1911 vs predators

[azmark]

Assuming good marksmanship and proper ammo, what's the useful range of a 1911 against predators such as coyote, wild dogs, skunks, raccoons, etc?

[luv2shoot]

just as far  as you can hit it

[Mikey]

Yep, that's right.

[azmark]

What kind of bullet design/size would you recommend for that particular use?  How about handload recipes for anti-coyote duty?

[Questor]

It's a very weak cartridge. If you want to stop the animals quickly, use something with more velocity, like one of the magnums. I have used it on woodchucks, but gave up because the old wound-o-matic can drill right through the vitals and they just run away.  If you do use one, keep the ranges short, like under 50 yards, and use fast, light, reliable expanding bullets, like the 185 grain Hornady XTPs.  That may improve things a bit. I've only used 200 grain cast bullets.

[myronman3]

i dont know.  i used mine to drive off a bear saturday evening.  the day before we were doing penetration tests and my 230 hardcast were punching clean through steel culverts, both sides.   which bolstered my confidence in the 45.  it also dropped my rott clean as a whistle @ 15 yards.

[Questor]

I've shot quite a few large rodents (groundhogs and porcupine) with it, and quit because I thought it was inhumane. The results were just so poor. I get better field performance with 22LR on animals like that. My results are consistent with the results of those who have used calibers like the nearly identical 450 Webley.

For penetration, I shot 10" discarded creosoted utility pole. The 200 grain 45s bounced off. The 44 magnum 300 grainer penetrated completely through.

Results like this convinced me that it's a close quarters defense gun in a pinch. I also lost faith in handguns as reliable defensive weapons.

[Questor]

Just to give some specific examples, we had an infestation of ground hogs at the shooting range a few years ago and they were doing damage to some of the buildings, like undermining the foundation of the shack at the rifle range. I hunted them with the 45 and got poor results. I switched to 44 magnum and they dropped in their tracks every time. In both cases bullets were hard cast commercial bullets. The 45s were going about 800fps, the 44s were going about 1250fps. I've shot ground hogs in our garden with 22LR hollow points and they always died faster than a similar shot with the 45.

[Questor]

One final note, my nickname for the 1911 is "the target pistol" because that's the only thing I think it's any good for.

[Dee]

I find this comical that someone would think that a 22lr is more deadly than a 45acp of ANY bullet configuration on rodents. Humans, or hummingbirds for that matter.

More than DOUBLE the caliber size, coming out of the barrel, than the 22lr is EVER going to get AFTER impact, and almost 6 times heavier (depending on the bullet weight of either).

The US government brought out of mothballs the Colt single action Army in 45 Long Colt, to replace the 38s they had been issued in the Boar Wars, because of the Legendary Stopping Power of the 45 caliber. The U.S. Military has learned it's lesson RECENTLY, and is bringing BACK, the 45 acp as it is a RELIABLE MAN STOPPER, and the 9mm THANKFULLY is being fazed out as a dismal failure.

A 44mag required to stop those ground hogs. Were they possibly wearing ballistic vests?

Sounds like a marksmanship issue to me.

[moxgrove]

What kind of groundhogs were you shooting? I've shot armadillos, woodchucks muskrats and even bunnies with both 22's and 44 specials. the big heavy bullets rip a tunnel right through them. Yes 22's can be explosive, but this is definitely the first time I've heard anyone say a 45 is insufficient for small game.  I have taken Texas brain shots on 2 coyotes with a 44 special with complete exit. The skulls burst apart after penetrating the full length of the critters. You can't tell me that a 44 special is an a whole different league from a 45 acp. Only one exited the had, the other exited the chest. shooting uphill at about 25 yards.

[Questor]

I'm just reporting actual field results.

If putting a bullets dead center through the rib cage for all shots is not generally regarded a marksmanship problem.  With the 45s not a single animal reacted as if it had been hit. They just ran away, and unless I was able to put a quick follow up shot into the head or major joints, I never recovered them.  Realistically, they were probably dead within a couple of minutes.

With the 22, they always reacted violently and never went far. With the 44, they always dropped on the spot.

