Author Topic: Nosler failure (Read 14646 times)

NONYA · « **on:** October 11, 2007, 06:11:06 PM »

I had two instances of bullet failure over the last week with Noslers Combined technology hunting bullets,i had one fragment on impact on my buck sunday and another on a doe Wed that completly BLEW UP on impact and did not even penetrate the shoulder blade at 100 yards.This is a pic of the ENTRANCE.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2007, 11:53:50 PM »

Did the animal die? How many shots did it take to kill it?

Questor · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2007, 04:09:19 AM »

I had forgotten about those bullets. I thought they were supposed to be tougher than the regular partitions. Am I wrong? Refresh my memory on how they're supposed to perform.

I have not yet used the partitions, but are they supposed to expand violently in front of the partition and then hold together with the part remaining behind the partition? Could it be that the bullets actually performed as designed?

Nonya, please don't construe this as my eroding your argument that there was a failure. I am genuinely curious about these things and really would like to know as much as possible about the failure. This is because I am very picky about selecting bullets for my own use.

What kind of velocity was the bullet at? What distance were the animals?

Could it be that these bullets are just made for lower velocities or longer distances?

In any case, in premium bullets I expect three things:
1) Good consistent quality for both accuracy and reliabilty
2) Penetration and expansion consistent with the application (i.e. deep penetration for big game bullets, more expansion and less penetration for deer bullets, violent expansion and fragmentation with varmint bullets, etc.)
3) Bullet integrity so that blow-ups and failures to expand don't occur.

Another question, what kind of bullet are you considering now? I've convinced myself that the Barnes TSX is likely to become my bullet of choice. They seem to have a real winning combination there.

rickt300 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2007, 04:44:12 AM »

My guess is he was using the CT Ballistic Silvertip. I have had great performance out of the 150 grain 7mm bullet out of my 7MM mauser but then I am only starting them out at 2700 fps. But it does indeed look like the doe is dead.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:08:03 AM »

More info needed Cole. I'm reasonably sure you were using the 7 Rem. Mag. but which bullet? What weight and which of the three product lines PT, BT or AB?

I guess for me I find it hard to say a bullet failed if the critter died and you were able to recover it. Clearly you recovered it and it sure looks dead.

Nosler specifically says their BT line is not really for use up close from Magnums with their lighter weight bullets. In a 7 mag I'd not wanna use a BT less than 160 grains unless really long shots were all I'd be taking.

teddy12b · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:25:55 AM »

Good topic, and thanks for letting other hunters be aware of the problem. If you wouldn't have told us that picture was of an entrance wound I never would have believed it. I've hardly seen pictures of exit wounds like that let alone an entrance wound.

How far did it travel after it took the shot? I know that nobody like to have their bullets explode on impact but from that picture it sure looks like you killed the heck out of that animal.

DDelle338 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:53:37 AM »

Another example indicating that those ballistic tips and higher velocity rounds don't exactly make for a good combination. They will kill, but I believe they also "just wound" more game than the traditional "regular" bullets.
I posted previously about myself and a friend both finding and finishing-off wounded game in the same area last year. Both shot with Yellow Poly-Tipped bullets. I also have a friend that is a deer butcher; he has a shelf over his sink covered with bullets and fragments recovered from game. Allot of the ones that are just fragments came from ballistic tips. I guess they do have their place, but close range and woods hunting is not the best place for them.

NONYA · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2007, 08:50:45 AM »

IT WAS NOT A BT,I know damn well they are worthless,AS i said they were COMBINED TECHNOLOGY noslers,advertised as a penetrating ,hunting bullet,supposed to penetrate like a partition and shoot as well as the accubonds,Winchester loads them in their premium ammo.150 grs,7 mag,2950 fps.The shot knocked it flat then it stood up and walked in a circle until i finished it off with a .45 acp.Any hunting bullet that EXPLODES on contact is a FAILURE.

