Author Topic: The doomed? (Read 2113 times)

Questor · « **on:** September 27, 2007, 05:17:45 AM »

Which new factory cartridges do you see as doomed to a quick extinction? My top vote is for

30 T/C

I think you've got to be totally oblivious to what's available in the cartridge world to buy one of these.

skb2706 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:54:53 AM »

you could add the .308 marlin to the list................what were these people thinking. Not sure there will be a continuing demand for .375 ruger, .338 Fed. or any of the WSSMs. I hope there is, I like new stuff but I wonder if there really is.

myronman3 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2007, 09:58:35 AM »

sooner or later the 460 and 500 smith. also the super short mags....the hype will wear thin and cost will drive people away from these wastes of resources.

charles p · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2007, 10:05:39 AM »

I predict the 300WSM will be the only survivor in that family. I agree with the other selections made above. Don't see a need for the Rem SAUMs.

If it were not for the 7mm-08, I think the .284 would rise from the grave. Maybe the 6.5-.284 will go factory someday and replace the .260.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2007, 11:54:56 AM »

While the .260 would be a wonderful replacement for the .243, I doubt it's gonna happen. Just too many .243 floating around. And the niche between the .243 and the 7-08 is too narrow for another cartridge to be a commercial success. Had the .260 been introduced instead of the 6mm Rem, few people would even remember the .243. (IMO)

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2007, 12:15:33 PM »

We have them all here: R700 ADL .243, R7 CDL .260, R7 7-08 and R7 .308. Dang ya gotten keep all them nitches filled cuz if ya don't ya never know what might slip in thru the crack.

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2007, 12:20:03 PM »

I hope the .375 Ruger makes it. It's one of the few sensible cartridges to come along in a while. I wish Remington would chamber it in one of their rifles.

The .30T/C & the .308 Marlin are soon gonners IMO.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2007, 12:38:53 PM »

This thread can go on and on. Gray Beard said it best in another thread. Company's bring out new cartridges to sell guns. Once they sell you that gun, it does not matter if the cartridge survives or not. It is on to a newer better cartridge and sell you yet another gun. From time to time a new cartridge sticks, because it fills a small niche. I think the .204 Ruger is just such an example. It filled that small gap between the 17 Rem and a 223, it was different and does a decent job for it's intended purpose. I think it will be around for some time. Some times a new cartridge makes it because it was a wild cat for years and refused to die. Remington has capitalized on this for many years. The 7-08 and 22-250 are just two examples of this. Their newest is the 17 Fireball. Only time will tell if it makes it, but it has been around since the 60's and was called the 17 Mach IV. Here is another factor that helps determine if a cartridge survives...The gun writers. If enough of them push a cartridge long enough, it ends up making it. All new cartridges get a lot of billing to start with. After all, they are sent to the writers for free to evaluate or they send the writers on hunting trips to try out their new offering. The gun writers write all kinds of good things, why not? If they are still writing good things about the cartridges long after the companies have sent them their perks, it probably will survive for a long time. Some times a cartridge makes it because of improvements in loading components. The 5mm Remington died due to it's lack of real performance over the Winchester 22 Magnum and extra expense. Along comes the 17 HMR and it really takes off. There was a powder called Lil'gun that came out and made all of the difference. If Lil'gun or some other "magic" powder was available at the time of the 5 mm it may have survived. Who knows. Then there is just the fickleness of the shooting consumer. There is no reason the .260 Remington should not survive. It is a fine cartridge with plenty of killing power for deer and down. It has real long range potential and does not recoil very badly. I do not think it will see another decade. That is just too bad. Why? Americans have not embraced the 6.5 mm. They love the 6 mm and 7 mm stuff. Go figure. Just a few things to maul over.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2007, 12:44:36 PM »

Any of the SAUM's.........

Cheesehead · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2007, 01:11:00 PM »

The 6.5 Grendel will not survive since it is being pushed out by the ever more popular 6.8 SPC as new cartridges for the AR15 platform and other applications as well.

Cheese

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2007, 01:20:27 PM »

I do not think the 30 T/C will not make it either. Why? Only one gun maker is offering it. If 4 or more gun manufactures make guns for it, it could take off, but I do not see it happening. One of the reasons the 17 HMR is going to be a survivor, this because anyone who makes a 22 Mag rim fire rifle offers a 17 HMR. Why have so many done this? If you made a 22 Mag, then it is a real cheap and easy step to a 17 HMR. You only have to come up with a different barrel. The same action and feed mechanism are used. There is little tooling cost. The same for ammo makers, if you make a 22 mag it is not a big step to a 17 HMR. It has become popular enough that some have developed semi-autos for it too. It has got a lot of positive press for a long period of time. After all; it has a trajectory like a laser, shoots into .25 MOA and it will kill a woodchuck out to 300 yards. What is there not to like?

