Author Topic: Questions on African Hunting (Read 4289 times)

Dixie Dude · « **on:** September 25, 2007, 02:47:41 AM »

1. How many rifles can you bring for plains game?
2. Which of these would be the best?
.30-06 Mauser action, 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen Mauser action, .300 Win Mag Remington 700 BDL, .45-70 Marlin, .308 Ruger 77

Still about 3 years off, but trying to feed my .401(k)

I have the above rifles, except the .35 Whelen, which I intend to purchase soon.

3. Do I need a .375 HH if I do not intend to hunt dangerous game?

JJHACK · « **Reply #1 on:** September 25, 2007, 04:20:42 AM »

Three years where Africa is concerned is a heck of a long time. Who know what could change.

Some base line suggestions; pick a country and habitat which will aid in the decision of cartridge, and amount of rifles. Most countries allow two rifles. If you're only shooting PG I see no need to bring 2 guns. The natural wild bush of the Northern Province of RSA will put the distances in the 70-200 yard range. Namibia will be much further on Average. The Mountain Areas of RSA and the Eastern Cape have some specific wild species but most folks going for general bag of game would not choose this area due to the limited selection of natural game. The habitat is wide open and would likely require longer shots as well. Botswana and Zimbabwe are the same as the north of RSA, natural thick thorn bush with shots in the 70-200 yard range. Probably not much else to consider for plains game only. Ammo is easy to find, and with good bullets and shot placement your in business.

The majority of my hunters bring a 300 mag of some sort. More then all other cartridges combined. No you do not need a 375HH for plains game. I would pick the 30/06 or the 300 mag if it were my hunt

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2007, 06:50:42 AM »

My first choice was RSA. Zimbabwe is too political, and I think for the most game in one trip would be RSA. I knew the .30-06 would be one. I've been reading up on the .35 Whelen, and I like what I have read about it so far and have a chance to buy one from an older guy, commercial Mauser action. My .300 WM is a Remington.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2007, 12:10:02 AM »

I say, bring two guns even if you don't need to. Then you'll have a spare if one breaks.

Last time I went, I took a 375 H&H Magnum rifle & a 357 Herrett handgun. For my trip next year, guess what, I'm taking a 375 H&H Magnum. It's certainly not needed for plains game but mine is quite accurate, recoil isn't too bad and it will do everything. My second gun will be a 500 S&W Magnum handgun just to make sure things aren't too boring.

JJHACK · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2007, 05:12:33 AM »

Disclaimer!!! I'm not posting this as it relates to the people in this thread.

I find it endlessly entertaining that people on the internet will debate Winchester VS Remington, Leupold VS Ziess, etc etc. everyone of these guys bicker and debate and argue endlessly over what is best and how the other choice is worthless.

Then they want to bring two guns in case something breaks.

Where is the confidence in the choice after all the raving about how it's never failed, always fed and ejected, the scope never fogged, gone out of focus, and they beat the crap out of their equipment every year with heavy hunting. Yet they say in the next breath

Better bring two in case something happens to one of them!

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** September 26, 2007, 05:39:44 AM »

I think they likely look at it like insurance Jim, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Sorta like those folks who scope their rifles but insist on having iron sights as well. My scoped guns don't have iron sights. I made the decision on what sighting equipment I wanted to use when I put the scope on it.

But Africa is a LOOONG way from home and a big expense to most working stiffs going there and I can understand wanting a rifle of their own to use even should something happen anywhere along the way that takes out the primary.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #6 on:** September 26, 2007, 05:54:27 AM »

I was thinking more in terms of bringing two rifles in two different cases, in case one is "lost" in transport. I like scoped guns, but one slip and I fell, and another vehicle accident in transit to hunting, scopes were off. When I got around to checking the rifles, the accuracy was way off. The iron sights on one was still right on. The other one didn't have iron sights, but I happened to have a back up rifle on that particular trip. I was just wondering which two would be the best for plains game. I was going to start using them here in the states for hunting regularly to be more comfortable. I think I have too many rifles, and I am more comfortable with some than others. For instance, my Ruger 77 in .308 with a synthetic "skeletonized stock kicks harder than my .300 WM in Remington 700 BDL with wood stock, raised cheek rest and rubber recoil pad. The Ruger is very light and easy to carry around all day though.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #7 on:** September 26, 2007, 06:35:17 AM »

I can understand what Bill and Dixie Dude are saying. I few years back I took a very hard fall out in the woods. As a result I damage the scope. Twenty years before I was hunting on a steep, icy slope and fell backwards. A check of my rifle showed that I had damaged the top turret of my Bushnell scope. Again a backup rifle was used the reminder of the season.