[SHOOTALL]

If ya knew it took head shots , why didn't ya shoot the head first ? would have been easier than shooting one in the head running !

[Questor]

For the same reason that neither I nor almost anyone else takes head shots at game: it's unreliable and can lead to horrible wounds that result iin a lingering death. Even in a small animal. 

It's interesting that what we learn in practice often contradicts fable.  That's why I brought up this little story. I've told it to people who never shot anything but paper or cans with a 45 and they gave me the same reaction of disbelief.

[SHOOTALL]

To be honest i believe ya and if by chance you were using ball ammo i would say you got what was to be expected !
saw a cat shot with a 44mag. sil bullet ( a solid affair for knocking down steel targets ) that just sat there and looked at us after a time it turned to run and fell dead ! so if you didn't hit a vital spot your bullet would just zip thru. as small game offer very little resistance to big heavy bullets ! hollow point or solid !
now the head shot , you may wish to not take one but many do with good result ! the idea that game chest shot poorly is better than a botched head shot is a fallacy as a poor shot anywhere can inflict a painful wound that can cause a painful death !
any hunter no matter the equipment they use and no matter the hours of practice they accumulate must be willing to face the fact they inflict pain and death to the animals they hunt and shoot ! You should try to minimize it as much as possible but the reality is it hurts to get shot ! that said critters are food , hear to sustain us ! giving them human feelings and trying to justify how we kill and consume them just makes little sense to me . the deer and the cow both are here to feed us many cows are struck in the head with an axe or bolt gun do the deer deserve more consideration because when animals were domesticated they were smaller than cows and less cost affective to keep ?

[Mikey]

fellas:  please note that azmark included 'proper bullets' in his question.  I have had one shot successes and one shot failures with the 45 on dog size critters.  Ball ammo is not the ticket for field use in my opinion - it will penetrate because of its solid round nose configuration and construction - it will also penetrate right on through soft tissue and leave only a small wound channel. 

To answer azmark's question I think a light weight fast moving hollow-point or a slow flat nosed chunk of semiwadcutter would be preferred.  The former might include 165-185 gn hps at about 1000'/sec or better, the later would include any of the cast availabilities of 225-255 at 800'/sec or so.  However, it doesn't matter what it is, if the hit is in soft tissue, smaller critters may not react immediately.  Bulllet placement is important - if you hit a major bone structure and bust it all up the critter often drops on the spot with massive internal damage resultant.  A shot through the heart/lungs often has the same effect, sometimes not. 

I've had feral dogs on me so fast the just muzzle blast took tremendous and instantaneous damage.  I have also had dead on knockdown shots where they picked themselves up and started to run away and then either go down again or take off for a bit.  It really depends on where you hit them.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[azmark]

Lots of good banter.  I like it.  No better way to get educated about a subject.  I have to admit that I'm surprised at how many people don't like the .45 ACP.  I'm deciding on a handgun that would be carried while I tend animals and would be used for home defense.  Because of budget reasons, my choice is limited.  My shotgun is just not carry-friendly.  My price limit does include a Taurus .357 mag, but I'm seeing too many complaints about their quality lately.  People have suggested a used S&W .357, but they're still not what I would consider inexpensive.  Old K frame Smiths are priced all right, but they're known to loosen up after having shot a lot of magnum rounds.  .44 mag revolvers just plain cost too much. 

I can easily find a decent used S&W .38 special and load smaller bullets at +P velocities.  Tell me what you would want for the job:  .45 ACP or .38 Special +P?

[Questor]

Azmark:

I think the 357 would be an excellent choice for this application. Lighter frame than the 44 magnums, easier to carry, and lots of power. Great bullets are available. Just make sure it has good adjustable sights and you're in business. Trajectory is flat enough for shooting out to 100 yards. It is what I would use for this application. Just avoid the slower 38 special ammo for this. It has the same problems as the 45-- puts a hole in them, but doesn't stop them quickly.

Another great thing about the revolvers is that they are so much nicer to carry afield. I find them more shooter friendly than autos for field use. Lots cheaper too. There's really no down side to using a 357 revolver.

