NEF Handi 243 or Savage/Steven 243

[jakes10mm]

I'm starting the search for a 243 for my two sons.  They say they want to move beyond their 22lr rifles and try centerfire.  I have been debating three options:  NEF Handi-Rifle, Stevens 200, or used Savage 110.  I'm comfortable around a little stock modification to size it for the kids.  As far as accuracy, I'm thinking the Savage/Stevens will deliver a little more than the Handi.  I also like the ease of barrel swapping on the Savage/Stevens; I've already taken a Savage Long Action to create a 260 Remington.  Hence, I'm leaning towards the bolt action and would like to hear the "case" for a Handi instead. 

[cascadedad]

What are they going to use it for?  Just paper, hunting in a blind, hiking/hunting?

[Mac11700]

OK...I'll give you my opinion...and I am quite sure those Savage luvers will not like it...

I've owned a few of the Savages...and simply do not like them...To me...they are the most over rated rifle on the market...accuracy wise...in standard big game hunting calibers and value wise for any type of trade in on a different model......I have handled dozens of the cheaper Stevens rifles...and found way too many serious issues with them to ever want to buy one...I have had 110's in 30-06 and 10FP in 308...While many swear by their accuracy...I will put all of what I have in my Handi's up against them any day of the week in the same calibers......Changing barrels out on them might be easy for some...but...for a young person...all you need is a Phillips screw driver for the Handi...The triggers can be worked down to a nice clean 2-3 lb let off...and it's a 1 pc trigger...not one where you have to depress a safety in it...Granted...on a Handi it does have to be pulled all the way thru...but this is only a problem for some while shooting on the bench...there is an easy way of doing it for serious bench work...but not a problem in most hunting situations...These rifles are designed as hunting rifles..not bench guns...even though my accuracy rivals most other higher priced ones in the hunting calibers...

Most of the stocks on a Savage have to be extensively re-worked...or replaced...On a Handi...a little sanding is usually all that is required...and one can go a bit further with some RTV silicon if they want...this will make them stable enough to be shot off the forearm just like any other rifle...The laminates offered for the Handi are excellent for doing this...and at a very reasonable price...so to are the varmint stocks that you can purchase...all at a tremendous savings over what you will have to spend for like products for the Savage...

Now...in some of the varmint calibers...like the 220 Swift or 22-250...the Savages can and usually are excellent...and when making a repeating dedicated long range varmint gun..is where they shine brightly...and so too for making a dedicated target gun...or wanting a magnum caliber...or a caliber not offered in a Handi...but...there are ways around getting some calibers not offered...and price wise is about the same as what you will have to spend for a like barreled Savage...With the magnums...you will need to go with the Savage or other brand...A bolt gun is what you should build for these applications IMHO.....but...for a light weight all around big game single shot rifle...The Handi rifles are the way to go...They offer a wide variety of calibers that will cover 99% of the hunting here in the lower 48...Making a dedicated bolt gun...I wouldn't waste my time on the Savage actions...not when there are much better actions to work on...While many normally don't look at resale value on them...this is something you should seriously consider...Why invest as much as you will on one...when you can never hope to recoup it...? You have to be very serious about it...and accept the fact you won't get that high of a return...With a Handi...you won't loose hardly at all...all you have to do is to look at the NEF classified section to see this...

I've been doing a lot of swapping and acquiring of different bolt guns this year...and if you have to buy one...invest in one that has a higher resale value...I've found out that even some of the better rifles like the Sako's and Weatherby's don't hold their value as well as Winchesters & Remington's...While you may not be able to switch the barrels out on them as easy as a Savage...how often do you plan on changing them...? If the answer is a-lot...then I would opt for a a much simpler solution and purchase a Ultra NEF...

While the price of the Stevens looks attractive...$ for $ it isn't the same...If you want a good bolt gun...by all means by one...I have nothing against that...but...if you are going to make an investment in one...put your money into a rifle you will get it back on if you need to sell it...

Mac

[bajabill]

Jake,  Perhaps you and I are at opposite ends, both going to the same point.

