Author Topic: OK, I just picked up a new Savage Smokeless M/L today (Read 1671 times)

Redhawk1 · « **on:** September 28, 2007, 02:55:31 PM »

OK, I just picked up a new Savage Smokeless M/L today. Now that I can't find anyone that has a scope mount for it. Where do you guys get your scope mounts from? I just have to try it out.

Thanks

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2007, 03:31:58 PM »

OK just ordered them from Midsouth shooter supply.

Oldsnow · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2007, 03:51:50 PM »

Welcome to the world of smokeless muzzleloading. I hope you ordered steel bases, much better on this rifle then aluminum.
Keep us posted on the progress of the Savage M/L II.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 28, 2007, 05:14:43 PM »

Quote from: Oldsnow on September 28, 2007, 03:51:50 PM

Welcome to the world of smokeless muzzleloading. I hope you ordered steel bases, much better on this rifle then aluminum.
Keep us posted on the progress of the Savage M/L II.

I sure did. I ordered the WEAVER S61 GRAND SLAM 1/2 STEEL TOP MOUNT.
I just had to see what all the fuss was about. I am going to try some PR duplex 195 gr. and see how the shoot in the rifle. I also have some T/C bonded shockwave 250 gr. bullets to try. I bought some SR4759 powder to try also. I am just trying to figure out what scope to use. I have a Leupold 1X4X20mm and a Bushnell banner 1.4X4.5 M/L scope. I can also take off a Nikon Buckmaster 3X9X40.

Slufoot · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2007, 11:30:03 PM »

Hello Redhawk,
I ordered one of the very first stainless steel 10ML-II's that came out. I've had this gun for several years now and have also taken several deer and turkeys with it.
You must have been doing your homework before buying this because IMR SR-4759 is an excellent powder for bullets up to 300 grains. My load consists of this powder, a Knight Orange sabot and a Remington .458", 300 gr. JHP.
Let us know how you like you new gun.
Which model are you getting?

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2007, 01:42:55 AM »

I went with the Model 10ML-II with accutrigger blued and black synthetic stock. He only had two in stock, and the other was a camo pattern with blued barrel.
You are right, I have done a lot of reading and questioning other Savage owners before I bought one. Although I will hang on to my Encore Pro-hunter.

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2007, 01:52:27 AM »

There's a lot of good Savage info at Randy Wakeman's site. The Savage is the best inline available IMO.

Oldsnow · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2007, 03:11:36 AM »

Redhawk I have the liminated SS with a Tasco world class plus 3.5x10 scope on it. I have used IMR 4759 it is a good powder, lots of people use it. Wright now I am shooting 65Gr's of H4198 with 250 SST's and CCI magnum primers. This is the load I plan to hunt with this year.
The Savage is a 200+ YD. shooter. Keep us posted on your progress.
Gray Beard may want to put a smokeless board on this forum if members keep going smokeless.

tutti confuso · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2007, 03:42:50 AM »

SMOKELESS powder.. Geeeez are you fellas using smokeless powder in muzzlers,..... can Varget be used ? ?

Quote from: Oldsnow on September 29, 2007, 03:11:36 AM

Redhawk I have the liminated SS with a Tasco world class plus 3.5x10 scope on it. I have used IMR 4759 it is a good powder, lots of people use it. Wright now I am shooting 65Gr's of H4198 with 250 SST's and CCI magnum primers.

Swampman · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2007, 04:06:18 AM »

Smokless is only for the Savage muzzleloader. Savage's recomended loads are hard to improve on.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 29, 2007, 04:30:21 AM »

Quote from: tutti confuso on September 29, 2007, 03:42:50 AM

SMOKELESS powder.. Geeeez are you fellas using smokeless powder in muzzlers,..... can Varget be used ? ?

Quote from: Oldsnow on September 29, 2007, 03:11:36 AM
Redhawk I have the liminated SS with a Tasco world class plus 3.5x10 scope on it. I have used IMR 4759 it is a good powder, lots of people use it. Wright now I am shooting 65Gr's of H4198 with 250 SST's and CCI magnum primers.

As Swampman said, in the Savage smokless M/L only.