I must give Bushnell customer service a plug. They fixed the scope at no cost to me.

While that is only two incidents in over fifty years of hunting, I am aware of family and hunting partners taking hard falls out hunting on a yearly bases. Better to be prepared then without.

For those who want to us this as ammunition in their justification to by another rifle, please do.

JJHACK · « **Reply #8 on:** September 26, 2007, 10:51:52 AM »

I'm not suggesting that bringing two is wrong, just the paradox that some folks will argue so much about dependability and in the next breath need two guns. That's just hilarious to me!

As far as packing one per case and then bringing two cases...........well that will be a hella big expense. That third bag would be quite a bit more money unless flying first class. But then that ticket is over 10k so when you can afford 10k for airfare then money is not likely an issue for much of your life's decisions!

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2007, 11:33:51 AM »

Right off the top of my head I can recall only three incidents where I dropped a gun while hunting. The first was a Weatherby MKXXII with a Weatherby branded scope on it. I was walking along a creek and when I started to cross my foot slipped on a moss covered rock and down I went. The gun landed on a rock and the scope made first contact. I expected the worst but it didn't need repair or even to be resighted as I went on to kill several squirrels with it that day.

The next was a TC muzzle loader which fell from perhaps 20' in the air from a treestand in a moment of carelessness on my part. It busted the stock beyond use and was amazingly replaced by TC at no cost to me in spite of my negligence being the cause of the break. That one sent me home and had it happened in Africa or anywhere far from home would have put me out of business.

The last and most recent tho many years ago was a S&W 629 Classic DX 8-3/8" with a Bushnell Trophy 2-6 scope mounted. It came out of my shoulder hoslter and fell onto the wood floor of my stand as I was preparing to climb down for the day. The gun again fell right on the scope and it was a very heavy revolver with that long full underlug barrel. When I got home and checked it on my range it was still dead on and no damage of any kind was done.

So I'm of the opinion modern guns and scopes are pretty tough customers and am not particularly worried about normal rough handling and wear and tear on them but admit that when I go far from home and am spending a bunch of money on the hunt I do have a second gun with me "just in case" cuz while I never was a boy scout I do believe in their motto of being prepared. But then when I travel I take everything but the kitchen sink with me anyway and I do have an extra one of those up behind the barn just in case I feel a need to take it on some trip.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2007, 02:17:25 PM »

So tell me JJ, when you go to Africa, how many guns to you take? Are your guns dependable?

JJHACK · « **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2007, 04:41:50 PM »

That's a baited question, because I don't defend what I use as if it were my children! I've never claimed that if you don't use what I do your choice is wrong. Not with guns or with any gear for that matter.

With that said, my situation does not fit the conditions the same as a recreational sport hunter. My rifles are loaners and I usually have as many as I bring going out with hunters every single day. Plus I need one.

When I'm hunting for myself, I use the 375HH in RSA it solves any eventuality I may run into. When I travel to hunt for myself I have never once brought along two rifles on any hunt anyplace on earth for non-DG. Only when DG has been involved, and then I needed a minimum cartridge to meet legal requirements.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2007, 02:09:30 AM »

I'll admit it JJ, that was a baited question. I also understand your situation is different.

Now I'll explain my situation. Before I take my guns on any hunting trip, I've put at least 100 or 200 rounds through it. I am, however a compulsive sort and despite the confidence I have in the gun, I still know that any gun or scope, especially the scope, can malfunction. I don't want to be several thousand miles from home with a non working gun. In addition, airline baggage handlers can do things to guns that we can hardly imagine. I know I could borrow a gun at the other end but, being a gun and handloading enthusiast, I want to use my own. Another reason for taking a second gun is to try out the second gun.