Graybeard · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2007, 09:34:52 AM »

You've STILL not answered the question of what bullet you were using. CT is merely the name assigned to the bullets marketed by Winchester rather than Nosler. They are basically identical to the Nosler bullets except for the coating on them. They stil come in three product lines just like regular Noslers. They are either BT, PT or AB. WHICH did you use and what weight?

steve4102 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2007, 10:02:16 AM »

Quote from: NONYA on October 12, 2007, 08:50:45 AM

IT WAS NOT A BT,I know damn well they are worthless,AS i said they were COMBINED TECHNOLOGY noslers,advertised as a penetrating ,hunting bullet,supposed to penetrate like a partition and shoot as well as the accubonds,Winchester loads them in their premium ammo.150 grs,7 mag,2950 fps.The shot knocked it flat then it stood up and walked in a circle until i finished it off with a .45 acp.Any hunting bullet that EXPLODES on contact is a FAILURE.

Please read the box and tell us what bullet you were using. Nosler/Winchester Combined Technologies used to market the "Fail Safe" bullet. A very tough and accurate bullet that is now discontinued, they were originally called "Black Talons". They also used to market a "Partition Gold" in the CT line, no more. Now, they now take a POS Nosler Ballistic Tip, paint it black with a light grey tip and call it a "Ballistic Silver Tip". These are nothing more than a BT wearing a tuxedo. As far as I know the CT Ballistic Silver Tip is the only CT bullet left available in the CT line. Winchester does market Accubond and Partitions in loaded ammo, but they are not labeled CT.
I'm guessing that you didn't read what you bought and ended up with the BT in disguise. The only 150gr CT bullet I can find either as a component or loaded ammo is the POS "Ballistic Silver Tip".

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SBST7&cart=N21tIFJlbSBNYWdudW0=
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?CurrentSort=manufacturer_a&CurrentCountRet=2000&CurrentManufacture=AnyCompany&CategoryString=9315***652***19785***9016***&CategoryID=7280&BrandID=&page=1&KeyWord=&TabID=1&company_select=2166&search_keywords2=&sort1=manufacturer_a&PageSelect=1&RecordsReturned=2000&PageSelect2=1&RecordsReturned2=2000

NONYA · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2007, 11:44:50 AM »

The box says NOSLER COMBINED TECH, 150 GR 7mm,they are black with a white tip.The side of the box has their speel about building a better hunting bullet that expands like a partition but has the accuracy of a BT,it says they were made for winchester for their supreme ammo line ect ect.Whatever the hell they are i wont be loading them again for ANYTHING.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2007, 11:47:20 AM »

I've used the CT Silver BT's a-lot and have never once had one do as your saying...How hot was your hand loads...I know you posted what the factory publishes...but is yours the same? The only 2 times I have seen what happened to your doe was with some 270 cal. Hornady's 140gr. boat tails...and shooting well under 50 yards...and the other was with a 1-1/8 Light Field 12ga slug..

Mac

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2007, 12:08:22 PM »

wow only other time i saw a bullet blow up like that was my brotherinlaw using a bdl 8mag on whitetail with a factory corelock 185 grain load. He decimated two deer that year and was so discusted that i ended up with the gun. It now gets 210 nos partitions and does fine with those. Got to agree with you they wouldnt be in my gun again either.

crow_feather · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2007, 12:44:33 PM »

WoW,

Could it be that you had a bad box of bullets? Maybe a call to the company to see if others have complained about the same batch. I am sorry about the meat loss. I can see why you like hunting them with a bow.

Best of luck on the next one.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #14 on:** October 12, 2007, 12:46:06 PM »

I ve shot two deer with 300wby magnum. Both at appx 140yds in both cases a Combined tech bullet was used the first a 168grn and the second was a 180grn. In neither case did the bullet exit and in one case the chest cavity wasn't even punctured

I feel the Nosler b-tip in all it's flavors is one of the WORST possible choices for any cartridge with a belt. Will they kill your deer? YES. Will they turn it inside out in the process? YES. These bullets may be the cat's meow for 30-06, 308 class cartridges, but they aren't worth a damn in a big boomer.

This is a classic case of the bullet not being matched to the cartridge. The Nosler ballistic tips are great bullets if used within their intended velocity envelope. I fully intend to hunt again this year with the same box of 180grn CT bullets I mentioned above. Having learned my lesson though this time they'll be leaving the muzzle of my 06 encore at a much more sedate 2500fps

There was an extensive thread about this in the hunting forum. Your experience comes as no surprise to me at all.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2007, 02:53:29 PM »

To much gun.......try a 30.30 next time......

