Author Topic: 2 questions before my first shoot (Read 1351 times)

scrollmaster · « **on:** June 13, 2003, 02:34:03 PM »

I know these are overly simple questions to most but never having shot bp before I want to make sure I don't do something stupid before wandering out to the barpits to harrass the local wildlife with all this noise.

#1 I have fffg triple seven powder coming and I understand that I measure it by volume and not weight. Does that means if I measure & load with my 30gr nozzle I have what is considered 30 grs by volume and would load this into my revolver but not 30 grs if I weighed it?

#2 I ordered some boxes of .457 from Cabela's to shoot in my Old Army and with the exception of one box of .451 that's what they sent. Now, I have a FIE black powder pistol (open frame Colt type) I've had for quite a long time. Outside of proof marks, very few other stamps and none to indicate caliber. Chambers seem to be about 44cal but nothing stamped on the gun anywhere to indicate such. My question is this... From looking at my Reloading book, is the .451 ball for this gun?
Dennis

simonkenton · « **Reply #1 on:** June 14, 2003, 08:18:39 AM »

You are right about the powder. Just use your blackpowder measure for 30 grains, and forget about weighing it. Also, that stuff is more powerful than black powder, so 30 grains would be a pretty good jolt, though I imagine that high quality American pistol would handle it. You might start with 25 grains.
I am not sure of the exact caliber of your other pistol. Try loading a ball. You want to see a little lead shaved off the ball when it is loaded. This assures that you have a tight fit. It should make a little lead ring, a"doughnut".
For example, I got .457 balls for my Pietta. Well, it made a doughnut, but it was very difficult to load. I was afraid I was going to break the lever. I got some .454 balls, which is what the factory recommended. They make a doughnut, too, but they are easier to load.

Flint · « **Reply #2 on:** June 14, 2003, 09:46:24 AM »

I shot 35 gr of 777 in the Ruger Old Army, and it kicks and hits like a 44 Special... It's hot stuff. I used a Wonder Wad under the ball. If you drop it to 30 gr, you might get away without a filler, but 25 grains might be too far in for the rammer to get the ball to the powder without cornmeal or such, or additional Wonder Wads. You want NO air space. In the Ruger, I also, without Wonder Wads, shot 40 gr of 777, and it was substantial.

777 gives the equivalent load to the full charge of bp in the old balloon head case, as a 45-70 balloon head held 70 gr of black, a modern solid head case only holds 60 gr. 60 gr of 777 is equivalent to 70 gr of black. It's something like 15% stronger. Yes, it weighs less per bulk (as does Pyrodex and Cleanshot) so you have to measure it by volume. There is a Pyrodex weight factor, published, but all the substitutes weight varies from lot to lot, so volume is the only reliable method.

Good luck. 777 cleans real easy, with MP7 or Ballistol. Water if you must, if Stainless, no problem.

The Shrink · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2003, 08:44:05 AM »

Dennis

It may clear up some confusion to realize that 30 gr. weight and 30 gr volume are the same with black powder. This means that you can file or grind that 30 grain spout until it measures 25 gr. of the Holy Black, then use it for the 777. You can create a spout throwing any desired weight equivelant in this manner.

scrollmaster · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2003, 10:51:29 AM »

Quote from: The Shrink

Dennis
It may clear up some confusion to realize that 30 gr. weight and 30 gr volume are the same with black powder. This means that you can file or grind that 30 grain spout until it measures 25 gr. of the Holy Black, then use it for the 777. You can create a spout throwing any desired weight equivelant in this manner.

W A Y N E ! ! ! Whadda ya mean clear it up some... man you just plugged in a bulb that lit a whole string on my BP tree. I may dance at your wedding, sing at you bar mitzvah, dye your next years Easter eggs, help you dig worms for the fishin' trip. You betcha this helps me see something I didn't and in a big way.