Maybe I've magnified the dependability issue. You travel a lot more with guns than I do. Have you ever had a gun malfunction or had baggage handlers damage your gun to extent you couldn't use it without repair?

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2007, 03:28:24 AM »

JJ,
Do you use iron sights with your scoped guns? What type scopes do you use?

JJHACK · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2007, 03:53:06 AM »

I use an ICC aluminum case. I've never needed as much as a single click of scope adjustment in my life. I have never seen a need to adjst or repair anyone elses rifle or scope either.

I know of two rifles damaged during a hunt. Long story about how this happened I should write this down as one is very funny! The length of my experience spans 20 plus years and probably pushing 1000 travelers. It's over 400 in Africa with my own business and while I worked for another outfitter there were maybe an equal amount. Add in Alaska and my bear hunting in Wa. State. Yeah maybe even over 1000 hunters now! This ends up being a puny almost non-existant worry for damage to rifles. A good Aluminum case, or a heavy duty Browning or Pelican case will just about guarantee safe travel.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2007, 07:43:08 AM »

I'm assuming JJ that you do not use iron sights, unless they are on your older rifles. I'm also assuming you use the best scopes available such as Leopould or Nikon.

JJHACK · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:03:40 AM »

Sorry about that, I have iron sights with Warne QD rings on my 375HH and only iron on my Lott.

All my scopes are made by leopold..............Is there another option?

cam69conv · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2007, 09:36:19 AM »

Im guessing you have the iron sights on the double for safety. Im guessing it would be kinna hard to get a scope on a pissed off cape or wounded leapord bearing down on you, ready to make you that days worm food

I can see the argument these guys are making as far as a peace of mind thing. And I have personally seen baggage handlers mistreat my bow case on a couple of occasions. Seen one throw mine from the luggage unloader over 8 feet to the carrier and it was marked FRAGILE!!!!! Kinna hard to swallow when you have a 2000 dollar rig in that case and about to shoot in competition. Plus I have read and heard many horror stories about scopes being knocked off and broken upon arrival to a destination of a plane trip so its not unheard of at all.

And yes there are MANY options to the overpriced Leopold's Like the Nikon's or many other moderately priced yet still VERY high quality scopes on the market today with lifetime guarantees and such. Isn't that what you said earlier that you laugh about? How there's only one brand (the one you use) and the rest are junk? I have a Nikon on my 7mm mag that has never failed me. Have a Nikon on my .444 that has never failed me. Have a Nikon on my .300 win mag that I will put up against ANY Leo any day as I would all of them. Of course this is just my opinion (opinion is that I like my money and dont blow it for a name but for proof of quality at a fair price). Is Leo a quality product? Yes. Are there just as good a scopes but at a much lower price? YEPPERS I currently own 9 Nikon's on top of 9 weapons ,from hellatious kickers to pups and used them in some of the foulest weather conditions ever and never had a single one fail. Here's the real kicker, not a single one cost over 250 (248.50 for my really nice one on the .300 win mag) and I will match them up against any leo for light transmission, clarity, toughness, warranty, and over all customer approval any time. But do I think they are the only thing out there? Nope. Many new scopes out there that are starting to figure out that if you dont make a quality product you are gonna say goodbye to your company. Took Bushnell a while to figure out that when their product started to fall to crap so did their sales. Now they are starting to make a quality scope again.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #18 on:** November 05, 2007, 04:30:43 PM »

I have some Nikon's and have never had a problem with them. I would not trade them off on a Leupold. But if I were investing in a trip to Africa, My rifle would have a Leupold, period. I'm not so sure they are that much better than Nikon but they've been proving how good they really are for a very long time. I don't think a scope made has the track record of a Leupold. I may have just lied. My 30-06 has a 2 3/4x Redfield widefield I'm very partial to; since about 1971. I'd have to give some serious thought to removing it! Does Luepold make a 2 3/4x or 3x still?

jro45 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2008, 03:26:15 AM »

I went to Africa in july 2007 And the rifle I used to kill a Gemsbok, Zerba Warts hog and a links Cat, was my 300 RUM shooting 200gr Nosler Partitions. I killed a Zerba at 280 yds with it. This was my longest shot.

drdougrx · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2008, 04:02:34 AM »

For what it's worth. My opinion is that unless the gun is run over in some way, or the stock is compromised by snapping off at the wrist (I've seen this ltttle gem when an ATV took a corner around a tree too tight and the rifle was fastened to it solidly and it caught the very tip of the butt stock), I always take a spare, presighted, scope in rings.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2008, 02:22:05 PM »

If I go on a $10,000 African hunt, you better believe I am going to take every precaution so my money will be well spent. A spare scope with rings attached is a good Idea, and could be carried with your clothing. The cost of the plane flight also isn't the biggest expense, so an extra piece of luggage checked shouldn't be that much of a problem for an extra rifle.

deltecs · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2008, 04:29:07 PM »

My younger brother told me today that Great Britain now prohibits all firearms coming into the country whether or not it is for plane transfers. I know my parents when they went to Africa had to stop in London on the return flight. This was not a planned layover to visit the country so I'm presuming a change of planes on their way back. Has anyone heard if this is accurate or not? And will it effect hunters traveling to Africa?

JJHACK · « **Reply #23 on:** January 06, 2008, 04:23:15 AM »

That is very bad information. BA does flights for my hunters through the UK every year including this year and there is no such regulation

deltecs · « **Reply #24 on:** January 06, 2008, 11:25:30 AM »

Quote from: JJHACK on January 06, 2008, 04:23:15 AM

That is very bad information. BA does flights for my hunters through the UK every year including this year and there is no such regulation

I don't know when the following rules were implemented. These were taken from the BritainUSA website.

Quote

Visitors wishing to bring firearms and/or ammunition into England, Scotland or Wales must first obtain a British Visitor's Firearms Permit. Two types of permits are available, one for shotguns and one for non-prohibited rifles and handguns.

Specific guidelines on applying for a permit, as well as the criteria for which they are granted, is available from the Metropolitan Police Service Firearms Enquiry Team

US visitors should be aware of the following:

Visitors from the United States can not apply for a visitor's permit. A person resident in the United Kingdom (the "sponsor") must apply for the permit on behalf of the visitor. The sponsor can be a private individual, a club, shooting organisation, a country estate, or a shooting syndicate.

Transhipment of Firearms
In addition to acquiring the appropriate Visitor's Firearms Permit, visitors arriving in the United Kingdom in transit to other locations, transferring to other airport terminals or airlines, or transferring to other airports, will have to make additional arrangements.
Departure from a different terminal to that of arrival (within the same airport)
or
Transfer of firearms from one airline to another (within the same airport)

Visitors are not permitted to take possession of the firearms while at the airport. Therefore, arrangements must be made with the airline(s) to transfer the firearms from the terminal of arrival to that of departure, or from one airline to another.

Departure from a different airport to that of arrival

It is not possible for an individual to take possession of the firearm while it is in transit. Visitors are advised to contact their airlines to determine the best means for handling the transhipment of the firearms or ammunition.

Alternatively, visitors can arrange for the services of a bonded carrier who would collect the firearms/ammunition at the point of arrival and deliver it to the point of departure.

The British International Freight Association (BIFA) can provide a list of its member companies that provide a bonded carrier service for firearms.

In addition, American Airlines prohibits transporting firearms on its carrier to Great Britain period effective 9/24/2007. This directly from American Airlines home page under FAQ's.

Quote

Effective with tickets purchased on/after September 24, 2007, American Airlines will no longer accept firearms in checked baggage to/from the United Kingdom (except for military/government personnel with proper documentation).

This from British Airways homepage.

Quote

Can I take a sporting gun on a British Airways flight?

Answer
Passengers wishing to take a sporting gun on British Airways mainline flights are able to do so.

The gun must be unloaded, dismantled and packed securely in a storage case to go in the aircraft hold (any locks should be fastened, however please ensure that you have the keys with you for any security inspections).
Passengers must carry any shotgun/firearm certificates that they have.
Sporting guns are defined as such guns as air rifles, safari rifles, hunting rifles, etc.

