 255 grain kieths i loaded for mine i really like.  i have never dispatched an animal with it YET, but someday.  meanwhile, like you said, they sure clean  a bowling pin off the table!

[SharonAnne]

the 45 auto rim data is OLD. It is before pressure transducers. NO industry provider would advocate such loads today.  a Herco load for a 250gr bullet at 1250fps?!?! It is not clear but it looks like a Unique load at 1330fps, from a 45 auto rim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I looked on line through several web pages and the only load that made 1330 with a 230gr bullet was the 460 Rowland. NO 45 acp went over 1000 with a 230. The load data reproduced shows DANGEROUS  loads. Do not use.

[Skip_B]

How long ago were pressure transducers used for pressure data?


I can show you a manual that is older than this, from the same publisher, that has pressure data in it!

[Skip_B]

Or how about this information from Elmer Keith?




There are folks that have used this data in the same firearm for years without incident.


There are other folks that have used data lower than this and blown their firearms to smithereens!


I'm not telling you what to use, I'm just stating what I use. Don't do something YOU deem to be unsafe.


p.s. That Herco load is for a 200gr JSP not a 230gr. Sorry about the picture quality!

[torpedoman]

It is amazing on two legged predators, never really considered it as a coyote gun.

[SharonAnne]

the pressure data in old manuals is from either a copper or lead crusher. It was found that the crusher method of measuring pressure missed the highest pressure spikes because they are too slow to catch the highest pressures that can and did/do blow up guns. I do not know when SAAMI switched from copper/lead crusher to pressure transducer data.

[Skip_B]

the pressure data in old manuals is from either a copper or lead crusher. It was found that the crusher method of measuring pressure missed the highest pressure spikes because they are too slow to catch the highest pressures that can and did/do blow up guns. I do not know when SAAMI switched from copper/lead crusher to pressure transducer data.

Before we "knew" better, CUP was just fine. Guns weren't blown up because handloaders followed standards, were they? Doesn't say much for those standard generating associations, does it?

PSI was used in the manual preceding the one posted out of. It was published in 1966. The picture below shows data from the 38spl, in PSI and there is a picture on page 67 of a pressure curve plot. In the manual published from the same publisher in 1964 they speak of pressure in PSI and are using copper crushers. In the manual that is pictured above on page 83 there is a picture of the electronic equipment used in their laboratory.

I am having problems finding the picture from their publication that shows an actual test firearm with the "wires" coming out from the receiver, but there is one.


I have given you several examples, and pictures Sharon to back up what I have said. You stated that there were blown up guns. Do you have any proof of that?

Honestly, I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I'm just stating facts about the loads I use. There have been handloaders that have used some of these loads for decades with no ill affects. I have loaded and fired these in my firearms, mostly a M625JM with surprising accuracy and authority. I cast my own bullets and they are in the area of 12-15BHN, much softer than that of normal cast bullets.

I have been accused of "reading tea leaves" when discussing primer formation/deformation and case extraction but honestly, I have had none of these issues with these loads. In times past that was all the handloader had to go by.

These manuals are much spoken against but there were THE standard when they were first published.

FWIW