I have 6 HR barrels and 2 HR frames/stocks.  So I use this platform as a true barrel swapping operation.  I go to the range with more barrels than triggers.  HR is very easy for this.

I also have savage bolt guns and am considering adding savage barrels.  I dont however, want to re-barrel, I want to do the same thing - barrel swapping. But, I know the savage platform is probably going to be a bring one gun to the range.  If I want the other, I have to get that set up ahead of time. 


HR truly give you more than one gun with the extra barrels.  But, with the savage, you only need one scope per gun, with the HR, probably better to have one scope per barrel.  Changing barrels in an HR for the most part does not change you zero - within reason.  This is leading me to now think the savage route will be less costly barrels in the end.

Also, I have always sent my gun into the factory for fitting my extra barrels, many on this board fit their own.  I will however, do the barrel fitting on my savage myself.


Accuracy -  well that is always a crap shoot, but its commonly repeated that savage has good out of the box accuracy.

[jmckinley]

Mac I agree with you and would much rather have a Handi over a Stevens or Savage. My new Handi 308 with Choate stock shot groups than ran from 1 to 11/2 inches groups with Federal 150gr Sp Blue Box ammo. Not bad for a $ 300.00 set up. My 223 will put 5 into a1/2 inch if I can do my part. If will be buying 3 new bolt gun's  in the next few weeks.   Tikka, Weatherby or Remington and a couple of Handi's  to boot. Buy a handi or get one of the rifles I mentioned you'll be better off.   Jess 

[PartsMan]

For a new young shooter you can't beat an open hammer single shot.
Especially when safety is concerned. It will not fire unless the hammer and trigger are back.
You or anyone else can see if the hammer is cocked from quite a ways of.

Plus a single shot will teach them to slow down and take a good shot the first time.

These are the reasons my step dad started me with an old H&R 20 gage years ago.

[guzzijohn]

I have only owned one Handi and it is .243 bull. The best I have yet to get out of it is 2 1/2" at 100 yd. groups and that is with 55gr. Winchester Silver Tips. Most other bullet weights and brands shoot 4-8". I recently bought one of the left handed versions of the Savage 110 combos in .243 with standard barrel. Shoots under an inch with any factory load I have used so far. It generally stays around 3/4". Just my opinion from my experience.
John

[fish280]

i'd go handi but in .30-30, not .243.
it's good to 200 yards, more than enough for most adults, much less young'uns.

[Mac11700]

jm:

Yup...I have been swapping guns around for 1 reason or another...trying to figure out what I really want...and what I truly expect out of them...I agree with bajabill completely...it is always a crap shoot on what accuracy you get out of them...any of them...bolt guns as well...But...the Stevens aren't high end Savages...and comparing the low end Stevens to the higher priced Savages to me isn't a fair comparison either...Most of the higher priced Savages are good dependable rifles...and many believe that the Stevens are the same...to me they aren't...because of the Quality control issues I have personally seen... Sure...you may get lucky and not have to restock one...but...the odds aren't in your favor on it...at least from all of them I looked over in the past 6 months...I understand value too...and it is difficult for most folks who don't own the NEFs and don't frequent this site..to really know how far they have come in the past 10 years...Heck...there are a lot of gun dealers who actually despise these rifles...That's bothers me...because they are good solid single shot hunting rifles.....it's their loss...and the customers they service...As too how accurate a factory fitted Handi can be...with a minimal investment of mainly time and less than a dollars worth of material...Here's the latest for a hunting rifle of mine...It's a 25-06 shot at 300 yards with my RTV bedding of the forearm and hand loads......I would like to see any Stevens factory rifle match this...or the velocity I got out of it as well...Am I biased..sure...I think I got a right to be...

