Chamber adapters / barrel inserts

[Cui_Bono]

Hello,

I've posted these questions on savage24.com:

Does anyone use adapters .223 to .22WMR or .22LR?
what are your experiences with those adapters?
How does is work centerfire -> rimfire?
How easy is it to eject the used case?
Is it a glue-in solution or can the calibers be switches easily?

Yellowknifedave replied and shared his (very discouraging) experiences with the accuracy. I did *a lot* of research on the internet and people seem to be quite happy with adapters for the .30-family.

I am thinking of a 12ga/.223 combo (Savage 24F or SPR94) as a platform to shoot also .22WMR, .22LR and 20ga (and maybe .410). I imagine this would give me a vast range of calibers with just one gun and a fanny pack. I don't want to have more than one or two guns and I want guns that are rugged companions for hunting deer in very rough terrain, swamps and bad weather with the option to downsize for small game.

A .22LR is mandatory for me (an insert barrel would be perfectly acceptable) and I need the option to shoot rimfire due to regulations here that don't always allow centrefire.

What are your ideas, experiences and suggestions? Do I ask for too much and should go for two combos, a 12ga/30-06 and a 20ga/.22xx?

Cui

[kingj]

I have a SPR94 in 12x223 I have a  28 gauge insert that I use in it.
Have not tried an adapter in the 223.
I have not heard too many good reports on 22 adapters

[Drilling Man]

  I have an old savage insert bbl that you slide into a 12ga. and it allows you to shoot 410's in it.  I've shot a lot of squirrels with it over the years and it did the job.  I haven't used it in years.

  I also have another Savage insert bbl that allows you to fire 20ga. in a 12ga.  (i think?)

  I have a couple insert sub "chamber liners" (made in my shop) that i can slide into my 16ga. drilling that allows me to shoot 20ga. ammo.  They also work well, but i've only used them on grouse at close range and on clay birds.

  I have a slide in bbl that turns a 12ga. into a 45/70 that works pretty well...

  I've owned and still own Krieghoff insert bbls in 22lr and 22 Win. Mag., that slide into shot bbls and allow you to shoot rim fire ammo in them.  These are precision inserts and are expensive, but are of top quality and shoot excelent!  They shoot as well as any decent 22 rifle...

  As for sub chambers, i've used a lot of different ones over the years and to me they seem to be hit or miss....  Meaning that sometimes they work OK, but they really are for short range use.  I still have a lot of different ones around, but i don't ever seem to use them any longer...

  The way the .223 to 22lr work is, you have to put the 22 in the adapter, then push a "center fire to rim fire" plug in after it.  Then after fireing the 22, you extract the adapter from the gun, and push the spent shell and plug out backwards out of the adapter.  To shoot again, you start all over again...  The adapter really looks like a hollow .223 case.

  By far, the "best" of any of them are the Krieghoff insert bbls!!  They are really accurate and usefull!!

  DM

[pastorp]

Cui Bono, I experimented with shotgun chamber inserts in a 16 ga once. The 28ga one I bought worked very well but the 410 was not satisfactory.

 Based on that experience I would say you could go down 2 gages with the chamber inserts but would need the barrel inserts if you reduced it futher.

I have no experience with rifle inserts. Byron

[canon6]

My wife has a chamber insert for her 223 Handi,it is in 22lr. As for accuracy it is minute of small furry critters at reasonable ranges.I got it from MCA sports Anchorage Ak,just google MCA    hth   Doug

[dpastordan]

MCA is a good source for inserts.  A few years back I purchased their inserts so I could use .22lr in a .22 Magnum (I have an EAA .22M/20gauge).  I also purchased a .30-30 insert for a 20 gauge barrel.  I have a also have a single shot 20 slug gun - so I tried the insert and it shoots 2" to the left of the slugs at 50 yards. 

[Cui_Bono]

Thank you all for your contribution.

My demand is: A deer rifle with a shotgun for buckshot, a small game rifle with a small game shotgun, a .22LR (cheap practising + legal demands while trapping in my state) and a shotgun/rifle combo for coyote hunting. I life in New England, so the typical distance for deer is less than 50 yards (I hunt them with a bow at a distance of 20 yards), small game less than 30 yards (so far hunting them with an airgun) and coyote less than 100 yards, maybe a little bit more.

As a humble person who is very much into experimenting with technical things and who thinks that one gun with one shot is all you need, I figured out this solution:
The 12/30-30 "as is" with a LeveRevolution or hand loaded should do the job for deer in the brush and in the open field.
The 12/30-30 with a sub caliber insert in .32 ACP and a 20ga (or .410) insert / .22WMR insert in the 12ga could be a small game combo or double rifle
The 12/30-30 with a sub caliber insert in .30 Carbine (<100 yards)  or just it's 30-30 and a 20ga insert could be a coyote combo
The 12/30-30 with an insert barrel in .22 WMR and / or .22LR could be good for target practizing, the short .22WMR insert barrel plus an adapter to .22LR could cover the legal requirement while trapping
Another insert barrel in 375 or 444 could make a double rifle for black bear, moose and larger.

This would basically be a 24F with three holes in the stock, one for the 10" insert in .22WMR, one or the 12/20ga adapter and one for the 12/.410 adapter. The insert barrel in 375 or 444 would only be in the backpack on special occasions and a fine, long insert for .22LR would be the option for the trip to the indoor range.

A Krieghoff insert would be nice, but I didn't find a source or a price, not even on the German website. I found the MCA site but those guys seem to be too busy to answer silly questions about their stuff.

I am also willing to try different adapters or to make chamber adapters myself (not a complete insert barrel, I don't have access to machinery of that kind). See my future combo as a tool for making distant holes in combination with an ongoing project.

