Who came up with this??

[Spanky]

I'm not trying to open up any can of worms or anything but who came up with the 1000 ft./lb. minimum energy "standard" for whitetail deer?? How many deer have fallen to pistol cartridges developed 100 years ago?? I might be wrong but I dont think a 25-20 or a 32-20 or a 44-40 for that matter develop this "standard" but everything up to and including buffalo (44-40) was put down with them. And certainly we all know that many a deer has fallen to a .22 rimfire. Like I said, I dont want to get anything started but I am curious.

Spanky

[trotterlg]

I don't have the exact origion but my guess is that it was one of the "expert" gun mag writers needing to sell an advertisers new magnum chambered rifle.  Larry

[Ireload2]

1000 ft pounds of energy at 100 yards is an energy requirement in some western states to hunt big game.
It keeps people from trying to take elk and other species with 25/20s, 32/20s , 30 Carbines, many pistol cartridges and other rounds that are not really fit to hunt those animals.

Still it does not stop bone heads from trying to shoot elk at ranges where their 300 Magnum has less power than a 30-30.

Check page 7  Manner of Take
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/6E977561-C613-466D-BCFC-2CA9C9C91CD9/0/Ch02.pdf

If you had the job of making the rules for the general public what would be your minimum cartridge requirement for hunting whitetail?
Bear in mind that you are interested in a humane kill of hundreds of thousands of big game animals.

[mitchell]

I don't have the exact origion but my guess is that it was one of the "expert" gun mag writers needing to sell an advertisers new magnum chambered rifle.  Larry

here here!!!

they got to sell guns some how.

we all know the truth that small gun can kill deer just fine, just don't get stupid with it, all those deer that have died from a 22lr that you were talking about, i'll be willing to bet that most got shot between the eyes

[PHATINJUN]

I don't have the reg's here in front of me but I think the  pistol standard here in Illinois is something like 500 ft lb.at muzzle and really only 2 bottle neck cartridges below the 1.4 inch limit 300 whisper and the 30 Bellem plus they must be factory availible with published load data no rifles any where in Illinois. Kurt

[quickdtoo]

The 1000 ft/lbs energy level was Col Townsend Whelen's theory of the minimum energy level required for deer.

Tim

http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/hunting/biggame/article/0,13199,197344,00.html

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame/
Bullet Energy
Since I'm not Karamoja Bell, I can't overlook the basic requirements of bullet energy. No one can say how much, but Colonel Townsend Whelen was an awfully smart man, and I'm willing to accept his theory of 1,000 ft-lbs. at the game.


http://www.huntingmag.com/big_game/right_rifle/index.html
Col. Townsend Whelen's old theory about proper deer cartridges delivering 1,000 ft.-lbs. of energy is hard to prove or disprove. Shot placement and bullet performance are perhaps more important, but I've always thought it a sensible standard for normal-size deer.

[Mac11700]

Good points all...Deer can be taken humanely with smaller calibers than what is being considered...but...that ain't the problem folks...The favorite word used is humanely...but it goes further than that...the word responsible has to be used as well...The 22 magnum has long been the favorite poachers weapon...and mitchell is quite correct...they are used by "shining " for eyes with a spot light...Does this make it responsible humane kill...Do you want to be associated with poachers...Of course not...even though we all could kill a deer with one...we don't...namely because we are all responsible hunters...not a bunch of poachers... and if made legal to use...then there would be many people wounding deer with them...by trying to shoot them in the body...

The long held belief that there is a magic ft.lbs. of energy "needed" to kill a deer is not true in actual fact...but..as a deterrent for the irresponsible hunters that have been the bane of all of us who take pride in our hunting heritage...Looking at it from the whole perspective...there is more to this accepted rule...than just the math...and many arguments generally appear either before or after a discussion such as this... and they start by asking ..." How far is too far.." .." Is it ethical "

We all have the responsibility to humanely take what ever animal we hunt...at what ever yardage we shoot...and bringing unneeded pain and suffering by giving long agonizing deaths is against human nature...and against any civilized nations rules...Unfortunately...there are a lot of ignorant and stupid people in the world...and it's up to us to help educate them correctly...The sad truth is there are more wounded deer done by hunters at normal ranges than at long distances...and this fact can be confirmed at any local conservation office...Slob hunters...poachers...these are 2 names we don't want to be associated with..and we have to over come the ignorance of the non-hunting public...We have to be ready to show we know what we are doing when going hunting...not just guessing...We have to know what the bullet will do...and at what velocity it does what the manufactures have designed it to work properly...We have to be proficient at shooting...no matter the distance...There is a lot more to being a responsible hunter...than just grabbing a gun and going out to kill a deer...

Mac

[Coastwatcher]

I have a cabinet full of .22s, but when I have to put an animal down I take a .30/30.  That is for a range of 5 feet.   Do it once and do it right.

[Spanky]

Mac,

I agree with everything you say and Mitchell is also correct in what he said. I don't want anyone to think that I would shoot a deer with a .22 rimfire. I WOULD NOT! I dont believe in poaching and would turn in anyone that I caught doing it.

That being said, I have shot a deer with my .22 Hornet. The shot was from a solid rest at a standing still broadside deer at 75 yds or so. I made a perfect heart/lung shot and the deer went down. This doesn't mean that I agree with people hunting with .22 centerfires either, it just so happens I saw the deer while hunting coyotes and had the opportunity to make a good shot.

As for MY OWN PERSONAL MINIMUM, I say a .243 is minimum for deer. My regular deer hunting rifle is a Ruger M77 MkII chambered in .35 Whelen. I shoot 250 gr. bullets out of it and am quite confident that it has plenty of energy to hammer a whitetail from just about any angle. In my opinion, my Whelen is a bit overkill to be honest. I have a couple 30-30's that do just as well.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I think shot PLACEMENT is more important than energy.

Most important to me is taking the time to make a good, clean shot and a humane kill. That's all part of being an ethical hunter.


Spanky

[Mac11700]

Spanky:

Folks routinely harvest deer sized animals with with 22 center-fires...on this continent and others...and with the right bullet and with in the right range the Hornet is more than capable of doing it...The problem is educating the people who use it...and similar other  small bore cartridges...the wheres and whens it's appropriate...I hate to say it...but..there are just a bunch of lazy butted people in the world who won't even take the time to practice shooting...let alone find out what bullets to use...Those in charge of setting these "rules" know this too...and as such...make these mandates laws...to safeguard the animals...and to appease those who would outlaw hunting completely.It's guilt by association at it's highest...for a responsible hunter...

Shot placement is important...but there is more to it than just that...You can have a perfect shot with a varmint bullet...that only wounds a deer...not getting thru it's vitals...There has to be enough energy and correct construction of the projectile to do this...and this is why not only the correct bullet placement is important...but also where the yardages the animals are shot matters with some of the antique calibers and smaller bores...To be a responsible hunter...you have to "know"...not guess...and it's takes a lot of time and effort to become one... 

Mac

[Sourdough]

Hay! I seriously think I could knock down a Grizzly with my .17HMR.  One shot right at the base of the ear.  Sure would like to try it, but one problem, it's illegial.  In Alaska you can only hunt big game with centerfire cartridges.  Looking for a .17 Rem.

[Ireload2]

Why bother with legal or illegal? You will not be around to face charges anyway. So save your family the cost of a .17 Rem.

[Spanky]

Yeah right, and the grizzly can use one of those .17's to pick it's teeth afterwards!! 
 


Spanky

[hpdrifter]

Since a puny little ole deer needs 1000, an elk or moose might need 5-6000.

[Mac11700]

Hay! I seriously think I could knock down a Grizzly with my .17HMR. 

I'm not trying to open up any can of worms or anything but who came up with the 1000 ft./lb. minimum energy "standard" for whitetail deer??

That's funny...I thought the discussion was on whitetails...or the equivalent...not dangerous game Go for it Rog...just let me know where to send the flowers ehh...





Mac

[McLernon]

A sharp broad-headed arrow imparts very little of its energy to a deer in making a fatal double lung shot, so for a killing shot energy seems irrelevant.The bullet only needs enough energy to make it to the deer and to poke two holes through the lungs--------------------------and you get a dead deer. Finding it afterwords may prove a challenge depending on the terrain. A spear would do fine too. But it makes sense to set some limit on the amount of energy required. I like the idea of having enough energy in the bullet combined with an appropriate bullet terminal performance to knock the deer down because you can never count on getting a shot at just the right angle to get to the vitals. That is why I have switched this year to a 45-70 from my Bob. We'll see how things work out come deer season up here in the great north.

Mc

[xhare]

Here in KY any centerfire rifle or pistol is legal.  Thats right no limits are placed on cartridge size.  However, buckshot is illegal for deer hunting as are slugs smaller than 20 guage.  So the 25 acp from a 2 inch barreled Baby Colt is legal, but a 12 guage mag load of OOO buck is not.   Go figure.  Further, if I read it correctly, the firearm requirements for Elk are identical for the deer.  One change they made recently is that now no firearms can hold more than 10 rounds.  Previously, only pumps and semi-autos had that restriction.  This now makes long barreled (24 inch)357/44/45colt lever actions illegal since most hold more than 10 rounds in their tubular magazines.  

I dont mind the restrictions they have in place, they just dont jive with some of the other rules.  

[McLernon]

In Southern Ontario we can blast away with a 257 Weatherby mag at coyotes bur can't carry a nice 45 cal bush gun like the 45LC. Must be less than .275 caliber. And our long guns have to be registered like handguns to boot. Nobody wants to change the laws for fear the anti's will get involved and screw things up even worse.

Mc

[McLernon]

I witnessed the harvest of Buffalo at the Triple U ranch in South Dakota some years back. They used 223 FMJ just behind the ear. One shot bang,flop!!!!!!!!!!!

Mc

[GatCat]

I think one of the biggest problems facing wildlife managers is dealing with the public. In states that have a long history of hunting,, are rural, and folks are gun-savy, saying "any center-fre rifle" ( or handgun, if allowed ) is probably fine; people know what works and  what doesn't.
But, ask anyone who has worked at a range during "sight-in" just before hunting season, or anyone who has worked at a gun shop, there are an unfortunate number of "newbies", perhaps well-intentioned, that do not have a clue. Sure, in GOOD HANDS, a .22 will kill most anything, but how many maimed animals run off with broken jaws, wounds that will infect and kill slowly, etc, done by poachers? Ditto for sub-standard calibers in rookie hands. There are only so many harvestible animals out there, and the game regs are trying to insure clean kills. It's a tough balance. I'm sure most all who come on GBO are well above average in knowledge and ability, but the regs are for the public in general, too many of which are not.
Just a a thought.
Mark

[xhare]

I agree that the game officials have it tough.  They want to keep the newbies/morons from using weapons they should not, yet allow those who know what they are doing to use what they want.  Here in KY the deer are not huge so 223s and such are fine, especially on does.  The guy at the slaughter house where I take my deer uses a 223 for head shots only, plus he only goes for does.  He is a meat hunter only.  I am not necessarily an advocate of hunting with buckshot either, to tempting to use it at too great a distance.   Yet as with so many other deer capable rounds, buckshot is devastating at close range.

[PigBoy Crabshaw]

I don't want any newbies/morons out where I'm hunting or anywhere for that matter. I think it's up to all ethical hunters to teach there kids right from wrong. I believe these basic rules to follow are taught in something I learned long ago in a hunter saftey course and the information in each states hunting/fishing regs is clear on what you can and can't use. Common sense is the key here.

[Sourdough]

The state of Alaska does extensive testing on Guns and ammo, Muzzle loaders and projectiles, and archery equipment.  They set up some minimum standards for hunting differant animals.  And after seeing some of their test results, I have to agree with their reasoning.  Don't think I would want to see someone going after Buffalo with a .243.  Yes I think a .17HMR could kill a Grizzly, but I don't have a death wish, so I will never try it.  Plus it's not legal to use Rim Fire for big game.  My own personal openion, that's what .338WM is for.

[hellacatcher]

About the dumbest thing Tenn. came up with is you can hunt deer with any center fire. This would mean a 204 with a V-max would be O.K. Won't say it can't be done I just don't think it is right.

[PartsMan]

I'm not trying to open up any can of worms or anything but who came up with the 1000 ft./lb. minimum energy "standard" for whitetail deer?? How many deer have fallen to pistol cartridges developed 100 years ago?? I might be wrong but I dont think a 25-20 or a 32-20 or a 44-40 for that matter develop this "standard" but everything up to and including buffalo (44-40) was put down with them. And certainly we all know that many a deer has fallen to a .22 rimfire. Like I said, I dont want to get anything started but I am curious.

Spanky

I know of the 1000 foot pound rule and use it as a gudeline myself,
but I think it applies better to modern cartridges shooting "smaller" faster bullets that must open or fragment to do there damage.

You put a .44+ hole in a lung or heart and they will die very soon.