Is it a "real".. objective comparison to do a break action single shot with a bolt action...No...not really...since they are 2 separate platforms...and while many do switch barrels between both...the vast majority of folks who buy them don't...myself...for the most part included...I have in the past fitted a few...but...it's not my preference ...if you know what I mean...The high end Savages that have already have the nice laminated stocks or high end synthetics that have been bedded properly...are amazingly accurate...there is no question about it...but so too are other makes of rifles...and most of them usually show up at any type of competition as compared to the Savage actions...Never the less I  can understand why folks would want to own one of them...even...if their resale value is  so crappy...then I guess you'll be looking to sell it someone who wants a Savage...Also...for what your going to spend on one of the high end ones...their new prices are right up there with a Remington or Winchester...soooo...the only reason I can see of owning one is the switch barrel capabilities...and that just isn't enough for me to warrant laying out the cash to do it...Besides...there are enough like new ADL's or model 70's floating around that if a person is wanting a  good solid hunting rifle...or even a specialized dedicated rifle of some sort...then it could be had for the same price as having one of the better Savages...in what ever caliber you wanted..To spend money on a low end Savage to me is a waste...Others have different opinions naturally and may be perfectly happy with one...and will never sell it...ever.....and if that's the case...I am very happy for them...but...I for one know that I will have to work on most any rifle to get my expected accuracy...The question is...how much time & money do I want to invest...and what can I expect in return...It's cheaper for me to do it with a Ultra...than with a Stevens...This is as fair of an assessment about them that I can give....and what was asked...

Mac

[~Ace~]

If you Close a handi Just Right, and hold it Just Right, with low to mid range loads that are Just Right.. they shoot Alright

I sold all mine and bought a couple Stevens 200's You can Not compare the accuracy, the stevens shoots the same POA no matter what day of week it is, or what the tempature is. Silly little groups that even when I shoot them I think must be a mistake. They like a wide range of ammo, from light to heavy.

The Handi is a Reasonably accurate gun that will Normally get the job done. They are fun, cheap, and Handi, but they were not Consistent enough for me, if I have a Long shot on a yote, I want it to count...

[quickdtoo]

Here's a statement made by a Stevens owner on another forum, it appears to me that being inexpensive like the Handi in comparison to the more expensive Savage line, has a lot to do with them being hit or miss, or as Roger puts it, a crap shoot.

Tim

For almost two years now I've been a Savage Stevens advocate.Looking at things objectively, however, things (me) are changing.

The 12VBss-s shoots like a charm. The accutrigger hangs up or sticks about every fourth or fifth shot. One of my four Stevens Mod 200s does the same thing, with the old style trigger.

Two maybe three of the Stevens had feeding problems. The 22-250 was so unmanagable I cobbled up a single shot follower for it. Two of them when actuating the bolt allowed the cartridge to jump up so the rear end of the case was higher than the bolt and would jam. Intentionally rapidly ( really fast) slaming the bolt forward helped a lot. Slow? Forget it.

My .270 Stevens suffers dramaticly from bore fouling.

For shooting paper I guess these problems are livable. For dependable field rifles they do not measure up. I'm sure with a little work the situuations can be bettered but for someone to take the rfiles out of the box and be used reliably it's a crap shoot. roger

[Ranger J]

Do the stocks on my Stevens 200s give me the same good feeling that a wooden stock gun does?  No, but no other synthetic stock gun does either.  On the other hand I have four shots instead of one and have not had to hold the gun a certain way or spend endless time trying to develop the exact load with the exact bullet so that it will give me reasonable accuracy, then to find that the next time I take it to the range it has changed its mind and doesn't like that load anymore.  I love the concept of the single shot rifle.  Now if someone would produce one that didn't have to be endlessly tinkered with, or cost a thousand dollars or have one of those ungodly (what were they thinking of) ugly stocks on them.   In the 243 I'm afraid I would have to go with the Stevens.  I have a .223 and a .308 and for the money have no problems with them.  Would I prefer they came with a wood stock for the same money?  Sure I would but when it comes down to the most important thing, they shoot just about load to the same spot every time.  That is important to me.  When I go deer hunting I need to have confidence in my rifle.

RJ 

[cascadedad]

Tim, that really doesn't sound much like a Savage/Stevens advocate.  

