Microstamping

[myronman3]

the way i quoted you represented exactly what you said,  unless you dont understand the english language or punctuation.   dont worry about me,  i can follow the rules of the forum.  how about you?   lol.

so what do you all suppose the la pierre and the nra gained from this,  other than material for their fund raising campaigns?   

[Redhawk1]

Sorry, not this time, I am not going to take your bait, why don't you go troll some place else.   

[myronman3]

yup, the day is here that the nra doesnt even pretend to put up a fight.  but still, i am sure they will get plenty of mileage begging for money out of this.

[S.B.]

myronman3, I for one, am a life member of the NRA but, what does the NRA have to do with microstamping?

[warrior1]

why is it a group of gun owners especially californians never enlisst the aid of the aclu?could be interesting see as how these laws are infringing on our constitutiional rights. just my saturday fickle finger of fate thought.
dan

[Redhawk1]

myronman3, I for one, am a life member of the NRA but, what does the NRA have to do with microstamping?

Good question, but I think you went over his head on that one, he may have to consult his Anti-NRA co-hearts. I think his problem is more with me than anything else. He needs attention and this is his way of getting it. He takes every opportunity to bash the NRA.

[Mikey]

Guys - c'mon.  Why go through all this agita for nothing.  The technology to microstamp a speeding bullet does not exist so why get all whizzed off for nothing??? 

Can anyone here (and we have some brilliant members) give me the ghost of an idea as to how microstamping a speding bullet could be accomplished? 

And who really cares if the NRA or the GOA says they support the idea - it will not happen because the technology to accomplish it does not exist - Neither group has thrown in the towel here but both have allowed the Governor of the largest state of the union to make a huge ass of himself by signing such a frivolous law.

And who cares about california?  What are gun makers going to do - stop selling guns to cops (doubt it very much).  Gun owners won't exit en mass because they like it there and they will still be able to keep their guns. 

Microstamping is horse pucky and a fallacy.  Wadda ya gonna do, get so whizzed that you stroke out and die - just what the other side wants, one less gun owner.  What they cannot tolerate is one combined and cohesive set of very vocal gun owners who make them look foolish at every turn. 

And you guys are whizzing at each other.  Gimme a break.  Learn to choose your battles and realize which ones really matter. 

[Redhawk1]

Mikey, very easy to sit there and make your analysis on the topic and give your judgment on us. But for the same guys to come to threads and bash a pro-gun group time after time gets old. Do I get upset, no not really, I find it amusing that guys that own guns work harder to destroy the NRA than the anti-gun crowd do.
I know we don't have the  technology to microstamp, and if they did the NRA does not and will not support it.

As far as California, they are the leading State with the most anti-gun group of politicians and law makers, and the people of California are the ones who elected them, then they want to cry because the NRA or other pro-gun groups fail to stop all there stupid laws and bills introduced. They themselves created the problem. I did not elect there Government they did.

Your last statement is ludicrous, you sound as if we should sit back and let people bash a pro-gun group and say noting in return. Sorry, but I think this is an important battle, destruction from within. Do you not see it that way?

[telizotte]

Hello my name is Todd Lizotte and I am the co-inventor of microstamping.

I figured I could give some more insight into the technology.  Once again I am bias.  But, I appreciate when people can provide feedback and some serious well researched skepticism.  The goal of microstamping was a inexpensive source of data for law enforcement and to maintain the status quo for law abiding firearm owners.

First, the Microstamping technique is simple.  A firearm currently has small microstructures which are formed onto the interior surfaces of the firearm that come in contact with the cartridge, when the firearm is discharged.  They are termed unintentional microstructures, since they are randomly formed when the surfaces of the firearm are machined during the actual manufacture of the firearm.

These random tooling microstructures transfer to the cartridges and form the basis of the science of forensic firearm identification, which is the science of matching these scratches and dings extracted from the cartridges found at a crime scene to the firearm if it is recovered.

When applying Microstamping to a firearm, first we identify the surfaces within the firearm that transfer the unintentional marks and then use a laser process to create intentional microstructures that take the form of numbers and letters to form an 8 digit code.  The idea is to allow the firearm to retain both the unintentional and intentional microstructures.