Oldsnow · « **Reply #11 on:** September 29, 2007, 04:42:14 AM »

Their are some other brands of smokeless muzzleloaders around.

SMI Web Site
http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

NULA Web Site:
http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html

Busta · « **Reply #12 on:** September 29, 2007, 01:24:21 PM »

Here is another one, but watch out for the sticker shock!

http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/html/index.html

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** September 29, 2007, 01:32:48 PM »

Here's another..

http://www.swinglock.net/

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 29, 2007, 04:06:16 PM »

Ok there are some custom builder of smokeless M/L's. But Savage is the actual production smokeless M/L.

Swampman · « **Reply #15 on:** September 30, 2007, 12:45:32 AM »

And the only affordable (cost effective)one IMO.

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** September 30, 2007, 03:05:05 AM »

Man, stay away from Wakeman's site. If you want Savage info, look up Doug's Savage Board. Honest, knowledgable people who aren't trying to sell you anything. Those guys know the Savage in and out, all the way to new barrels and breech plug making, etc etc.

Redhawk, you may want to lurk there for awhile. I'll tell you you could have problems with those little 195s. First, start the charge on the low end as those soft lead bullets will deform more under the acceleration of smokeless than BP...not a huge share of the guys shoot them for that reason. Also, with BP the speed advantage you gain with the copper-jacketed bullets is modest over the 195 and it's ballistic coefficient but not so with smokeless...you can push the copper so much faster that if trajectory is your goal copper always wins by a landslide.

Finally, with bullets significantly sub-caliber (ie the .40 Shockwave in a .50 sabot, or the .357s), those smokeless charges can blow the sabot out right around the bullet, which will punch a nice round hole in the base of the sabot and leave the barrel tumbling AFTER the sabot departs. So you may need to add a sub-base.

Let us all know how it shoots!!

Swampman · « **Reply #17 on:** September 30, 2007, 03:55:29 AM »

I really like Randy Wakeman. He's not afraid to tell the truth no matter who's toe it mashes.

Busta · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2007, 05:29:38 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on September 30, 2007, 03:55:29 AM

I really like Randy Wakeman. He's not afraid to tell the truth no matter who's toe it mashes.

He is also not afraid to stretch the truth to make a buck!

Oldsnow · « **Reply #19 on:** September 30, 2007, 03:58:36 PM »

Busta I am with you. $$$$$$$$$$$

Swampman · « **Reply #20 on:** September 30, 2007, 04:12:07 PM »

Randy has to deal with a lot of jealousy. His articles are very good and informative. Folks don't like being told their pet muzzleloader is dangerous to life and limb.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 30, 2007, 04:46:26 PM »

Yes I already know about Randy Fakeman. There are a lot better sources for information out there.

AndyHass, I want to try the 195 gr. PR DC bullets because the PR site clames they will work.
From there web site.
"The Bullets:
Much has been written regarding .451 sabots and bullets being the only caliber suitable for use in the Savage. We have no idea who started this theory or what their motives were for starting it but I can tell you that our testing could not substantiate that claim. Our testing included Dead Center bullets in .357, .40, .44 and .45 calibers. We went from 195 gr..357 up to 340 gr. .45 caliber with all capable of shooting sub MOA groups when loaded with an appropriate charge of the appropriate powder.
Higher velocities and a quicker twist inside the barrel (1:24" versus 1:28") allowed us to develop a 260 gr. .40 Dead Center specifically for use in the Savage. Of my two 10ML-II, one shoots the very best using the 260 gr. Dead Center .40 while the other one shoots the very best with the 195 Duplex .357 Dead Center."

Slufoot · « **Reply #22 on:** October 01, 2007, 01:31:05 AM »

That's one of the great things about the Savage, there are so many load combinations that you can try. You will quickly learn what sabots will work and which will not. If you want to use a chronograph while developing loads you need to make a guard to protect the front of the chronograph. I busted my chrono 2 times with sabots. I have since made a guard out of 1/4" diamond plate aluminum and haven't had a problem since.
The Savage opens a new world in muzzleloading and it's alot of fun with out the rust.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

AndyHass · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2007, 03:18:27 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on September 30, 2007, 04:46:26 PM

Yes I already know about Randy Fakeman. There are a lot better sources for information out there.