Lone Star · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2007, 05:06:15 PM »

For those who bother to read what the makers have to say about their bullets (italics are mine):

Quote

CT Ballistic Silvertip™ bullets....in hunting weights, jackets have been thickened and cores hardened to blend generous expansion with judicious penetration ideal for light and medium game at extended ranges.

As usual GB is right, these are just BallisticTips with a Lubalox® coating and white tips ("Silvertips"). They perform just like BTs, which should never be used at magnum velocities at close range. Sorry, but IMO in this instance the failure was due to the hunter not choosing the correct bullet for his hunting conditions.

IME (seen dozens of deer shot with them) the BTips perform great even at close range - with a reduced muzzle velocity. I've used them extensively in Contender handguns and they performed perfectly. They really are not like the old R-P BronzePoints, which had thin jackets and overexpanded at close range - even before there were long range magnums.

.

NONYA · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2007, 06:26:21 PM »

They are just worthless,i dont care what they recommend,they were only moving at 2950,and who the hell makes bullets that are only good at long range?From here on Nosler will have 1 less customer and ill load another box of Barnes triple shocks to use on everything that i hunt.

steve4102 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2007, 08:24:50 PM »

Quote from: NONYA on October 12, 2007, 11:44:50 AM

The box says NOSLER COMBINED TECH, 150 GR 7mm,they are black with a white tip.

Show us a picture of the box! Like I said before, the ONLY CT bullet in 7mm 150gr is a Ballistic Tip. I am willing to bet that somewhere on that box it says Ballistic Silver Tip.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2007, 01:32:03 AM »

my favorite 7mm bullet has allways been the 145 grand slam. Its never let me down long or short range and its allways been one of the most accurate premium bullets ive loaded.

Questor · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2007, 03:52:13 AM »

I thought the original post was for the CT partitions. I didn't realize there was also a ballistic tip in that product line. According to Nosler's description of the CT ballistic tip, it's got a thin wall. The way I read it the wall is thinner than the regular ballistic tip, which is a bullet that's designed to expand reliably on long shots. I don't think I'd personally want to use it in a magnum, especially after seeing what happens to them from lower velocity cartridges.

NONYA, I think you're going to have to chalk this one up to experience and switch to a tougher bullet. The word around here, and my experience collaborates it, is that the ballistic tips expand to readily for use at close range or at high velocities. The guy that runs my local reloading store specifically recommends against using the ballistic tips for close range applications like deer hunting here in Minnesota because they have a history of the performance you experienced. My experience with them was for longer range lower velocity. For example, I used the 6.5mm ballistic tip at a muzzle velocity of about 2250fps. At 270 yards the bullet did exit, but we found fragments of jacket far away from the point of impact embedded in the meat. It was great for that application. I think that if that bullet were going 1000fps faster on impact, I'd have had quite a yucky mess on my hands.

Thanks for sharing the experience. It's good to be able to learn from the experiences of others, both good and bad.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2007, 04:12:31 AM »

IMO those bullets with the fancy tips are just hollow points with a lot of hype and I've never had any use for a hollow point for anything larger than a ground hog. If they were so good, the Remington Bronze Point would have been a raging success which it wasn't.
At a muzzle velocity @2900fps (Nonya's post) if the deer had been shot with a NP or a Grand Slam or a Core Lokt or any of your standard cup and core bullets, it would have been a ho hum, drt harvest. It wouldn't have taken any magic bullet to do the trick.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2007, 05:04:13 AM »

The 7mm Rem. Mag. isn't all that much faster than the old .270 Winchester which was designed around cup & core bullets and does fine with them. I guess I'm trying to say it shouldn't be any great challenge to build a bullet that will work in a 7mm mag. I use the 120 gr. ballistic tips at about 2800 fps in my 6.5x55 and have no complaints with then. I use them only because they group much tighter then the 120 gr. Rem. corelokt. A 150 gr. 7mm is obviously not a varmint bullet and should not behave like one. Some have said this was "hunter's error" in choosing the wrong bullet but I sure can't blame Nonya for thinking that should be a good bullet for antelope, I would think ANY 150 grain 7mm would be way more than enough for antelope. What are we supposed to do, wait 10 years and read all the on-line reports from those who've used a certain bullet? Then who's going to provide those reports, the gun writers? If one of them had experienced such a failure they'd have just squeezed a hunting trip out of the bullet maker in exchange for keeping it quiet! Really, when you try any new bullet you have nothing to go on but the hype that has been written about it. As I said, the ballistic tips have worked just fine in my 6.5 and I'll stick with it but I don't doubt the Remington 120's would work just as well, they just don't group as well.