The Microstamping technique uses the same forces that produce the unintentional marks, so that the “status quo” is maintained, no new mechanisms are needed, we just use the forces and surfaces that currently produce markings onto the cartridge.  No changes to the firearms function.

The cost is minimal, ranging from between 25 cents to $3, depending on volume.  A small firearm manufacturer can go to one of the laser job-shops we licensed and get a set of 100 pins and slides processed for approximately $300.00 total.

I am currently working with several firearm manufacturers.  We have shown how to implement it into manufacturing and we have even shown them that they can use existing equipment on their work floors or send it out for job-shop work.

MICROSTAMPING AS A DETERRENT:

Another argument I have seen is that microstamping could create a deterrent and shift criminals from semi-auto handguns to revolvers.  In essence this would mean a shift or reduction of a criminal’s effective firepower.

Plainly speaking firepower is the amount of damage you can cause within a given time frame. However, effective firepower is a combination of variables including the type of firearm, the ammunition, and most importantly the gun handling skill of the shooter.

Firing a revolver accurately takes more skill than a semi-auto handgun.  And when you have no skill at all in firing, odds are you are going to be limited in the damage you can cause.
Another point is revolvers are “dual action”; the criminal has to pull the trigger fully for each round fired where as semi-auto are typically single action firearms.

Most drive by shootings cause death by the fact that a hail of bullets is fired randomly within seconds and reloading is easy by exchanging a magazine.

What is good about microstamping is that AB1471 targets the growing use of semi-automatic handguns used to commit crimes.  Microstamping makes sense for that segment and if it creates a shift to revolvers, knives or baseball bats, that shift will at least give potential victims a fighting chance or possibly limits the chance of innocent people becoming victims of stray bullets.

MICROSTAMPING: PLANTED CARTRIDGE THEORY

Forensic investigators use crime scene reconstruction methods to analyze various patterns; scene evidence and projectile trajectories are used to track back to the firing location and to match projectile location to cartridge location, i.e. cartridge ejection patterns.  Projectile locations have a specific location and an angular trajectory (They can show movement of the shooter, angle and elevation of the firearm), so it is possible to match the two patterns.

In an exchange of gun fire; the criminal is firing the handgun and potentially moving at the same time.  These actions are mirrored in the pattern of the cartridge casings being ejected.  If the person then randomly drops or plants cartridges, those dropped cartridges would not follow the pattern that occurred during the actual action. 

A common criminal who commits a murder or engages in a fire fight, is not going to be in the right frame of mind to take into consideration these types of ideas.  Fight or flight response takes over. 

The other big issue with the dropped/planted cartridge scenario is that the physical evidence is analyzed; powder or gun shot residue (its type, age, and oxidation), oxidation of the cartridges themselves (fresh versus old), finger-prints on the cartridges, odd things (cartridge with pocket lint, dirt, fingerprints, odd primers, reload status) and the standard ballistic markings on the projectile (ejector marks, extractor marks, firing pin marks).  Most forensic professional tend to laugh at these ideas.  People who comment on these scenarios figure highly trained forensic examiners can’t tell a freshly fired cartridge from one that has been sitting on a firing range for a few weeks or months.

This scenario also requires that the criminal can locate a firing range, find the right caliber cartridge of the same vintage, make, fired from the same firearm that they own.
If the criminal reloads, they will need to use a similar powder and projectile consistent with that ammo and the same primer.  This is a tall order for the common criminal who truly cares less about these issues, since in their mind they will never get caught.

The planted cartridge scenario is not realistic for nearly all gang or moment of opportunity based heinous acts or crimes.

Another point is that planted cartridges have a history and by planting them at a crime scene the criminal is just leaving more leads to follow.  Maybe those planted cartridges will lead to the place where the cartridges were taken, maybe that range has video taping system (most do these days for liability), or requires people to show drivers license and sign a form to enter the range area.

By planting cartridges at the crime scene the criminal is providing further opportunities to recover good finger prints and law enforcement can use other data and network information to track the person down since most people who commit these types of crimes tend to have extensive police records and have fingerprints on file.