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2007, 02:35:23 AM »

Agreed with LaOtto222

It may not be so much the caliber (cept that .30TC) as much as the manufacturing and tool cost.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** September 28, 2007, 03:54:18 AM »

If the cost of the new ammo keeps going up and supplies get any less aval. alot of rounds might be gone , only the ones that produce the highest income will be the ones the ammo companies will produce !

Castaway · « **Reply #13 on:** September 28, 2007, 04:14:09 AM »

I have 5 nominees. 30-06, 45-70, 38 Special, 45 ACP and the 45 Colt. All are at risk to die a quick death with the plethora of flashy, new and improved things that do the same thing, but..... thre are some that say they are waiting for smokeless powder to prove itself before they switch over from black powder.

skb2706 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 28, 2007, 04:43:15 AM »

I will be surprised if we see the 6.8 SPC around much longer.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** September 28, 2007, 04:52:20 AM »

skb2706 , why ? been thinking about a ruger , whats up with it ?

1sourdough · « **Reply #16 on:** September 28, 2007, 05:08:40 AM »

I'm mostly mainstream, 223's,243's,308's etc but I do have a 300WSM & a 284 win that I like alot. I have enough reloading supplies to cover me for life. People seem impressed by the 7mm-08 when the 284 win does all it can do & more starting in 1963. I think I will put my 308 aside this Nov & try the 284 for deer.

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** September 28, 2007, 05:21:30 AM »

Yup the .30 TC is likely to be the first of the latest bunch to die. I can't see it lasting long at all. The new Marlin .30 likely will last a bit longer but will never amount to much and will fade like the .307 Winchester did before it. I also agree the 6.8 will be short lived. It will be a bit of a flash in the pan I think.

I don't see any of the fat rounds short or long surviving long term. Oh some will hold out for a few years but 20 years from now when someone mentions one of them folks will say huh, what's that? The new .375 Ruger won't make it either.

Questor · « **Reply #18 on:** September 28, 2007, 05:33:40 AM »

I never quite understood the 6.8 SPC. There have been plenty of military guns of the past that had more range than the 223. Why couldn't they just have used some of those? They're still widely avaiilable. I'm thinking of the M14 in particular.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** September 28, 2007, 05:33:56 AM »

GB you saved me $ on the 6.8 , should have learned on the 7X30 waters !
its not what a round can and will do its about cost and aval. of ammo !

Questor · « **Reply #20 on:** September 28, 2007, 06:00:15 AM »

Shootall:

I couldn't agree more about the issue of availability and cost. Most of my cartridges were selected for availability of components, but just as importantly, availability of good information about their use, availability of good guns for them, and availability of bullets that were designed with those cartridges in mind.

skb2706 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2007, 06:50:23 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on September 28, 2007, 04:52:20 AM

skb2706 , why ? been thinking about a ruger , whats up with it ?

Its not that I think there is anything wrong with the 6.8...infact it would make a great rifle for young/small persons deer rifle. I just don't think there will be a 'following' to support it. Odd sized case head, non-standard basic brass, limited bullet selection..........

But hey that why alot of us handload to be able to shoot the stuff that got shelved..........among my list of favorites -

.221 FB (only sparatic interest from the mainstream),

.357 max (given up on long ago by all but the few of us to give it a try)

.260 Remington (only thing keeping it alive is the internet and long range shooters)

7-30 Waters (if it weren't for TC this one would have been gone like the Edsel...years ago)

So even tho alot of the above mentioned rounds will whither away, us die hards will keep a few around for posts like this one.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2007, 07:03:50 AM »

Still use the 7X30 and have a ammo box full od 357 max ! guess one morte won't hurt !

Cheesehead · « **Reply #23 on:** September 28, 2007, 07:35:43 AM »

The 6.8 continues to grow in ammo and firearm options. It was created for a harder hitting ar15 option as compared to the 223.

Cheese

longwinters · « **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2007, 11:08:55 AM »

"Which new factory cartridges do you see as doomed to a quick extinction? My top vote is for

30 T/C

I think you've got to be totally oblivious to what's available in the cartridge world to buy one of these."

Actually I think it has the making of an interesting cartridge . . . except that the only way you can get the velocities out of it is buying Hornady factory ammo. That would be the only thing, in my mind, that will kill it.