rickt300 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2007, 05:28:54 AM »

The 284 diameter suffers from the same problem the 308 bore does, a lot of different cartridges with varying velocities. Bullet makers have to design bullets for too wide an impact velocity range but generally I think they add the highest and llowest sppeds together and divide by 2 to get the range for the jack of all trades bullet. I also think the faster you start a bullet that rotational speeds reach a point that causes the bullet to overexpand. This all said I don't shoot any ballistic tips in any of my magnums unless I am expecting an over 200 yard shot. I am going to shoot a doe with the 95 grain BT out of my 6MM Remington and this load gets around 3100 frps. Then again the 6MM's are generally 3000 fps performers.

NONYA · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2007, 08:17:52 AM »

I shot the remainder of my noslers at the gongs this morning and picked up 100 barnes triples shocks on the way home,problem solved.They will penetrate AND expand at 50 or 500 and no amount of achievable speed from the 7 mag will make them perform any other way,i made the mistake of believing Noslers BS about improved performance with the Combined Techs,I even slowed my loads down under 3000 fps to be safe,didnt help,wont buy Nosler again.

rickt300 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 13, 2007, 08:30:08 AM »

I get the feeling you aren't going to be happy with the Triple Shoks either. Just because it say's Barnes on the box doesn't mean you are going to get what you want every time. Noslers aren't at all bad bullets but the Ballistic tips are a bit specialized for a guy who wants the impossible "One bullet does all" that the bullet people are trying to push on us. You would be better served with a partition or an accubond.

NONYA · « **Reply #26 on:** October 13, 2007, 09:19:48 AM »

The triple shocks are the one bullet I havnt had a problem with thus far,I have had one or two partitions separate and the accubonds are no better than the combined crap I loaded.

rickt300 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 13, 2007, 12:27:35 PM »

Call it luck but I haven't had but 3 actual bullet failures in hundreds of kills on deer, antelope, elk and feral hogs. I have used a vast variety of bullets and of the two failures all were peobably misused by me. An antelope doe at 50 feet using the 130 grain Sierra Pro Hunter out of my max loaded 270 gave me almost exactly what you show in the picture. A 225 grain X bullet out of my 338 started at 2700 fps hit an elk at 450 yards and did not expand and the same thing with a 250 grain Sierra Gameking at just about the same range and starting velocity. Obviously the first was too high an impact velocity and the two others were because impact velocity was too low to get expansion. Can I blame the bullets for using them outside their envelope? No it was my fault. No bullet is perfect and if you use any one bullet in a lot of situations you will sooner or later get what you didn't want.

drdougrx · « **Reply #28 on:** October 13, 2007, 01:21:43 PM »

I'm kinda perplexed. Having read NONYA's posts before, I can't say I'd disbelieve him. If he said it happened I guess it did. I use BTs quite alot in all kinds of calibers. I use 150s in 270, 95grs in 243 mostly. I've killed alot of game with them and no problem. Though I'll admit, I'm moving to accubonds as I think a bonded bullet is a better mousetrap. Troubling....

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 14, 2007, 08:39:37 AM »

Quote from: NONYA on October 13, 2007, 09:19:48 AM

The triple shocks are the one bullet I havnt had a problem with thus far,I have had one or two partitions separate and the accubonds are no better than the combined crap I loaded.

Well...don't that beat all...I've never heard of a Partition separating from it's back core unless shot into steel or concrete...otherwise they preform just exactly like they are suppose to...and that is the front mushrooming...and sometimes all the way back to the partition when driven at top speeds or hitting super thick bone...As for the Accubonds...I have never seen them lose well over 1/2 their weight unless when hitting super thick bone...The CT BT's...yes...I have seen them come apart on deer less than 50 yards away and hitting the shoulder...but even then they had complete penetration and looked like your picture for the exit wound...

So...do I believe this happened...In my honest opinion...No...I don't...I know this won't matter to you...but...that's ok...You have your opinion...but I actually base my opinion on extensive first hand experience with these bullets...not as you have with all the inconsistencies of your BS story...and I am sure others feel the same...

Mac