I have a Savage 243 that my son shoots and I shoot a Heavy Handi 223.  I like them both.  I did a trigger job and a RTV bed job on the Handi and they now shoot about the same.  I like them both.

Mac, you need to stop all the talk about resale value.  A man should never sell his guns, because one day, he'll regret it!  I've done it a couple times  

For me, I am like Tim, I like complete rifles.  I really don't want to be swapping barrels.  I realize, others are different.

I think to properly answer the original question, we do need to know what the gun will be used for.  For me, this would make a difference in what I would recommend.

[quickdtoo]

Tim, that really doesn't sound much like a Savage/Stevens advocate.  

Roger is a Savage Advocate, just not a Stevens advocate, not any more anyway, being unhappy with both of em he's owned. I'm just the opposite on Handis, I have never been unhappy with any of the almost 40 I own, with the exception of a couple duplicate barrels and one Topper I've sold/traded, I still own every Handi that I've ever bought, still looking for more!! I did order a  7mmMag Savage 11 with checkered wood stock and Accutrigger for $324, but it was discontinued and the order was cancelled, so the only Savage I've owned is a model 311 sxs, still do.

Tim

[cascadedad]

I doubt I would be an advocate if I had that gun and the trigger constantly "hangs up or sticks".  I really like the accu-trigger on my Savage and it has always worked perfectly.

Just curious Tim, how many of the Handis that you have did you buy used from people saying they "wouldn't shoot" and how many of those "can now shoot"?

[quickdtoo]

None that I'm aware of specifically, or remember , although a couple of the used barrels I suspect didn't shoot well due the excess headspace they had, but fitting them properly remedied that issue, as would a trip to H&R as many have done. That's not an option for a used barrel tho, just on factory fitted barrels. The 2003 7x64 Brenneke had a 7+lb trigger on it which didn't help Lik2hunt shoot it well, but it shoots great after I worked on the trigger and worked up a handload for it. I sold Mac a 25-06 barrel that I didn't need, I never shot it, he found it had a bad chamber on it, for which I lent him the frame and H&R replaced the barrel promptly, dunno how good Savage CS is, but it would have to be dang good to equal H&R's.

Tim

[bajabill]

This is a good thread to post some pics of my growing family. Not the largest by far, but more than one sane adult can handle 
              handis

              savages

[351 power]

i have both rifles as well. have worked abit on both of them. they are great rifles for the money. point is, at this price range i wouldn't expect to get something that couldn't stand a small mod or two. if price doesn't matter then you can buy higher quality. but the truth is any rifle can be a crap shoot. and i'd rather buy new and not take a chance on a used rifle that was abused, overloaded, whatever. with some tuning these are good, reliable shooters. buy both. you might even enjoy tuning  them. makes them more personal.

[trotterlg]

I have them both, I play with the Handi's and I use the Savage for work when I need the bullet to go where I aim it (every time).  The new Savages and most of the new Stevens rifles come with a center feed magazine which is designed to fix the feed problems some people reported with the stagared feed mags.  The plastic stock isn't any worse than any other plastic stock, and used Savages can be had with wood stocks for well under $300.  Used NEF's can be had for well under $200.  For a hunting rifle NEF took a step backwards when they put extractors on the rifles, this was to fix ejection problems also reported by some people, but it is hard to pick an empty out with gloves on.  Handi rifles are at the mid range of the break open single shots, Thompson Center is above and Rossi is below.  I think the Stevens rifles are a little above the low end Remington rifles but below the mid range ones.  Savage/Stevens are easy to work on and to change barrels on.  I kind of think it is like the appels and oranges comparison.  Larry

[jakes10mm]

Lots of good feedback, thank you.  Guess I should clarify the switching barrels a bit more.  I'm not looking for a multi-cartridge rifle....otherwise I'd save my nickels and dimes and invest in a T/C Encore.  I like the flexibility of the Savage locknut barrel attachment.  If I get them a 243 Win to start with, we could "upgrade" when they get older to a cartridge/caliber with a little more downrange punch...say 260 Rem, 284 Win or 308 Win.  The bolt head remains the same and the barrel is all I need to replace.  Do the same thing with a Winchester 70, Remington 700, or Ruger 77 and you'll drop a couple extra C-Notes having a Gunsmith install the barrel. 