The fact is that planting cartridges is an interesting theory, but in reality, it doesn't happen now and modern forensic crime scene investigation methods are more than capable of overcoming this type of TV based scenario.

IMPACT TO LAW ABIDING CITIZEN:

Microstamping is a passive device, where no registry and no bureaucracy are required.  It uses the same trace system that law enforcement currently uses today and all of the info is held by the firearms industry.  There is no change to the legal owner’s liability or responsibility.

One specific invariable, is if you have your firearm stolen, with or without microstamping and it is subsequently found at a crime scene, it doesn’t matter; you are getting a knock at your door.  So, unless you are a very unlucky person who gets their firearms stolen this does not affect you.  Even if you firearm is stolen, this at least helps the police ID the firearm the first time it is used instead of years later.

I view this as the most benign technology possible to provide law enforcement with a new tool for identifying trafficking patterns, while maintaining firearm owner rights.

As for cost to the industry, we have press released that the technology will be provided to industry on a royalty free basis for semi-automatic handguns for commercial applications.  So there is no cost to use the technology by the industry.

People wonder why we did this.  The reason is simple; the patents cover other applications outside the field of firearms that we want to pursue.  To allow us to do that, we would provide a license to industry that covers only the firearm related application.

THE BENEFIT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT:

Law enforcement uses trace data like microstamping to pin point crime gun sources, which are either stolen firearms or straw purchased firearms.  The shorter the time between the first time the firearm is sold and the time it is identified is important data to map patterns of trafficking, to target firearm trafficking networks.

Microstamping if definitely an investment towards the future, providing firearm trafficking data within a shorter time frame, since microstamping identifies the firearm the first time it is used, instead of when it is first recovered.  Figuring the cost per firearm is about a couple cups of coffee at the worst case scenario.

Firearm trafficking becomes vulnerable to new data analysis techniques such as, Pattern and Link analysis as well as social network analysis, but only when the analysis of the data can form into patterns within a “narrower window of time”.

Microstamping is targeting the traffickers, the theft rings and the network.  Most people do not understand that the reason firearms get stolen from someone’s house is that for some reason those people are targeted.

It is not uncommon for firing ranges or gun stores to be staked out by criminal networks.  These criminals target those who have firearms, follow them home and find out their schedule and then steal the firearms.  In some cases firearms are stolen by people the owner knows.  So, when reporting this theft, this information (your range, people who have recently scene your firearms or asked about them) can be used in analysis to identify a possible theft ring operating in your area.

This is just like hunting terrorists; you need INTEL from all different sources to begin to develop a pattern, that pattern determines how to deploy resources more effectively.


COMMON CRIMINALS (CRIMINAL MASTERMINDS?):

One of the arguments people make about microstamping deals with the idea that common criminals have the ability to defeat microstamping.

There is always that opportunity, however, currently none of these criminals modify their firearms. 

We are not talking about premeditated murder, we are talking common criminals.  In the suburbs when firearm related murders take place, there tends to be sufficient evidence outside of the firearm evidence to pin point the murderer.

It is easy for people with firearm maintenance skills to conceive of ways to defeat a technology, but the reality is most people even if they have some knowledge, when handed a new firearm do not have a clue how to field strip the firearm.

At public demonstrations, I have handed a firearm to skeptics and asked them to take the firing pin out.  I supply the tools.  I get the same reaction,” the people say they are not familiar with that firearm!” or they say they have no idea how to do it.

There is a tendency by most people to project skill sets to others by simply stating that the firearm is easy to take part.  The reality is most intelligent “non-gun owner” people can not do it, unless they have the field stripping manual.

Since a majority of these firearms are stolen, there is no need for criminals to be concerned that the firearm will lead to them, which leads to the current situation on the streets … they do not modify the firearm, even when they use it over and over in criminal activities. 

I have been told of a situation where a firearm was picked up and found to match 4 different shootings.  Of course the prosecutor could only charge the man for the last crime, since there were no witnesses to the previous 3 incidents that could testify that the firearm was in teh criminals hands.