Try the 110 grain Hornady XTP bullets or something similar that's designed for expansion. 125s might be better.  Too light for deer, but will be fine with coyote sized critters.

[Questor]

38 special +p might be OK, it would have the advantage of being inexpensive to buy a gun for. You should be able to get a good used 38 S&W for about $350. Problem is velocity with the light bullets is about 1000fps, which is about the same as the light bullets for 45acp. It would be better than the 800fps standard loads, but still wouldn't be my choice. Go with the 357. It may cost a bit more, but is a no-compromises solution to the question at hand.  The used gun market for 357s is very good.

[SHOOTALL]

if the critters are small , 357 and shoot 38+P , if they are big , well nothing beats cubic inches and the 45 has them in spades . Its anti American to hate the 45ACP ! Mom , apple pie , chev. and 45 ACP !

[crabo]

One thing no one is talking about is the ear splitting report of a .357 mag.  Those guns hurt your ears to shoot them unprotected.  The .45 acp doesn't hurt you as much.  I also am having trouble believing that a good solid hit from a 200 grain swc, or a 185 grain jhp isn't adequate to stop predators. 

I shot a large coyote with a 240 grain, 44 mag jhp.  It knocked him down, but he got up and ran off as I walked toward him.(I was patting myself on the back for such a great shot)  There was a large spot of blood where he had lain on the ground. I later found him and killed him in a pasture about 1/4 of a mile away.  The autotopsy revealed I hit him low in the front shoulder.  Shoot placement wasn't quite good enough.  He ran along way on 3 legs.

I guess the .44 mag isn't enough gun either for predators.

[Questor]

I agree with the earsplitting report problem. My own experience is that if it's centerfire, I use ear protection of some kind. I tried using light target loads in my 38 special for a while for field carry and varmint shooting. Quit doing it because the gun was too loud. I went back to using the 22, which is much more tolerable for noise and just as effective as the 38 or 45 for woodchuck sized critters.

The magnums are louder than the 38s and 45s, but they're all too loud for my tastes. When I did my woodchuck hunt, I used good quality earmuffs.

[44 Man]

Bullet selection!  I had a friend who loaded up some .44 spl with WFN cast bullets and gave me some to try.  Although he only loaded them to factory velocitys (750 fps), those wide, flat nose bullets would just hammer anything they hit!  (with proper placement)  I'm going to carry my 1911 for a sidearm this year while deer hunting.  I have some very nice WFN 230gr cast bullets loaded up at 875 fps and if given an opportunity, I would not hesitate to use it on a deer.  I have a peace officer friend who regularly has to put down deer who have been injured in a car/deer accident.  He says the .45 is completely dependable with one, well placed shot.  (unlike the 9mm they used to carry that often took 4 shots!)  I have confidence in these bullets, and as they say; a picture is worth a 1000 words!  44 Man.

[Mikey]

44 Man:  Are the bullets you show loaded into 45 cases in your last post commercially available?  Mikey.

[Dee]

44 Man:  Are the bullets you show loaded into 45 cases in your last post commercially available?  Mikey.

Mikey, winchester loads a trunkated 200 grain flat nose that I carry. It was by the one of Cooper's favorite defense loads, and is mine also.

[44 Man]

Those are bullets that Lloyd Smale cast and I got them from him.  I don't remember who the mold was from.  They are gas check bullets which you don't need for .45 acp, but they work very well.  They also feed well, but I did have to play with the OAL just a little.  As I remember, I had to seat them as deep as I could; right on the edge of the ogive.  Any deeper and I'd loose the taper crimp.  They feed in all three of my 1911s.  I am hording what I have left and would love some more.  I'd whine to Lloyd, but I don't believe he has that mold anymore.  I may have to break down and buy my own.  44 Man.

[Lloyd Smale]

that bullet is a 210 lfngc from veral at lbt. I dont have it anymore but he still makes the mold.

[Mikey]

Thanks guys. 

[a45gunslinger]

a 1911 chambered in .223. Hmmmm I'd buy it 

[SHOOTALL]

22 jet , might still be able to get hand around grip !