I really am looking forward to my first shoot and if possible I plan on it this weekend.
Thanks Again,
Dennis

howdy doody · « **Reply #5 on:** June 15, 2003, 01:58:25 PM »

I hope you are sturdy. How big an old boy are you? Even 25gr of 777 is overkill for cowboy shooting. Done that, been there. I still use the stuff in my long range though. I replaced the smokless 4198 with a load of 777 and it worked out to be the same, but black powder. 777 is pricey too, but advantages are that it is very clean burning and is real easy to clean up. I have been using a lot of subs lately and that is where I tried the 777. I have settled for a while ( a case) with Clean shot. I use a 30gr load in rems and ROAs of the CleanShot/American Pioneer.
Lot's of folks are using 777 around my neck of the woods, but they only load 15gr of it and wad over it, especially on the ROAs, so the ram will seat the ball. Smokes pretty good at 15 gr too, maybe not as much as Clean Shot though. That is my experience, your mileage may vary.
About your second question. A good sized ball for a cylinder is one that when rammed will shave off a thin round ring of lead. That does two things. It insures you make a good seal and it will keep the ball from moving under recoil and allowing a gap above powder which would give an irratic shot from a cylinder with air space over powder. You would need to try that .451 ball to see how it fits. They make removing tools, or what I did was make my own that I can install a course drywall screw into and slide hammer the ball out of a cylinder. .457 is the correct size ball for the Ruger Old Army (ROA) You might get an idea of what size ball you need for your FIE, if you could mike the cylinder and go a couple of thousands above that for the size ball. I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, I am sure we can all help you. Welcome to the world of C&B. Fun starts right about now. :-)

scrollmaster · « **Reply #6 on:** June 15, 2003, 02:37:35 PM »

Quote from: Howdy Doody

I hope you are sturdy. How big an old boy are you?

I'm more'n a fair size ole' country boy from the backwoods of NE Louisiana and have always enjoyed shootin' hot loads in my Rugers but not as a steady diet. For the most part when I'm at the gravel pits or old dumping ground I shoot almost entirely 22 pistol because of the price. If I'm at the range I never take a 22, just larger calibers. Just haven't had much time the last couple years to do much of any kind of shooting and have gotten excited about shooting the Ruger Old Army.

The 30 gr was just a number I was using for example mostly because that is what size nozzle came on my powder flask. I'm sure I'll be shooting some heavy charges once I'm a little settled in with bp but just want to cruise for a bit right outta the chute.
Dennis

howdy doody · « **Reply #7 on:** June 15, 2003, 05:38:01 PM »

:shock: I am back. Yeah, I been listening to too many of those Roy D Mercer tapes :-D
I have 4 ROAs 2 of the 7 /2" kind and 2 of the 5 1/2 kind. I can tell you they are stout and can take it. If you are just plinking or hunting boar with one, I think you could handle a 30gr charge just fine. I would recommend you try that 20gr nipple first to see how you like that with 777. I use mine for CAS and that is 60 rounds for a match or more for a big match. I can shoot a stout load, but not all day. That is why some folks using the 777 load down so far with that powder. In my area 777 is pricey at about $21.95 and I can get the Cleanshot for $14.95, so I just use that with my regular load of 30gr in my ROAs. They shoot cowboy distances real well too. I have never even tried anything longer with them. I have with my remingtons though and with 30gr they are real accurate out to 40 yards. I was surprised. They had a special pistol target out that far once and used it as a bonus if you hit it and I got it about dead center. That powder that day was I think pyrodex select.

The Shrink · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2003, 01:43:01 AM »

Dennis

If your local shot doesn't have them, Dixie lists extra spouts for your flask and alos sells adjustable measures. I'd get an adjustable measure to find the best load, then grind a spout to throw that amount of 777, if that's what you're gonna use. I've stuck with the Holy Black, and don't intend to stray!

scrollmaster · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2003, 02:39:20 AM »

Quote from: Howdy Doody

Yeah, I been listening to too many of those Roy D Mercer tapes :-D

Yo Howdy, you better be careful listenin' to them Roy D Mercer tapes... somebody's liable to open a 55 gallon drum of whup @$$ and pour it all over ya! Wait a second, jus' how big a boy are ya anyway??? Ain't these guys a hoot. I stumbled across a R D Mercer recording someone made years ago and have been laughing ever since. I always thought I'd take time when at one of Wanenmacher's Tulsa Gun Show and try to meet Phil & Brent but never did. Now with all the hoopla about taking guns across state lines I don't setup at their show anymore. Really miss it to.
Have a good one,
Dennis

howdy doody · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2003, 03:57:48 AM »

heh, heh, yup, I have about 4 of their albums. The funniest one is Roy D Mercers greatest fits.
To answer your other question. I am about average size and yes, I have had a good old country a**whoopin' many a time :-D