[Mac11700]

Most of us here reload...or want to at least...and it doesn't take much to call the bullet companies and ask them a simple question about any of their bullets......."At what velocity does the bullet fail to open as designed..." Some bullets won't open properly below 800 fps...like the partitions...others like the Sirocco's won't open consistently below 1500-1700 caliber depending..The softer the bullet...or the lower the sectional density it has...the easier it is to open...and the further the range it can be used at...but the flip side to that is the closer you are...the easier it is for the bullet to come apart too...For many of us who reload..it's not really a 1000's ft.lb of energy we are looking at...it's where the bullet stops to function properly...This is the yardage we stop at...

A 223 shooting a varmint bullet isn't a good choice to use on deer...but...move to a bonded bullet or a partition type...and the range of that bullet has been increased greatly for taking whitetail under normal hunting conditions...Is it the cartridge of choice for a raking shot at the south end of a north bound deer...NO...it isn't...Is it the best cartridge to use where your are shooting 400 yards...NO...it isn't...Will it kill a deer at 200 yards with a well placed shot into heart lung region of the animal...YUP...it will...

RESTRAINT....it doesn't matter if you are a seasoned hunter...or just starting out...RESTRAINT...is something all of us must use when hunting...and unfortunately is something a lot of folks... that should know better... loose the minute anything with antlers walks into view... This is one of the things that cause problems and gets animals wounded...

Small calibers or calibers with low ft.lbs. of energy aren't for everyone...They don't meet everyones ideal cartridge criteria for every situation.....but...when used with restraint...can and have cleanly harvest whitetail...on a regular basis...For me...with the 223 ammo I'm using...and the same for my son...any broadside shot from 175-150 yards and in is fair game...which is kind of funny...because it is about 1000ft.lbs. of energy any ways at that distance...Most shots will be well inside that yardage to begin with...but...that is the max yardage that will be used at......We both are very capable of keeping inside 2" at that distance...He has had lots of practice on deer size targets of late...and is confident in his ability...so am I...and we will see how it works out at the end of this month...

Mac

[Flyrodder]

  I am against using 22 center-fires for deer.  not because I, or anyone else can't take a deer humanely with one, but because there are just too many idiots out there who would try to take a quartering-away shot at a deer with a 223.  I know of several people who have done this, even though it is illegal here in WA to use anything smaller than a 243 for big game.  These same people were confused why the deer didn't fall over as if it was struck by lightning.  After all, the 223 dropped the last deer in its tracks (they forget that the last deer was standing broadside).  Besides, I wouldn't want to have to turn down a shot on the buck of a lifetime just because the deer isn't perfectly broadside.  I'll stick with the 260 remington.

[glwenzl]

In Nebraska we have a rule of
1.rifles that deliver at least 900 ft. lbs of energy at 100 yards;
2.handguns that deliver at least 400 ft. lbs of energy at 50 yards
to shoot deer (legally)

I have seen my dad take more deer than the average person will ever shoot with a 22-250 (he luvs that gun) and I have heard of a very ethical hunter shoot one with his 14 caliber (I know what U-R think'n) and have seen others take large Buffalo with a 22-250 behind the ear all bang flop as mentioned earlier....

Then I have *heard* of guys shooting the big mags and deer runs off.... No I am not only just talking about a bad shot either, I am *also* talking about right through the lungs and a 100 yard plus run off... One of which was shot with a BP and punched a 1/2" hole a right through both sides....

Seen this issue argued in many directions before and/or *opened a can of worms* but the bottom line is rules are rules and should be obeyed.... I feel that if it is truly a dumb rule then it should be professionally discussed with the appropriate people and have it changed.....

Myself i don't like anyone dictating to me what to shoot a deer with and if a person(s) does not know what is *ethical* they should have their hunting license revoked and be re-mediated (or something)

FWIW I like using a 7-30 Waters.... Uh well maybe my 257 Roberts... Well then there is the ole 270 that gave me lots of fond memories... Oh yea the super accurate 7mm STW was really neat but the NEF 243 was pretty cool too but it was the 357 Mag in a Ruger GP-100 that has taken the biggest deer so far.... Just too many neat calibers to shoot a deer with...

Who let the worms out???
 

About forgot that old saying which might apply to this thread and bullet energy... *It's better to have and not need than to need and not have*

[Mac11700]

About forgot that old saying which might apply to this thread and bullet energy... *It's better to have and not need than to need and not have*

Opinions is what makes us unique...but...being a pessimistic optimist( plan for the worst...hope for the best...)  isn't always needed under all of the different types of hunting situations...I usually just let the area I am hunting in dictate what caliber I will use... ...I have found that usually works best for me...

[Chilachuck]

Sourdough, do you have a link to the test results you mentioned?