People say this will waste police efforts, but I am not sure how it wastes police efforts if they can identify the firearm the first time it is used.  As in my example, the police had to process the evidence in the previous 3 incidents, but that evidence can never be used for the conviction.  However, when the firearm is recovered that evidence can be matched to provide further data for law enforcement.

Microstamping is inexpensive and the data it can generate for pattern analysis is valuable to law enforcement.

Its impact to me and you is a minimal in comparison to new imaging technology that is being tested by the ATF - 3D confocal imaging of new firearms.

Microstamping negates the need for imaging of new firearms permanently.


Best regards,
Todd Lizotte

[myronman3]

while your intentions may be good,  you need to look at the bigger picture.

[jhm]

Todd :  Like you said in the beginning of your sales pitch (you are biased) I personally dont see any good reason to give the gun grabbers any foot hold, Period.  I dont smoke but I will use it as an example, at one time we could smoke on Aircraft, then it was no Cigars or Pipes, then no more smoking on the airplain, only in the terminals, Then only in the main terminal, now No Smoking in the terminal at ALL, your plan no matter how you try to sell it is just one of the first steps giving the LIBERALS another rung to their ladder of complete firearms removal, as far as who did what at most shootings even if you have reported your firearm STOLEN months earlier you are going to have HELL to pay to prove you had nothing to do with it, are you prepared to refund all the legal cost that a inocient person suffers??  Again like you said you were biased, and as you can see so am I and Im sure their are others who are BIASED.   JIM

[telizotte]

Hello myronman3 and jhm,



The bigger picture is 3D confocal imaging on the NIBIN backbone.  Microstamping negates the need for imaging of new firearms.

I believe my position is forward thinking, were as the NRA and NSSF are content that they solved the imaging issue.  They have not and it will be back, except this new 3D technology will be harder to kill, because it has very high resolution and all the problems with 2D imaging will be solved, including calibration issues.

I recommend people start reading the press releases on 3D ballistic imaging.

Microstamping is passive identification (no registration, all info remains at the manufacturer site) :  3D imaging is active identification and registration on a national level with a database controlled by the BATF.

I understand the thoughts about giving ground.  But, what ground is being given.  Firearms have the serial number on them.  So, microstamping places another number that is activated at the manufacturing site, which links to the serial number.  There is no change to the status quo.  The only gain is to law enforcement, so that they can id a firearm faster.  I am not sure about you, but in 17 years I have never had a firearm stolen.

Once again I am bias and this is my view or theory on what is coming down the pike.

Best regards,
Todd

[Redhawk1]

 telizotte, microstamping will be another tool used by law enforcement that will fail as the spent cartridge sold with guns required by some States. Maryland found out that they spent more time and money on a program and did not solve one crime.

Do you really think criminals care about any of this, hell they steal 95% of there guns and could care less what technology you come up with. A criminal already intends on breaking the law, so what is one more having a stolen firearm or a gun that imprints a number on the brass.

The only people effected is us the consumer and giving power to the Government by controlling us to do what they want us to do. It is another way to increase costs to gun owners, there goal is to price us out of gun ownership. Look at the recent 25% increase in ammo and shooting supplies. Sorry but you can keep you technology.

[SHOOTALL]

The NRA has elections so if enough get motivated and join they could vote in officers that would do as they wish !
How could a spent case be marked ? how about two firring pins one for the primer and one for the base of the case with a number on it ?
then how would they make sure they didn't get changed ?
next thing they will try might be a gps in every gun so they will know where it is at all times , that is except when it is inside , in a snow storm or on a cloudy day !
how many guns have been sold with a fired case supplied ? how many have been used to solve a crime ?

[Cheesehead]

Just another reactive, feel good, useless concept based on emotion.

Cheese

[SHOOTALL]

like midnight basketball ?

[S.B.]

The NRA has elections so if enough get motivated and join they could vote in officers that would do as they wish !
How could a spent case be marked ? how about two firring pins one for the primer and one for the base of the case with a number on it ?
then how would they make sure they didn't get changed ?
next thing they will try might be a gps in every gun so they will know where it is at all times , that is except when it is inside , in a snow storm or on a cloudy day !
how many guns have been sold with a fired case supplied ? how many have been used to solve a crime ?

I thought Wayne Lampeir had self appointed life time job? Where have you been?

[Redhawk1]

The NRA has elections so if enough get motivated and join they could vote in officers that would do as they wish !
How could a spent case be marked ? how about two firring pins one for the primer and one for the base of the case with a number on it ?
then how would they make sure they didn't get changed ?
next thing they will try might be a gps in every gun so they will know where it is at all times , that is except when it is inside , in a snow storm or on a cloudy day !
how many guns have been sold with a fired case supplied ? how many have been used to solve a crime ?

I thought Wayne Lampeir had self appointed life time job? Where have you been?

Again, what does the NRA or la pierre have to do with Microstamping?

[Mikey]

Redhawk1:  I sincerely apologize if you feel my comments were ludicrous.  I was not bashing any of the pro-gun organizations I belong to.  My point is that the organization (NRA, GOA, etc) needs to pick its battles and micro-stamping is an issue that gives the anti-gunners and those who question gun owners rights and preferences all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings thinking it will solve any crimes or be able to prevent any crimes at all.  For the NRA or the GOA to go widely public and rail against such an issue (this is not a widely thought of or known issue amongst the general population) might be self defeating because it would just raise an unnecessary concern amongst a segment of the widely 'unknowing' population.  My thought was that to argue against such a concern would further put gun owners and gun organizations into more bad light so why say much of anything at all about it and draw either unnecessary or unfavorable attention to it and us. 

I feel this issue may well self destruct and if it does why should we be the ones left standing in bad light like some monster with a bloody hook standing over some corpse.  If it does self destruct let it go away in its own defeat and if that means the gun organizations give it a 'aw shucks folks, it didn't work but we'll keep on working with the police to help somewhere', it just makes us look a lot better. 

Mr. Lizotte:  thank you for your very informative post.  I personally appreciate the time and effort you have made to try and explain all this to us. 

However, microstamping firearms, to me, is like trying to tattoo chickens to see if we can find out where the Salmonella came from.  Your technology is pretty ingenious but would have little effect except to create additional burdens to those of us who wish to own firearms.  You specified the cost for this technology would be $.25 - 3.00 per firearm.  That's pretty cheap on its face but hardly identifies all the costs that go into developing a successful tracking system of any sort - you forgot about the cost to the taxpayor (including gun owners) to implement such a system.  An example here would be New York State's Ballistic Tracking Program, which has cost the taxpayors millions and millions of dollars yet has failed to solve even one case.  Other states are dismantling their ballistic tracking systems for the same reason but in New York State, failed tracking systems are still seen as necessary and New York politicians have little difficulty with forcing the cost of unnecessary and failed systems onto the taxpayors.

I note that your technology does not include bladed instruments, which easily claim many more lives than guns and in this instance would not prevent anything from happening or likely solve anything.

I feel, on a rather crude technological base, that there exists sufficient material evidence to currently match empty cartridges to firearms and we have had the forensic technology long enough to identify the source(barrel) of a bullet. 

Your technology would have little or  no benefit to the gun owner - the 'status quo' you speak of is defined by local law enforcement, not the gun owner.  If law enforcement believes your technology is so superior it may well call for all law abiding citizens to surrender their handguns for micro-stamping analysis and if the individual firearm is not able to be effectively stamped (cost to the law or ease of application for them) it would be destroyed.  All your technology would have effected then is a disarming of the law-abiding citizen, exactly what criminals, democrats and liberals want. 

What I fail to understand about you people is why you believe that if you put some sort of a number or code on everything you can prevent anything adverse from happening.  You would tattoo chickens to prevent salmonella???  How about tattooing cattle to prevent mad cow disease.......  Oh, and let's not forget about tattooing children to prevent school dropouts and low educational scores.  Can you tattoo a blade to leave an indelible tracking mark???  Can you tattoo me to identify me as a gun owner (Can you hear nazi Germany???)

You are correct about the knock on the door, but ya got it backwards pal.  I have had firearms stolen - I immediately called the police who came and took a report and filed the necessary information.  Nobody ever came and knocked on my door about it - in fact, I even got one returned by the New York City PD.  But under your system that 'knock on your door' would be more like a jackbooted police patrol kicking it in to take your legal fireams away for microstamping analysis, and don't ever expect to see them again or be able to own another until the cops get the 'status quo' worked out.

The problem with a microstamping system is that it would fail to prevent any crimes, may not effectively aid in the resolution of a crime, places all the burdens on the gun owner and taxpayor and none on the criminal, or on the police to remain objective for that matter. This has nothing to do with crime control or prevention, it only deals with population (gun owning population) control JMTCW.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

Mikey, thanks for clearing that up, we are on the same page here.

As far as a stolen gun, I have had one stolen, I had 3 sets of contractors working in my house on various items. I had a gun in a night stand, after all the work was completed, I happen to check my nightstand and found the gun missing, so it does happen. It has been 3 years since that gun was stolen and I have not heard a thing back from the Police. The had the names of all the guys that were in my house during the time the gun went missing, still nothing. The Police were more concerned with my son than the people that were inside my house doing work, I told them my son would not touch my gun. He has is own guns and access to my gun safe that at that time help large amounts of cash, so it was not him.

[SHOOTALL]

REDHAWK 1 , nothing ! ain't that odd ?

[ncsurveyor]

Mr. Lizotte

Since a majority of these firearms are stolen, there is no need for criminals to be concerned that the firearm will lead to them, which leads to the current situation on the streets … they do not modify the firearm, even when they use it over and over in criminal activities.  .

So, despite current ballistics and casing identification processes, they still keep the gun for crimes?  Why bother micro stamping?  If they don't keep the gun, and chunk it after a crime, then why bother microstamping?

I have been told of a situation where a firearm was picked up and found to match 4 different shootings.  Of course the prosecutor could only charge the man for the last crime, since there were no witnesses to the previous 3 incidents that could testify that the firearm was in teh criminals hands.

So, they proved that the gun was used in three previous crimes but couldn't prosecute.  HOW is microstamping going to fix that??

People say this will waste police efforts, but I am not sure how it wastes police efforts if they can identify the firearm the first time it is used.  As in my example, the police had to process the evidence in the previous 3 incidents, but that evidence can never be used for the conviction.  However, when the firearm is recovered that evidence can be matched to provide further data for law enforcement.

How is this going to help?  They identify it in the first crime, contact the law abiding gun owner from which it was stolen, and they are back to square one.  If they process the cases and track it down the road, from crime to crime, all they know is that the gun was used in multiple crimes.  Can't prosecute the prior ones.

Pardon the cynicism, but just like any other gun law, all it does is create bureacracy and affect the law abiding.  I realize you have a sense of pride over creating something you perceive as useful, but its just another hastle.

[myronman3]

telizotte, microstamping will be another tool used by law enforcement that will fail as the spent cartridge sold with guns required by some States. Maryland found out that they spent more time and money on a program and did not solve one crime.

Do you really think criminals care about any of this, hell they steal 95% of there guns and could care less what technology you come up with. A criminal already intends on breaking the law, so what is one more having a stolen firearm or a gun that imprints a number on the brass.

The only people effected is us the consumer and giving power to the Government by controlling us to do what they want us to do. It is another way to increase costs to gun owners, there goal is to price us out of gun ownership. Look at the recent 25% increase in ammo and shooting supplies. Sorry but you can keep you technology.

sit down folks....

i am with you here, red.

[SHOOTALL]

lets face it gun control laws are proposed by people that want to feel good , get elected or make money ( be a paid head of a foundation ) for people that have knee jerk reactions but no realistic idea of how the criminal thinks or works !
The gun can't talk or defend it self or be offended and most important the only people who are affected are law abiding to begin with !
Talk about political holy ground !

[S.B.]

This sounds like preaching to the choir? Maybe, you need to get involved with your local politics and put you thoughts to work, in the public's eye?
Just like the Churches in our country, Pro Gun people have quite a few who are in church every Sunday but, are no good, back stabbing,  SOBs come Monday morning?
A wise man once said "Victory has a thousand fathers but, defeat is always an orphan". I think too many gun owners are waiting to be on the winning side after this battle is over, for financial gain, which ever side wins? I see a lot of this thinking today. That's the only reason I can see why we have over 50,000,000 guns in America today and only about 6,000,000 members in the NRA, GOA, etc.?

[jhm]

Todd :  You said after 17 years you have never had a firearm stolen, well thats great, however where on gods green earth do you think the criminal element are getting their guns??  They certainly arnt going into a legally run gunshop and filling out the necessary paper work that LAW ABIDING citizens are forced by the FEDERAL government to fill out, ( that form is a 4473 ) if it necessary for your sales pitch to the LIBERALS as to how great the micro stamping is.  I can call the police dept. in our small town from the pawn shop give them a serial # and in less than 2 minutes know if the gun is stolen, or been used in a crime ( dirty Gun) and if the party who brought it in is still standing there in short order he will be on the ground explaining to our Chief where he got the gun or will be hauled away.  Your explanation of the program sounds so STERIAL as if it cant hurt anything or anyone, but it does just add another chip taken away from the RIGHTS we honest gun owners hold deer to our hearts, think it over and look outside the box, there is more here than just making a few bucks at the expence of LIBERTY.   JIM

[myronman3]

todd:   again,  thanks for having the guts to talk with us.    alot of the guys here have put up some very valid points.   

the one i want to emphasize on is that they are our rights; ones that i bled for,  my father bled for,  my grandfather, and unfortunately my sons will most likely have to bleed for.   some of the best people this nation ever spawned died for us to have these rights.   

this isnt going to help anything,  it will create a even bigger bureaucracy at tax payer expense, and put yet another restriction on law abiding gun owners.   there will be no effect on criminals.     

think long and hard about what you are trying to make a career off of.  i, for one,  would rather die than be party to undermining our citizens rights.   

[telizotte]

Hello,

I am happy to explain the technology.  I am also willing to get into details.

First, if people do not believe in the honesty of 99.9% of law enforcement, I am certain I will not be able to convince everyone of the merits, but I will try.

Costs:

The codes are activated, i.e. stored into the ERP/MRP system when the serial number is logged in, at the manufacturing site (firearm manufacturers assembly floor).  There is no added cost, other than the bar-code is swiped off the part when it is kitted to the firearm assembly.  This is part of normal linking of the serial number.

All info is at the manufacturer, unless it is logged into the BATF Access2000 computer which was adopted by four different firearm manufacturers.  Other than that, BATF has to do its trace the same way, no new database.

Rights:

The microstamping is linked to the serial number, not sure how my rights change, if a firearm has the stamp or not.  Remember, the way firearms are matched now are by the unintentional markings.  Scratches and dings, which would still need to be done once a firearm is recovered.

Ballistic Imaging:

The Failures of MD and NY are due to the fact that 99.9% of gun owners do not commit heinous crimes and that imaging technology is flawed.  Microstamping is a passive device, not active and only shows up if found at a crime scene.

Stolen Firearms:

I agree stolen firearms constitute a source of crime firearms.  However, from what I have been briefed on, a majority of stolen firearms are acquired through organized theft rings, who stake out firing ranges, rifle clubs and gun stores.  They will identify an owner than follow them home, monitor the gun owners schedule and then burglarize the home.  Same with gun stores.

The rest are straw purchasers.  With the balance being the original purchaser / owner.

In Ireland, I have read that in a four year period, nearly 1100 firearms were stolen as described above. (Mostly rifles)

What does microstamping do?:

Mapping.  The saying goes "you don't go to war unless you have good maps."  Same goes for targeting criminal enterprises that traffic in drugs, humans and firearms.

Tactical mapping is a method of deploying law enforcement more effectively.  You should go to this site, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/maps/briefingbook.html,  to get an overview on mapping and why having "fresh INTEL" is important to targeting trafficking and criminal trafficking networks.