Regarding accuracy, maybe I've been fortunate, but my bolt and single shot rifles shoot less than 1 MOA (sometimes by a hair, but still under).  Hearing 1-1/2" from a Handi-Rifle sounds like a big grouping.  I've read through the Handi accurizing tips in the past...guess I need to reread them again.  The only Handi I've personally owned is a Buffalo Classic in 45-70.  Great, fun-shooting rifle, but was unfortunately sacrificed to finance another firearm.  I could pop clays at 120yds consistently, but could never get it to group well on paper. 

Anyhow, thanks again for the feedback.  Quite a bit of opinions for a new posting.

[SM Bob]

I bought a Stevens 200 223 about a year ago. I bought it because of all the good stuff that I read about them in different forums. I have to say that I have been disappointed with it. To tell you the truth, I never liked it from day one. I hate the stock! I don't like the way it points. It feels more like a 2X4 in my hands than a hunting rifle. The trigger was acceptable out of the box. The accuracy is ok, but nothing to get very excited
about, at least with this particular rifle. I just don't understand the allure to these rifles at all. They are just flat out ugly! If I were looking to buy a bolt action I would look at something else like maybe a Tica, Remington, Sako, etc. As far as Handi-Rifles go... I recently bought a 223 bull barrel.
This is my first one. I haven't had it very long, but I will say this. I liked this rifle from the from the first time I picked it up. I'm not just saying that because this is a H&R/NEF forum. I really like this rifle. It just feels right in my hands. I was very impressed with the construction of it. It is a real sweet rifle for the money. I don't have a lot of range time with it yet, but I have no doubt that it will be a real shooter. I couldn't think of a better rifle for a youngster to start out with. I say go for the Handi 243. An Ultra would be nice!

                                                                              Robert

[mitchell]

my 243 shoots in the .2's with 55 grain bullets and under .5 with the 95 grainers. i've only had one handi that (out of like 24 or 25ish) that wouldn't shoot half MOA and i've had a few that give my custom bolt rifles a run for their money

[DalesCarpentry]

I just recently bought a Remington 700 SPS 243. I did a lot of reading before I seteled on the Remington. I was looking for the least expensive bolt action 243 that was very accurate. I sure made the right choice. I really considered the Savage Stevens hard. The price was sure right. The thing is the more i read about it, the more I decided on the Rem. You will hear a lot of people say it is the same rifle as the 110 without the accu-trigger. If it were then why do so many people report that their Stevens are shooting 1 1/2 to 2'' groups at 100 yards. Like I said I did a lot of reading on them. The 110's don't get those kind of reports. If I were you and money was a factor. I would buy a Handi 243. If money was not a real factor and you could spend a little more I would go for the Rem 700. To me there is no sense in buying a bolt rifle if it can not out shoot a Handi. I really do not believe the Stevens has a thing over the Handi except it will hold more bullets. Here is a 3 shot group I shot at 300 yards with the Rem. Dale

[trotterlg]

Hi Dale, hope you are doing better.  The Stevens is exactly the same action as a Savage, all parts interchange directly on like models.  This is my 10 shot group out of a Savage 10 at 100 yards, my dime beats your quarter on this day.  Larry

[DalesCarpentry]

Hi Dale, hope you are doing better.  The Stevens is exactly the same action as a Savage, all parts interchange directly on like models.  This is my 10 shot group out of a Savage 10 at 100 yards, my dime beats your quarter on this day.  Larry

Larry very nice group and something to be proud of but I think my Quater still beats your dime. My group was at 300 yards. Thanks for yor concern. I am feeling better for now.   Dale

[nomosendero]

Mac, very, very good shooting!!! I don't think I will tell Randy that was his barrel, but then again I might. 
Good load & vel. as well.

[nomosendero]

I just recently bought a Remington 700 SPS 243. I did a lot of reading before I seteled on the Remington. I was looking for the least expensive bolt action 243 that was very accurate. I sure made the right choice. I really considered the Savage Stevens hard. The price was sure right. The thing is the more i read about it, the more I decided on the Rem. You will hear a lot of people say it is the same rifle as the 110 without the accu-trigger. If it were then why do so many people report that their Stevens are shooting 1 1/2 to 2'' groups at 100 yards. Like I said I did a lot of reading on them. The 110's don't get those kind of reports. If I were you and money was a factor. I would buy a Handi 243. If money was not a real factor and you could spend a little more I would go for the Rem 700. To me there is no sense in buying a bolt rifle if it can not out shoot a Handi. I really do not believe the Stevens has a thing over the Handi except it will hold more bullets. Here is a 3 shot group I shot at 300 yards with the Rem. Dale

Dale, I will have to agree on this one, especially when it comes from accuracy in the field, whether off a pack, bean bag(poly bags for wet country Arkies), bipod, front of forearm, back of forearm, pressure on sling or not, on & on. I bought a used Model 700 in 270 at a pawn shop recently, adjusted the trigger to 2 3/4# easily (another plus), cleaned out the barrel & worked up loads. With 140 Accubonds it will shot sub 1/2" with boring regularity & one group once I found the right charge, (one that Mac told me about) was good for .186" group. I just returned from WY., we did some stalks & my son & brother used the gun too & 3 Mule Deer & 3 Antelope Bucks bit the Dust or actually snow with this killing machine.  It is a kick butt rifle & I have sev. other Rems in the safe with big stories to tell. Pics & more details later in Med. bores, after I rest a few days, then again MZ. season starts here Sat. but the details will come soon.

[Mac11700]

Thanks Rod...Go ahead and have him look at the work up groups.. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,127579.msg1098460700.html#msg1098460700....I am soooo glad he parted with it...cause this one would have been a real shame to put to the knife...  I'm really liking this Retumbo...The RTV bedding works great too...since these were shot off the fore arm above the barrel screw..I want to try this load out to 600 as well...just to see if it will hold for me...Since the 115 grainers are doing so well...I will most likely give Richard a  call at Wildcat bullets and see if he can send me a box to try...?? Who knows ehh...

The Stevens is exactly the same action as a Savage, all parts interchange directly on like models.

Your right Larry...it is...but...the QC isn't nearly as good as the original model 10's or any of the new versions of Savages...nor are the tupper ware stocks they are putting on them as decent either...

I'm not looking for a multi-cartridge rifle

... ...

I also like the ease of barrel swapping on the Savage/Stevens;

...So...you just like the capability...but don't plan on using it...? Well...then in that case...I suggest buying a new Remington model 700 SPS...Yes...they are more than the Stevens...but...IMHO...you will get a better built rifle than the Stevens...If you got to have a Savage action...then don't waste your money on having to trick out a Stevens to what you can purchase off the shelf...You will be money & time ahead...

cascadedad...

Mac, you need to stop all the talk about resale value.  A man should never sell his guns, because one day, he'll regret it!  I've done it a couple times   A

Well..talking about it is part of the over all comparison...and I would be remiss if I didn't say so... Some folks never sell any rifles they buy...I am not like that...I look at these rifles as tools first...and since were aren't talking high end quality firearms or even what I consider collectibles here...to me they are disposable...I'll buy swap and trade till I get some I want to keep...those stay home...the others are negotiable merchandise...even though they may be excellent shooters and all...I like the chase to the next new acquisition...and will have it today after noon sometime...

Mac

[cascadedad]

Mac, was just joking about the selling.  I have sold a couple that I ended up regretting.  I have a couple right now that I need to sell as there is no need for them and there is no attachment.

I have a question for you on your bed job.  I was just looking at your picture and noticed that besides the fact that yours is thicker than mine, you apparently did not fill in the forearm stud hole (or whatever it is called).  See my pics.

Do you think that makes a difference?  It would be easy enough for me to take that out.

[chrsm]

Is it me? I count 11 holes not 10 out of the sav. any handi out there on paper!