Author Topic: Has anyone shot projectiles using the military surplus blackpowder? (Read 1240 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** October 03, 2007, 12:39:41 AM »

We shoot mostly 3-inch and larger bore blackpowder cannons, both muzzle-loaders and breechloaders. We go through quite a bit of powder a year, and a cheaper source of powder than the current $10. per lb. would be nice. I've been offered military surplus black powder. I know that isn't much of a descriptor, but I have a small sample of it and when I find where I put that little glass vial, I'll take a picture of it next to some other common grain sizes. What I noticed about it is that the grains are totally random sizes, from nearly the size of a pencil eraser down to the smallest grains, maybe about like FFG. The grain sizes are all mixed up. Also the grains are dull-looking, like they are not graphite-coated as the commercial shooter grades are.

Why do I want to know? There's an explosives dealer in the midwest who sells it and a friend is going to get some soon, wants to know if I want a little to try out. He's been quoted $4.50 per lb. for the stuff.

I asked a local black powder dealer if he knew about the stuff and he said he had sold some, but the reenactors didn't like it since they could not get a good bang when firing it. He didn't know of anyone who had seriously tried to shoot projectiles with it. He stopped handling it since no one seemed to want it.

Please let me know if you have tried to fire projectiles with it.

accuratemike · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:38:15 AM »

http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/products3.html

This link takes you to the specs for US and other military black powders. I'd be suspicious of the true origin of the powder. The Mil specs are pretty tight. Unless all grades are mixed before they are sold, true military powder would certainly be more uniform. I have heard of Chinese powder that sells cheap and is not well sorted by grain size. It is either the same thing as, or is like, skirmish powder. Good shopping, MIKE

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2007, 06:00:50 AM »

Thanks. This stuff is genuine US Military because I know people at the company that does the demil to recover it. I'm guessing here but the powder may be the candle-ejection charge from 81MM mortar illumination rounds. The company did a run of tens of thousands of those rounds, taking them down into all the separate components. I'll see what the company can tell me, I meant to call them before I posted this.

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2007, 07:29:19 AM »

All black powder is not the same. I would stick with cannon grade an known entity. Loads and pressure values are well established.

Contact the powder companies and see what they say. It would be worth your while to drop Schuetzen and GOEXa n email and ask them what they say about using salvaged military grade black powder in cannons.

Switlik discusses the various different powders and his test show they are not all the same. Pressures can and do vary and dangerous conditions can and do exist.

You are risking serious damage to your valuable original cannon and injury or death yourself shooting bl;ackpowder of which the compostion and burn characteristic are not known. It's prudent to stick with Cannon grade for cannons larger than 1 inch when shooting projectiles.

It's a complex subject and Switlik does a good job of expalining it in his book.

Will Bison · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2007, 08:07:55 AM »

Here is a link to the Mil Spec for BP

http://assist.daps.dla.mil/docimages/A/0000/0000/2047/000000179436_000000177614_KEHKEBDVQX.PDF

It may prove of interest to all concerned.

Bill

cannonmn · « **Reply #5 on:** October 03, 2007, 08:30:51 AM »

I fully agree with use of caution regarding anything other than the familiar commercial grades. However this stuff is already on the market at various black powder suppliers, and a whole lot more will soon be on the market, so the purpose of my post is to keep you informed so you will have some idea of what is being offered when you run into it.

Here's the info I just got from the demil company, that only sells it to dealers with FEL's, I can't get it directly from them.

Class 1 powder: They have lots of Class 1 military powder recovered from 155mm howitzer powder charge ignition pads. The range of sieves for go-no go is #4 to #8. This is the large-to-assorted grain powder I mentioned above. It was sold in the original cloth ignition pads and the people who wanted to use it for blanks did not take the time to remove it from the pads, so its burning was even slower than usual, and did not give enough noise for blank loads. From the application in 8" howitzers, you can see it was designed to produce lots of hot flame, not a quick pop, in order to get the very large grains of smokeless powder going in the howitzer.

Class 3 powder: They did have Class 3 powder which was in fact from the 81mm expulsion charges. The reports I got from one powder dealer in my area were that this powder worked very well for shooting (sorry I don't yet know for shooting what) and was fully as consistent as any commercial grade his customers had tried. All of their class 3 powder is committed at this time.

Class 2 powder: They have a contract to take apart 16" naval gun propellant bags which have a lot of Class 2 black powder in a large pad. This class 2 powder has go, no-go limits of #6 and #12 screen. I haven't looked that up to see what the commercial equivalent might be. This powder will be available to qualified dealers next spring. I am hoping it will have burning characteristics similar to Cannon grade powder.

Again, caution, I do not recommend the use of any non-commercial powder, I'm just telling you what's on the market and what's on the way so you will be better-informed.

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** October 03, 2007, 08:50:30 AM »

Thanks for reassuring us.

I am a bit concerened about the FFL requirement, why?

cannonmn · « **Reply #7 on:** October 03, 2007, 10:00:47 AM »

>I am a bit concerened about the FFL requirement, why?

Hi, you probably looked at "FEL" in my post and thought I meant FFL. The demil company only sells in lots of let's say 3000 lbs. minimum. Since as I understand US law, a US citizen can only buy and transport up to 50 lbs. of black powder without special paperwork, licenses, etc. the demil company only deals with holders of Federal Explosives Licenses (FEL.) who can legally buy the 3000 lb. minimum lots.

For retail sales from your local black powder dealer, once he has the stuff, it would be business as usual.

Hope that clears it up.

Evil Dog · « **Reply #8 on:** October 03, 2007, 04:33:01 PM »

3000 pound minimum? Hmm... guess that pretty much eliminates me.

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** October 03, 2007, 06:08:16 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on October 03, 2007, 10:00:47 AM

>I am a bit concerened about the FFL requirement, why?

Hi, you probably looked at "FEL" in my post and thought I meant FFL. Hope that clears it up.

Humm, I suppose if I cleaned my glasses once in a while....

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2007, 09:49:14 PM »

I can't remember if I mentioned anything about prices. The demil company wholesales the Class 1 powder to FEL dealers for $2. per pound, and the one retailer I know who has it resells it for $4.50 a pound. This is the stuff that comes sewn into cloth pads, and apparently is a bit labor-intensive to get out of the cloth pads.

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2007, 11:41:09 PM »

Things to check--screen size and specific composition. Don't go smaller than screen size of Cannon grade and make sure the powder uses potassium nitrate and not sodium nitrate.

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2007, 02:45:53 AM »

I'm almost positive any of the military stuff that can be traced to ignition pads, primers, or expulsion charges, that is labeled "black powder" of one class or another by the military, is potassium-nitrate-based, but the composition is a fair question to ask anyone offering you black powder.

The sodium nitrate based stuff is called "blasting powder" and the grains are rough like crushed gravel.
I've had 2FA "blasting powder" here that's sodium-nitrate-based, we did try it in larger cannons as blank charges, but it is verrrry slow burning and as I recall it didn't work well for us. I'm not aware of any particular danger in using it other than it doesn't do much and I think I wasted my money on it. No one that I know of tries to use it to propel projectiles, it is not considered acceptable for that. If anyone has more info, let us know please.

The grain size on the military powders, again, are not uniform, but consist of a range of grain sizes that screen as I indicated above. If anyone knows the screen size specs for commercial "cannon" grade powder, post it here, and we can compare the military powders to it.

cannonmn · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2007, 03:40:15 PM »

What I put in post no. 5 was info I got only from the wholesaler who of course has an interest in moving his product.

Today I talked to a shooter who also sells black powder. He had experience with both the very large-grained "class 1" powder that comes in cloth pads, and the finer-grained "class 3" powder. He showed me one of the pads which was clearly marked for 155mm, not 8" as the wholesaler had said. It was also marked "class 1-A" to indicate the type of powder in it. They also had some of the much smaller-grained "class 3" military powder. They sold the quantity of both types they had to reenactors for noise-making. It's hard for me to tell if it worked for that or not since I have to interpret what one guy thinks he heard from another.