Long

beemanbeme · « **Reply #25 on:** September 28, 2007, 12:33:48 PM »

If one can assume everyone here is a reloader, who care if a cartridge is a success or a failure? If it scratches your itch, buy a set of dies, a couple of hunded cases, a 1000 bullets and you're set.

And you know full well, once the cartridge is no longer made, the shooting public will scream to high heavens wanting it back and won't be able to understand why the stupid gun companies dropped it from their inventories. The .284 is an excellent example.

Same deal with a rifle. Better get you one of those Icons. If they fail, you're on easy street. I saw a model 788 for $800 a while back. And how many pre-64's have you seen that looked like they'd been used to drive fence posts with that the dealer wanted 4 figures for.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2007, 01:00:29 PM »

Several of you have mentioned the 6.8

I do not have one so no bias here and I think they are a great cartridge. I have not met a cartridge I do not like, by the way. There have been many great cartridges that have died over the years (remember the 30 Remington?). Some times I buy a gun in a odd ball chambering. I have a couple of 221 Fireballs. They may go away some day too, but I can make cases out of 223 and they are not going away. The reason there are as many guns that are available in 6.8 is that the manufactures thought is was going to be adopted by the military as a replacement to the 5.56. The military has not fully endorsed it yet. If they do not adopt it as a standard volume cartridge, I think it will die. If they do it will take off and be as popular as the 308. It is simply a supply issue. If you can buy cheap military surplus cases or ammo it is assured that it will live a long life. It has a (non-standard) case head. I mean it is not a 308 or 223 size or of the basic belted mag. I thought about getting one, early. This was when the gun writers were all hyping it. It could shoot as flat as a laser, hold .25 MOA and kill deer like lightening out to 300 yards

I could buy a gun, but could not get ammo or cases or make cases to load with, end of that thought. It's bullet range is the smaller 270 stuff, because it was not designed to shoot the heavier bullets. It would make a good low recoiling deer rifle, but there are so many that fall into that category. The 243, 260, 6mm Remington 7mm-08, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 30-30, 6.5 Swede just to name a few. Some of them are on their way out too. I do not think the 250 Savage, 257 Roberts or the 260 has much life left, for instance, even though they are all great deer rifles. The point is, it is very crowded in this category. The bullets are too big and too slow to make it as a varmint cartridge. That category is even more crowded. From the 22 rim fire through the 25-06, there a lot of cartridges. So unless there is a compelling reason I am not aware of, it is going to go the way of the dinosaurs. That is too bad, it is a great cartridge.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #27 on:** September 28, 2007, 01:24:29 PM »

The 6.8 SPC is all about the AR15. If using an AR15 for deer hunting is of interest, the 6.8 SPC is a good fit. It was not designed for a bolt rifle or a single shot but works well in those firearms also.

Cheese

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 28, 2007, 02:11:11 PM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on September 28, 2007, 01:24:29 PM

The 6.8 SPC is all about the AR15. If using an AR15 for deer hunting is of interest, the 6.8 SPC is a good fit. It was not designed for a bolt rifle or a single shot but works well in those firearms also.

Cheese

I agree with you, like I said it is a great cartridge. Don't you have to admit that is is kind of a specialty thing. A deer rifle in a AR 15...it works alright, but how many are going to be sold to support making cases and ammo for? The AR 15's do cost $1000, some considerably more; when you can buy hundreds of different deer guns for less money, including semi -autos. It is kind of a niche thing. Not that it is bad. I have a brother-in-law that loves military guns. He is retired from the Army, he owns lots of military guns, mostly surplus bolt guns and civilian ones including a ranch rifle. He does not own an AR 15, just too expensive. I think he would love to have one. How about the 6.5 Grendel or the .450, kind of nichey aren't they? They all have their place and like I said there isn't a one of them I do not like, but are they going to live down the road??? I am truly amazed at the ingenuity and resourcefulness of the designers/modifiers of the AR-15 and of the cartridges. I personally do not like them, I am more of a single shot guy. I am not bashing the AR-15 because they are a truly amazing gun design, just not for me.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #29 on:** September 28, 2007, 02:40:36 PM »

""If using an AR15 for deer hunting is of interest, the 6.8 SPC is a good fit""

The AR15 platform is immensely popular and not for everyone. I have a number of military rifles and am fascinated by them and their history. The AR15 in 223 number in the millions. The 6.8SPC is now the number 2 chambering in the AR15 platform and growing. The 6.8 is here to stay.

Cheese