If you wish to take a sporting gun on your journey with you, you will need to inform your local British Airways office 72 hours (minimum 24 hours) before your travel date. They will need to know the Make, Model & Calibre of the weapon(s).

Please note: There are certain destinations that British Airways cannot carry weapons to, from the UK (both originating and transferring) as a result of UK & EU legislation. This is why we require advance notification so that you can be advised if there is an embargo in advance of your travel date.

Your local British Airways office telephone numbers can be found if you click here.

Any ammunition to be carried must be for sporting purposes only, and the maximum gross weight must not exceed 5kgs per passenger.
All ammunition must be securely boxed and preferably stored inside a suitcase.
Any suitcases/carry cases/boxes containing ammunition must not bear an 'explosives' label.
Currently, there is no bonded baggage service between London Heathrow and London Gatwick Airports. All firearms that need to travel between these two airport must be transported by a licensed dealer. Passengers must make arrangements prior to travel with the dealer. This applies to passengers who do not hold a valid UK Firearms Certificate.

These restrictions must have an impact on hunters wishing to hunt Europe and Africa. Merely transporting weapons through Great Britain is becoming tedious at best.

quackgr · « **Reply #25 on:** January 09, 2008, 02:00:48 PM »

I also hunted in 07 in RSA, I brought two rifles, not because they might fail, but I barreled and made my own stock for one of them, They were, a 300 RUM on a weatherby mark V action, and a 700 REm in 35 whelen . Both worked flawlesy but the 300 was a better peformer, none of the 300 bullets were recoverd but I did get one from the 35( wildebeest @ 125yds ) the 300 brought down A Kudu, Impala,Blesbok. Both rifles used Barnes TSX bullets. They were all hand loads and I wanted to see how both perfomed! the 300 shot 180 grains, and the 35 used 250 grain Barnes.

Gerald Corey

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #26 on:** January 10, 2008, 05:04:58 AM »

Would a 225 grain bullet penetrate better than the 250 traveling a little faster?

quackgr · « **Reply #27 on:** January 10, 2008, 06:02:42 PM »

not with my hand loads, the vel. was not that much diff. over my chronograph. and my rifle grouped better with the 250's
I got a tip for you , if you want to retrieve a fired bullet and check for expansion, what I did is shoot into a snow drift at 50yds and then mark the spot, then come spring, you can find them just laying on the ground look like new with rifling marks but no rock or dirt damage perfect peelback of the pedals.
Gerald Corey ps you have to live in snow country!

VX3 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 15, 2008, 10:53:47 PM »

quote]Visitors wishing to bring firearms and/or ammunition into England, Scotland or Wales must first obtain a British Visitor's Firearms Permit. Two types of permits are available, one for shotguns and one for non-prohibited rifles and handguns.

Specific guidelines on applying for a permit, as well as the criteria for which they are granted, is available from the Metropolitan Police Service Firearms Enquiry Team

US visitors should be aware of the following:

Visitors from the United States can not apply for a visitor's permit. A person resident in the United Kingdom (the "sponsor") must apply for the permit on behalf of the visitor. The sponsor can be a private individual, a club, shooting organisation, a country estate, or a shooting syndicate.

Transhipment of Firearms
In addition to acquiring the appropriate Visitor's Firearms Permit, visitors arriving in the United Kingdom in transit to other locations, transferring to other airport terminals or airlines, or transferring to other airports, will have to make additional arrangements.
Departure from a different terminal to that of arrival (within the same airport)
or Transfer of firearms from one airline to another (within the same airport)

Visitors are not permitted to take possession of the firearms while at the airport. Therefore, arrangements must be made with the airline(s) to transfer the firearms from the terminal of arrival to that of departure, or from one airline to another.

Departure from a different airport to that of arrival

It is not possible for an individual to take possession of the firearm while it is in transit. Visitors are advised to contact their airlines to determine the best means for handling the transhipment of the firearms or ammunition.

Alternatively, visitors can arrange for the services of a bonded carrier who would collect the firearms/ammunition at the point of arrival and deliver it to the point of departure.

The British International Freight Association (BIFA) can provide a list of its member companies that provide a bonded carrier service for firearms.

In addition, American Airlines prohibits transporting firearms on its carrier to Great Britain period effective 9/24/2007. This directly from American Airlines home page under FAQ's.

Quote

Effective with tickets purchased on/after September 24, 2007, American Airlines will no longer accept firearms in checked baggage to/from the United Kingdom (except for military/government personnel with proper documentation).

This from British Airways homepage.

Quote
Can I take a sporting gun on a British Airways flight?

Answer
Passengers wishing to take a sporting gun on British Airways mainline flights are able to do so.

The gun must be unloaded, dismantled and packed securely in a storage case to go in the aircraft hold (any locks should be fastened, however please ensure that you have the keys with you for any security inspections).
Passengers must carry any shotgun/firearm certificates that they have.
Sporting guns are defined as such guns as air rifles, safari rifles, hunting rifles, etc.

If you wish to take a sporting gun on your journey with you, you will need to inform your local British Airways office 72 hours (minimum 24 hours) before your travel date. They will need to know the Make, Model & Calibre of the weapon(s).

Please note: There are certain destinations that British Airways cannot carry weapons to, from the UK (both originating and transferring) as a result of UK & EU legislation. This is why we require advance notification so that you can be advised if there is an embargo in advance of your travel date.

Your local British Airways office telephone numbers can be found if you click here.

Any ammunition to be carried must be for sporting purposes only, and the maximum gross weight must not exceed 5kgs per passenger.
All ammunition must be securely boxed and preferably stored inside a suitcase.
Any suitcases/carry cases/boxes containing ammunition must not bear an 'explosives' label.
Currently, there is no bonded baggage service between London Heathrow and London Gatwick Airports. All firearms that need to travel between these two airport must be transported by a licensed dealer. Passengers must make arrangements prior to travel with the dealer. This applies to passengers who do not hold a valid UK Firearms Certificate.[/quote]

JJHACK..

Quote

That is very bad information. BA does flights for my hunters through the UK every year including this year and there is no such regulation.

This is the kind of advice that I would expect on Jesses hunting Page (JHP, or jesseshunting <dot> com). HHJACK, you are the very best Moderator on that site. Please don't turn in GBO into a JHO.

Also - If you have a case that fits two good rifles for you're safari, why not bring them??? This thread is just really odd.

HHJack - IMO, You should have a banner under every post you make to promote you're guiding business instead of beating around the bush & raining on members trips.

JJHACK · « **Reply #29 on:** January 16, 2008, 04:19:32 AM »

Why so much silly aggression on these things, read the thread and see the response.

Here is the quote from the original post:

My younger brother told me today that Great Britain now prohibits all firearms coming into the country whether or not it is for plane transfers

Here is my response:

That is very bad information. BA does flights for my hunters through the UK every year including this year and there is no such regulation.

If it's not allowed to happen and the UK will not allow guns and ammo on a flight, can you answer me why when the BA flights arrive in Joburg and the line of hunters at the SAPs office has 20-40 people waiting on gun permits how did those rifles get from the UK to Joburg on those flights?

You see there is quite a difference between internet folks who have done this one time and are now an "expert" and those of us who do this for a living every year.....year after year, and work with the SAPs office, the travel industry, and have the licenses and businesses to run and manage.

I have no comment on the above copied document which is printed here. Don't know where it came from or, if it's true why it's completely ignored by BA and the UK. The fact is that I have had hunters every year for longer then I can remember fly on BA through the UK and they have brought guns with them just fine. The UK has specific requirements on connections and the transfer of firearms, but it's certainly not being banned from happening!

There are lots of laws in lots of countries, but many have a policy as well. Just as an example. It's illegal to wear camo clothing in several southern African countries, not enforced at all, It's illegal to hunt with a firearm that will discharge a bullet with each pull of the trigger, however that would make a double rifle illegal, certainly not the case. It's also legal to hunt with a double action revolver which should be illegal with that law. I could continue but you get the "drift" here.

However the entertainment value of these posts is always good when the debates start with folks who have done it once or twice!

What does any of this have to do with "raining on members trips" Where is a debate or question regarding firearms transport through the UK reflective of "raining on a members trip"