They tried some of the "class 3" powder for mortar firing and the ranges they got were inconsistent. The sample he showed me looked about like Goex FG granulation.

Bottom line is that the surplus military powder may be attractive to some reenactors who want to save money, but I haven't yet found any actual shooter who says it is good for accurate shooting of projectiles from cannons or mortars.

Cannon caster · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2007, 08:34:23 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on October 04, 2007, 02:45:53 AM

The sodium nitrate based stuff is called "blasting powder" and the grains are rough like crushed gravel.
I've had 2FA "blasting powder" here that's sodium-nitrate-based, we did try it in larger cannons as blank charges, but it is verrrry slow burning and as I recall it didn't work well for us. I'm not aware of any particular danger in using it other than it doesn't do much and I think I wasted my money on it. No one that I know of tries to use it to propel projectiles, it is not considered acceptable for that. If anyone has more info, let us know please.

Sodium nitrate powder can work if it is fine enough. I have used it many times (I can easily make sodium nitrate but not potassium nitrate). I used it in a small 18 mm cannon firing a 12 mm metal ball.

cannonmn · « **Reply #15 on:** October 05, 2007, 02:52:28 PM »

Happiness is having enough powder.

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2007, 03:42:06 PM »

I've used some this year for re-enacting noise . Found to be hotter than Blasting FA , gives nice crisp report for the buck. However wouldn't recommend for shooting . This powder came from cloth red primerpad of 155 rds and can be 25+ years old , stored who knows how . Some pads were half rotted , This powder was made by the government Charleston plant , run by du Pont or ICI. for the Vietnam War.Would love to get few hundred more pounds if it becomes available.

Edited by moderator See following post. You can alway edit you post by clicking on the button that says modify.

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2007, 03:44:20 PM »

Just read my post missed the "n'T " in wouldn't recommend .

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** October 05, 2007, 04:21:26 PM »

You should be able to edit your post by clicking on the weird diamond-with-a-cartridge-at-the-lower-right icon at the lower right and just making the corrections and submitting it again.

Evil Dog · « **Reply #19 on:** October 06, 2007, 05:10:41 AM »

Cannonmn... I think the local fire folk might get a little upset should I have that much powder out in my backyard shed.... and I don't think the wife would want it in the back bedroom storage closet either.

Articifer Tom · « **Reply #20 on:** October 06, 2007, 01:19:31 PM »

Thanks for the EDIT info . Didn't know you could do that .
Ya few hundred in one location is a little risky . We usually split it among the members and try to get it wrapped in to rounds for storage in the gun trailers .

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** October 06, 2007, 02:15:25 PM »

I wish I had that much powder. I thought that picture would impress ya. Not mine unfortunately.

cannonmn · « **Reply #22 on:** October 12, 2007, 04:30:27 PM »

Today a friend of mine shot several rounds from his repro 20-pounder Parrott rifle, using duplex black powder charges. Duplex means two different kinds of propellant. In this case, he first loaded one pound of Goex FG, then a separate bag containing two pounds of the 155mm ignitor powder taken by slitting open many of the ignitor bags. He was firing projectiles of the usual weight for that weapon. He always fires using 3-pound projectiles. He said the rounds worked just as if he had used FG and Cannon grade. He always loads a 1-pound "priming" charge in first, using finer powder than the main charge.

The only difference he noticed between firing cannon-grade and the 155mm black ignition powder was a difference in tne smell of the smoke.

I don't yet have all the details on projectile weight, etc. but I'll ask him tomorrow.

Note that I am reporting what happened, not recommending that anyone else do this, since all cannons and circumstances are different. This gunner has been shooting a 20 pr. Parrott repro for probably 20 years. He is on his second gun, the first one failed a couple of years ago.