AndyHass, I want to try the 195 gr. PR DC bullets because the PR site clames they will work.
From there web site.
"The Bullets:
Much has been written regarding .451 sabots and bullets being the only caliber suitable for use in the Savage. We have no idea who started this theory or what their motives were for starting it but I can tell you that our testing could not substantiate that claim. Our testing included Dead Center bullets in .357, .40, .44 and .45 calibers. We went from 195 gr..357 up to 340 gr. .45 caliber with all capable of shooting sub MOA groups when loaded with an appropriate charge of the appropriate powder.
Higher velocities and a quicker twist inside the barrel (1:24" versus 1:28") allowed us to develop a 260 gr. .40 Dead Center specifically for use in the Savage. Of my two 10ML-II, one shoots the very best using the 260 gr. Dead Center .40 while the other one shoots the very best with the 195 Duplex .357 Dead Center."

I never said they wouldn't work...I said you may have trouble with them. There is a distinct difference. They say they can be MOA "with an appropriate powder". If you go with too fast a powder, or load too hot, the sub-caliber bullets will be more likely than a .45 to punch a hole through the back of the sabot. I've seen plenty of photos of them, this is not an urban legend. Start low, use a slower powder and I'm sure you'll find something that works.

I have a lot of respect for PR bullets, if it weren't for the price I'd shoot them more. However I've also had an individual at PR tell me on the phone that I was basically a liar when I said I could not push them over 2000 fps without losing accuracy. I don't take anything on word from someone who's A) selling me something, and B) also telling me they know my gun which they have never shot better than myself.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:24:21 PM »

AndyHass, I understand completely about having to try different loads. I have been shooting and developing loads for many muzzleloaders and rifles for about 30 years now. As far as PR trying to sell me anything, Cecil already knew I had 240 of his bullets already and was just trying to help me with a starting point. So in essence he was not just trying to make a sell. I have had nothing but great advice from PR and Cecil. I sold my Encore that I was shooting the 195 gr. duplex bullets in and have 2 cases left. So some how I need to use them up or sell them to some one who could use them if they do not work in my Savage. I do how ever have a back up bullet I am going to try also. I have the T/C bonded shockwave 250 gr. bullet with the black sabot.

Sorry you had a bad experience with PR.

elkstalkr · « **Reply #25 on:** October 04, 2007, 05:08:27 AM »

Redhawk,

Congrats on the new ML, hope you like it. I like mine!

Swampman,

Check out SMI'S website, they build affordable smokeless off H&R frames. You can get one for under $500! I had them build a small one for my wife, as those dang savages are too big for her to tote around.

AndyHass · « **Reply #26 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:37:08 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on October 03, 2007, 04:24:21 PM

AndyHass, I understand completely about having to try different loads. I have been shooting and developing loads for many muzzleloaders and rifles for about 30 years now. As far as PR trying to sell me anything, Cecil already knew I had 240 of his bullets already and was just trying to help me with a starting point. So in essence he was not just trying to make a sell. I have had nothing but great advice from PR and Cecil. I sold my Encore that I was shooting the 195 gr. duplex bullets in and have 2 cases left. So some how I need to use them up or sell them to some one who could use them if they do not work in my Savage. I do how ever have a back up bullet I am going to try also. I have the T/C bonded shockwave 250 gr. bullet with the black sabot.

Sorry you had a bad experience with PR.

Let us know how the 195s go. Personally I think I'd give the 260 a try... My guess is you could push that bigger hunk of led every fps as fast as 777 will push a 195 in an Encore and maybe even get a better trajectory. (If you like the recoil).

I don't have a beef with PR. I still keep an eye on their products and like them. That single experience just rubbed a little wrong.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 04, 2007, 04:04:20 PM »

AndyHass, I have a range report in another post here. The 195 gr. did a great job.

Slufoot · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2007, 01:11:38 AM »

Quote from: Oldsnow on September 29, 2007, 03:11:36 AM

Gray Beard may want to put a smokeless board on this forum if members keep going smokeless.

Oldsnow, I really like your idea. There has been several replies to this topic in just a few days. It might also educate people to let them know there are only certain muzzleloaders made to shoot smokeless powder.
Great Idea!

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot