Author Topic: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!  (Read 1507 times)

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Offline BUTCHER45

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.45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« on: October 09, 2007, 03:49:09 AM »
     edit:forgot to say the bullets used on this hunt were made by Mark Whyte of Mark Whyte Leather Works. I used the 250 grain "Big Lube" design bullets in .454 caliber with a .32 Meplat he sent me, made from dead soft lead" http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/

I'm back from the very first Shiloh Ranch Airgun Hunt and let me tell you that I don't feel like shopping around for any other ranches any time soon.  It was awesome.
     I will post more later as I got home a few hours ago at 3am and am ready for a good night's sleep.  I will however say this right now.  Anyone that doubts the capability of a big-bore airgun to take down big game needs to give P&P processing in Oklahoma a call.  Just ask him what he thought about the damage done to the ram I shot with my .45 airgun.
    When I arrived at the end of the weekend to pick up my ram meat he greeted me by saying "now what did you say you shot that ram with again?"  I replied "a .45 caliber airgun".  He just could not fathom an airgun causing such destruction, saying that the ram appeared to have been  shot with a 30-06 producing an area of bloodshot meat on the exit wound that was as big as a pie pan.
    Here is my representative Black-Bellied Barbados Ram.  I felt no need to measure the horns as he is a trophy no matter what in my mind.  His skull will be plated in pewter with his cape hanging below on the wall.

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Offline Questor

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 05:02:58 AM »
Cool! Thanks for sharing!

By the way, we like those rams best as ground meat. They make the best hamburgers if you fry them at medium low heat in a bit of olive oil and season the meat just with salt and pepper. I've never had such good hamburger.
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Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 06:32:34 AM »
      Thanks for the info, Questor!  I got four wrapped tubes of ground, six steaks and a tenderloin sitting in the freezer and am goint to have a Barbecue here in the next day or two.  Fried Burgers and barbecue Steaks it is!


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Offline Questor

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 07:24:39 AM »
Mmmm! I can taste it now!

We're going on a sheep hunt in March and can't wait. It'll be my son's first.

One other culinary tip that's easy to do: We found that "Kraft Greek Vinaigrette" salad dressing makes a great all purpose marinade for grilling. We generally make our own marinades, but this stuff is very, very good. Try it and you'll probably keep it on hand. We use it mostly for grilling. It makes a good salad dressing too.

We just coat the meat with it and let it sit for a little while, then brush some more on a couple of times during grilling.

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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 11:28:21 AM »
I'm just curious, is an air rifle a legal hunting arm? I don't have a clue on this and am just wondering.
thanks,
Jim
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IF GOD DIDN'T WANT US TO EAT ANIMALS, WHY DID HE MAKE THEM OUT OF MEAT?

Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 12:03:38 PM »
     I am glad you asked.  If you are thinking it, others surely are as well I'm sure.

     You can rest assured that I do not violate ANY hunting laws at any time in any place.  I'm kind of a stickler on that one ;).  Not only because it is wrong but because I work so hard at bringing awareness of these airguns as legitimate hunting tools to the hunting community.  It is my responsibility to the airguns to "act right".
     
     The air rifle is indeed legal to hunt native big-game in a couple of states so far (Missouri and Kentucky being two, I believe) and has seen great success.  This hunt took place on a private ranch in Oklahoma.  The quarry was exotic deer, rams, and wild hogs; all of which do not fall under fish and game regulations as they are non-native species (in the case of the deer and rams) or invasive predators like the hogs which are also not regulated by Fish and Game in the state of Oklahoma.  I believe the only requirement for hunting hogs on public land is that you may be required to have a hunting license.  On private land it is not required.

     
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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2007, 01:01:30 PM »
Thanks for the reply, that's very interesting.
GBO SENIOR MEMBER "IF THAT BALL COMES IN MY YARD I'M KEEPING IT!"

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IF GOD DIDN'T WANT US TO EAT ANIMALS, WHY DID HE MAKE THEM OUT OF MEAT?

Offline Chris

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2007, 06:06:03 PM »
WOW...that's sure isn't your Dad's BB now gun is it?   :o

Contgrats!

...Chris
"An intellectual is a man who doesn't know how to park a bike!" Spiro Agnew

Offline Questor

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 04:28:29 AM »
State game laws vary, but if your hunting on a private preserve, then you can use just about anything the owners will let you use. Outside preserves, one looks to other hunters who use unusual weapons. The method is to read the laws and interpret them so that if the weapon is not forbidden, then go ahead and use it. Just don't advertise that you're using it.
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Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 11:32:15 AM »
Outside preserves, one looks to other hunters who use unusual weapons. The method is to read the laws and interpret them so that if the weapon is not forbidden, then go ahead and use it. Just don't advertise that you're using it.


     I really don't mean to stir the pot here but I must say that I totally dis-agree with this statement 100%.  When you are speaking to the game warden as he approaches you dragging your kill from the woods he will not be interested in whatever it is you and your buddies "interpreted" to be OK.  It is not worth losing your right ( and possibly the rights of all others wanting to use the same type weapon) to hunt and is just wrong to begin with.  It is always best to ask your Fish and Game department as that is always the bottom line.
     If the use of a certain design of weapon is truly a fair and effective method to harvest game, it is better to specify it as legal than have the F&G come across it in a bad light.  That could possibly lead to that department making them expressly illegal which would undermine further efforts to make them legal.
     I am working hard to get my states fish and game department to recognize these big-bore air rifles as legitimate hunting tools to harvest big game animals with.  I would like their first experiences with these fine rifles to be with law-abiding citizens.  Big-Bore Air Rifles were used in my region centuries ago and have historical value here as Lewis and Clark brought a .32 caliber air rifle with them on their journey; both as a back-up in case their powder got wet and also to impress the natives.  This is not heresay as it is very well documented.
http://www.bigboreairguns.com/antiquebigborescover.jpg
     I know of two folks, (one in Kentucky, the other in Missouri I believe) that did it the right way,  Approaching their respective states with documented airgun hunt reports and I think video as well.   Now, by definition, muzzle-loading air rifles are in the Fish and Game regulations as legal for big game in those states.  Way to go, guys!!

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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 11:54:50 AM »
I have to agree with you butcher45, just because the law doesn't say it is illegal to tie a knife to a stick and jump out of a tree on a deers back, I don't want to try to explain to dnr why I think it should be knife on a stick season.
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Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 01:02:18 PM »
I have to agree with you butcher45, just because the law doesn't say it is illegal to tie a knife to a stick and jump out of a tree on a deers back, I don't want to try to explain to dnr why I think it should be knife on a stick season.

!!!Knife on a stick season!!!  That was to funny!!! :D :D :D
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Offline kennisondan

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 05:02:38 PM »
that is the most fascinating air gun I have seen or read about.. I started reading about air guns in england and how good some of them are, and got interested then lost the thread... I have read a bit on the air gun site here and it is really cool
I agree that you have to get awareness up and make the right approach..
what most people do not know is that an air gun has some noise and kick associated with it, it is not an absolutely silent killer ...  is it.. ?

congrats on the unique gun and the kill I am most impressed..
dk
ps : I gues then ther is no knife on a stick season after all. ???bummer.
dk

Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2007, 10:57:08 AM »
Butcher45.....what is that 250 grainer's fps and estimated energy btw? And trajectory info if you got any?

...TM7

     Here is a link to a ballistic calculator that will tell you all about the trajectory of this load and also another that is going to be my standard projectile.  It will also tell you about your pellet/rifle combination, too.
     In the box on the top left put SWC/HPType, .454, and 250 grains then press calculate.  In the main box type 650fps, sight-in at 35 yards (my personal range limit is 50 yards), a 1.65 inch sight height, intervals 5 yards and maximum range 100 yards. It will tell you the fpe/bullet rise-drop/ a lot of other stuff every 5 yards.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

     I hit this ram at no more than 15 yards. I have to say I feel with this bullet design and the remaining energy this pellet/air rifle combination produces at range, assuming the same shot placement, he would have been just as dead at 100 yards as he was at 15. Though for shooting at such a long distance (not me) you would want to zero this combination for more like 65 yards.
     I decided to error on the side of caution and use a 250grain bullet rather than the 210grainer with the same meplat size and design to ensure a nice pass-through.  I think that the 210grainer at around 750+fps could do the job just as nicely if not better on thin-skinned game, possibly producing an even larger wound channel.  But I like the 250 grainer and will stick with it I think.
     I feel the large meplat this bullet had to offer along with it being made of dead-soft lead was paramount in it's success at this bullet weight, size, and velocity.

http://www.handloads.com/calc
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Offline Casull

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 06:54:38 AM »
I'm just curious, but why would a soft lead slug traveling at such a slow velocity cause so much blood shot meat?  Seems to run counter to everything we all know about low velocity rounds.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2007, 08:02:47 AM »
I'm just curious, but why would a soft lead slug traveling at such a slow velocity cause so much blood shot meat?  Seems to run counter to everything we all know about low velocity rounds.

     Good question, Casull.  I guess we don't all know as much as we think.  I certainly did not expect such dramatic results myself.  I give full credit to the meplat and the wide-flat-nose type design making as much use of the limited energy as possible.
     This is my best guess as to where the boat got missed.  The following are just ideas.
     The thing is, projectiles have always been engineered around firearms.  Firing the best bullet material made for thin-skinned game (dead-soft-lead) using combusting powder will foul your barrel fast (a problem airguns do not have!) so the whole jacketed bullet thing came into effect.  This brought about bullets being designed to make use of a projectile that requires much more energy to function in a killing fashion.
     From my experience with this ram, I can honestly say that the huge amounts of FPE in centerfire rifles isn't there to kill the game.  It is there (for the most part) because the jacketed bullet designs require the energy to make them kill.
     A fat chunk of dead-soft lead doesn't require nearly as much energy to operate as designed.  For dangerous game a truly hard-cast bullet is  a common one for handguns like the Casul.
     Just running off thoughts to build a discussion.
     I say this because the energy behind the 250 grainer with a .32 meplat on impact amounted to 230foot pounds of energy.  I will be trying the same shot on another ram in the future using the 210grainer going 750+fps of the same WFN design to see what less bullet and more speed will do.   
     Is it possible that in the quest for more and more foot-pounds of energy to sell ammunition and rifles for new cartridges, we have missed the boat on what is doing the killing and how?
     I don't remember the last time I heard "cause of death; kinetic energy".  Sure SOMETIMES the energy is deposited and kills the animal with it, but other times the energy goes right through with the bullet and they will run far.  Not a reliable design I'd say.
     The soft-lead bullet appears to do it job faster than a hard one in a thin-skinned animal and the lower velocity; I don't know, maybe it is giving the bullet more time to do it's thing in there (LOL). 
     Just throwing thoughts out there for discussion.  I am constantly doing research on projectile design which has lead me to my coyote round which hopefully, with proper shot placement, not create an exit wound on the hide.
     Here is a test using a dead-soft lead Devastator hollow point that to an extent proves my point.  hopefully the best round for harvesting fur for tanning and such.  Try this with a jacketed bullet at this low-velocity! 

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Offline Casull

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2007, 10:12:59 AM »
Butcher45, you make some good points regarding "killing energy".  But, I am really surprised by the bloodshot meat you described.  I remember a lot of the old timers talking about how the 45/70, .35 Remington and others of the big bullet, low velocity school of thought talked about being able to "eat right up to the hole".  That's why I was so surprised by your result, given that the velocity was even lower (especially since rounds like the old 45/70, not the newer hotter loadings, used soft lead projectiles).  Anyway, I guess we just live and learn.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline BUTCHER45

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Re: .45 Airgun Downs Ram with Authority!!
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2007, 10:34:34 AM »
     The bullet must have hit the shoulder-bone and really done something spectacular with it I suppose.  I immediately thought of Elmer Keith's old quote "you could eat that bullet hole" and saw that it didn't apply to this one.  I am going to go after a fallow doe next time as well except I will do my best to put a heart-shot on her that avoids both shoulders.  Don't want to waste any of that meat!
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