My idea of accuracy: The vital area of a deer or a coyote in less than 200 yards in the field with the 30-30, the head of a squirrel in 50 yards with an adapter / insert barrel and somewhat in the MOA range with a decent insert barrel in .22LR or .22 WMR on the range for having fun up to 200 yards.

Does anyone know if the 24F will be available with the Accutrigger? I dry fired several 24F at my local gun dealer and the trigger did not impress me (compared to an Accutrigger or a Thompson Center).

I have to admit that I grew up in a part of this world where you don't have the right to own a gun, so far my only firearm is a T/C muzzleloader. Does this all make sense or is this all a pipe dream of someone who has no idea?

Thank you for any input.

[Drilling Man]

Does this all make sense or is this all a pipe dream of someone who has no idea?

  I'm thinking your asking too much out of most of what you listed...  I think your first disappointment will be trying to get a Savage combo gun to shoot "both" bbls to the sights!  And then it will go down hill from there...  lol

  DM

[Cui_Bono]

I think you are right. The idea was using the sights for the shot barrel and the scope for the rifle barrel.

I thought about creating a table about how many clicks the scope has to be adjusted for sub calibers from the rifle barrel. A mil-dot scope might help a little bit if the point of impact isn't too far off?

I know that I get what I pay for and if I want both barrels shooting into the same direction I'd have to buy a German or other European combo.

Do you know what the price is for Krieghoff insert barrels, how long they are and where to buy them in the US?

[Drilling Man]

I think you are right. The idea was using the sights for the shot barrel and the scope for the rifle barrel.

I thought about creating a table about how many clicks the scope has to be adjusted for sub calibers from the rifle barrel. A mil-dot scope might help a little bit if the point of impact isn't too far off?

I know that I get what I pay for and if I want both barrels shooting into the same direction I'd have to buy a German or other European combo.

Do you know what the price is for Krieghoff insert barrels, how long they are and where to buy them in the US?

  I think all of us who love combo guns have been through this a time or two...  For target shooting most can put up with anything, but when it comes to hunting, dealing with 2 bbls that shoot in different places is a total PITA!  This is why many make the gradual move up to better designed guns like the Valmet 412.  If you can live with a single trigger, little less versatility and durability, then a Savage 2400 will do..  (2400's were made by Valmet)

  Trying to figure out where "this" sub chamber hits, and how much to turn my scope up and where's my chart to figure it all out is pretty much impossible in a hunting situation...  It will be a nightmare before you are done, so this is why everyone says the same thing...  Subchambers are for short ranges, like 25 yards. (if your lucky)

  I'm sorry to say i don't know what an Krieghoff insert bbl cost today, but i'm sure they are expensive.  I use to sell them for under a hundred bucks!!!  I sure wish i had kept more of them for myself!!  Keep in mind, these things shoot like a decent bolt action rifle and they are low production so that = high cost!

  They come in two lengths, short and long.  Short is about 7" and long about 12"..  (i don't have one handy to measure)

  They should be "fit" in the bbl they will be used in the first time around, as they can be "ajusted in" to the sights, NOT the sights ajusted to them!  Also the "fitter" will knotch your "extractor" so the insert goes in exactly the same way every time.  this insures that they will shoot to your sights no matter how many times they are installed or removed...

  They will last a lifetime, so i think they are worth paying more for!

  DM

[northwolf]

The latest "FRANKONIA" catalogue lists the "Einsteckläufe" barrel inserts from about 700 Euros for 22Lfb to 1000Euros for 9.3X74 and a "Fangschussgeber" in .38Special 65 Euros all for 12Gauge. PLUS more Euros for regulating and testfiring! (1 Euro is about $1.45)

The problem with shotgun inserts is that regular shotguns can't handle the high pressure of the rifle cartridge inserts.
I have a Brno O/U in 12Gauge/30-06. This gun would be able to handle the pressure like any GOOD O/U or Drilling. I have a .38Special for the 12 and I have an insert for the 30-06 for a 32Special.
For the price of a "Einstecklauf" you could buy 2 guns!! The only advantage I can see for it would be
a) two fast shots of the same caliber
b) if you are limited to one gun (i.e. a Drilling in 12/12/9.3X74 and you get a 223 barrel for small game)

There are also inserts for Handguns i.e. 22Lfb in a .357Mag, 44Mag etc.

Happy New Year!!

Wolf

[45LCshoooter]

Not trying to fame, but i have to ask how understanding will the game warden be when he sees a shotgun barrel attached to the acceptable rimfire that you are carrying? Simply out of concern for compliance, you may be forced to use a switch-barrel instead of a real combination gun.

[no guns here]

Yep, that Frankonia-Jagd is pricey.  One of the most expensive hunting stores I've ever been in.  I go down town once or twice a year and look around and drool...  I make sure my wife goes with me to keep me from doing anything stupid!  For more affordable einstecklauf's try www.egun.de . You can search for some on there.  Kreighoff isn't the only quality maker.  There are others.  A buddy of mine has one in his drilling and he shoots .22 Hornet into about 2-3 inches at 100 from the bench.  Of course you can't do this too fast.  Those things are small and thin and heat up fast!  Of course that isn't what they were made for.  Here in Germany we hunt several types of game at once and this gives you an advantage on the stand.  You have a shotgun barrel, a small rifle barrel and a larger rifle barrel ready to go all at the same time.  That lets you be selective on boar, roe deer, hare, badger, red deer, sika deer or whatever else might walk out.  Personally I have found that I really want a drilling.  The .308 is fine on bigger stuff but they tend to blow up the hares even when I try head shots...


ngh