I am not sure I can explain it to your satisfaction, but I think this is a worthwhile endeavor in supporting law enforcement.  Like I stated, I am bias, but this allows law enforcement the chance to plot data and analyze trafficking patterns as soon as the firearm is used in a crime, which means that the source point is easier to identify or the source location, which goes back to theft rings operating in certain regions, counties or towns.  Microstamping is trying to shorten the time to crime, so that the information on the pattern is fresh, instead of 3 to 8 years old.

Financial Gain:

The firearm industry will be given a royalty free license covering semi-automatic handguns for commercial applications (i.e. semi-auto guns sold to citizens and law enforcement). 

I have of laugh at why you attack my rights grant to me as an inventor.  One of the greatest founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin, left us the institution of patents and the personal right of a patent to protect the ideas of individual citizens.

He made it clear that the only one who can get a patent is an individual person.  A corporation can not get a patent.  A corporation can purchase the rights to a patent or hold can have the rights of a patent transferred to itself, but it can not create or be awarded a patent.  The right can only be given to an inventor.

Mikey's Comments:

Tattoo a chicken, it is not quite analogous, but, Ok.

The key is firearms don't kill people ... people kill people.  I think we can all agree on that.  The issue is how do you stop the flow of firearms to criminals?  You seek sources of INTEL or "Data" that you can analyze to provide "situational awareness" of a region, county, town and right down to a street if the data is good. 

You should read Appendix J of the 2006 Army field manual, For Infantry Rifle Company.  It shows you how important INTEL is to any situation.

The issue with your analogies is that in every case you have witnesses.  Dad is sick, he's got mad cow, he ate with us at burger joint A, Burger joint A was working off shipment #23 of meat that week, shipment #23 was from lot #454 that was source from China Meats .. etc, etc.

If you have 45% of murders where there are no witnesses, but cartridges are left at the scene and you want to cut the flow of firearms, where do you start?  Once again firearms don't kill people, people kill people.  Most of these random killings have ties to organized gangs or other criminal networks.  Each layer or map is intermingled.  If you can have the firearm leave a lead to allow law enforcement to track the firearm to the source, you are able to identify where it came from and how far it traveled before being used in a crime.  INTEL is key to narrowing in on the network.

The more data points, the better the map, the easier to identify the network.

As shifting criminal to knives that is a good outcome.  I understand the technology doesn't work on revolvers as well as flintlock pistols.

I am not sure why people would be concerned about providing this data point, since it is the same as the serial number if your firearm is stolen.


Best regards,
Todd Lizotte

[Mikey]

Mr. Lizotte:  Sir, your language hints strongly at the development and implementation of a intrusive domestic surveillance and control program, with roots in special warfare operations designed for conduct against civilian targets, and one that is capable of being abused by overzealous law enforcement and used against both an innocent citizenry and the general population.

None attack the rights granted to you as an inventor.  Those rights are protected by the strength of the 2nd Amendment, the very rights and strength your design could easily be used to weaken.  Few ever doubt the intent of those who seek to contribute, unless such a contribution could be so easily misused by those who so earnestly seek its development.   

"You should read Appendix J of the 2006 Army field manual, For Infantry Rifle Company".  Sir - I am quite familiar with gathering combat field intelligence as an Infantry Company Commander, thank you.  However, this reference concerns me - are you considering training police organizations in military or paramilitary surveillance approaches and techniques prior to their conduct of some act of military-police warfare action civilian targets, or is this the general intent??? 

Your approach to reducing crime appears to be little more than a enhanced internal or domestic police surveillance and control program supported by military or paramilitary intelligence ideology.  Your language is strongly militaristic and appears focused on controls that would only effect the law-abiding citizenry.
 
Not my idea of how to maintain our freedoms Mr. Lizotte. 

[S.B.]

Stolen Firearms:


I agree stolen firearms constitute a source of crime firearms.  However, from what I have been briefed on, a majority of stolen firearms are acquired through organized theft rings, who stake out firing ranges, rifle clubs and gun stores.  They will identify an owner than follow them home, monitor the gun owners schedule and then burglarize the home.  Same with gun stores.


A lot of the guns used in crimes are in police department hands prior to the crime? Who catches the catcher?