Whats in your......Survival Battery

[SHOOTALL]

Depends on rifle used and ammo choice not to mention ability of trigger puller .
From what i have seen 600 yards is a good answer if all components are perfectly matched to long range shooting .
that said some with highly developed guns will stretch to 1000 yards but not with off the shelf guns .
But in the wars we are fighting with guns on scene that has not held true so they have re issued the M-14 to fill the gap.
I have owned 2 AR's both h-bar's neither was that great past 300 yards , both were before the heavy bullet transition took place to be fair to the platform . I find it odd that the military is seeking a replacement if the weapon is so great . If you research it will be evident that the gun was forced on the military by bean counters , not the best way to choose a tool IMHO .
You seem to love the weapon and that is fantastic ! If i have opened you thoughts toward other ideas great if not enjoy your choice ! But I will ask you a question or two in a real SHTF situation that is of long duration where spare parts are non existent which gun will most likely last the longest in a condition that can be used an AR or bolt gun ?
or if your gun was in long term storage which would most likely work right out of storage no cleaning or maintenance first
just pick it up and fire ?

[SharonAnne]

Shootall, your hypotheses are faulty. spare parts ARE available. the AR15 is the most widely distributed rifle in America. they will not disappear. neither will the spare parts. Also you presume I have made no preparations to maintain what I have.

In a TEOTWAWKI long term situation, populations will decline drastically. Survivors will SHOP in the remains of buildings,homes, stores. Durable goods are just that, durable. Machine parts will not vanish. They may be hard to find but they will exist. And, parts for any bolt rifle will be harder to find. Why? Because they are less popular. There are many more types for the number of them that exist. But then, YOU will have parts for YOUR rifle so you WILL be well served by it.

Any of MY rifles in long term storage would fire immediately, no cleaning or maintainance. but again you presume a faulty premise; rifles will be stored in unserviceable condition.  War or military surplus rifles in long term service were and are often caked in heavy grease. No rifle in that condition will work. However, I know of no civilians who store rifles in that condition.

You seem to like setting up narrow, unrealistic scenarios to support your contentions.

Regarding the re-issue of M14s. They are no magic wand. They are no more accurate now than they were 50 years ago. Our current conflict in the sand box has shown us we need at least 2 general issue rifles. The M4 serves one job well: FISH as the Brits call it. Fighting In Someones House. Short, handy, it serves.  The other job is the open area rifle. Yes, M14s are being issued sporadically. However, the M16A4, with the standard A2 length barrel, and a flat top receiver with Picatinny rail,topped by a scope is doing the intermediate range trooper well. By that I mean to about 7-800 yds.

Beyond that a sniper is called for, and yes, that is most often in 7.62x51mm. Again, the military is looking to replace this cartridge as well. The 300WM is in use by the Navy. The .338Lapua Magnum is in experimental use. And others such as the .408CheyTac and .416Barrett are being looked at.

Some branch of our military is always looking to replace our current issue weapon. Now it is SOCOM. With the M16 it was Air Force looking for something to replace the M14 for perimeter security use. From there the Washington wiz-kids, like Macnamera put the M16 into general issue.

No, I do not love my AR15. I just know its' and My capabilities and am confident in each. This will make you happy. Part of my TEOTWAWKI battery is a Remington 600 in .308W.  I do not discount the bolt action rifle. I just know which one I want within arms reach at all times.  Just as I want my ParaOrdance or Colt .45acp on my hip.

When the AR10 platform is brought up to the reliability of the AR15, I may retire my AR15 and 600 Remington.

[SHOOTALL]

You assume I am wrong but you must not have read what i wrote , your idea that population will decline is a good point but it in itself will force survivors to flee areas of death do to the fact that sickness will be un-avoidable . General Mosby of Civil War Fame bragged that all but his uniforms were furnished by the north so picking up rations and parts are nothing new . But as i stated if you find yourself on the run and none are available i will stick to the KISS , ie. bolt gun . If one wants to really get into what it takes a beautiful woman may need no more than her looks to have a chance where some may be doomed from the start .
As far as shopping - after reviewing films of what happens after riots and natural disasters it seems that all resources are liberated rather quickly , and the fact that being in such places will make you a target makes little or no sense .
Support for my own scenarios , ( now that hurt ) should one not dream up the worst possible condition they may face then make it worst to see if in fact their plan of action and equipment will pass the acid test ? If i am conversing with those who are sunny day survivalist please excuse me for rocking your boat .
and maybe as far as accuracy in the M-14 both metal and manf. tech. have improved so guns today may be better but that said they never suffered the problems displayed by the AR/M-16 family and were accurate .
re-issue of the M-14 , no magic wand MAYBE ! but its the only wand in inventory that will do the job ,
And like i stated the box stock Ar has to be modified to get much past 3-400 yds
AR's most widely distributed in America MAYBE ! , but how many are Quality weapons ? how many are kitchen table abortions ? how many are cheap junk pawned off on want-to-Bee's at gun shows  ?
Parts , yes parts are ever where but what do they fit ? what quality ? what gas system should one buy ?, will the tools be around to replace parts ? etc. If you want to be more correct and not make a broad statement to make your views look good then it could be stated that the AR/M-16 platform IN ITS MANY AND VARIED CONFIGURATIONS  ( MANY NOT SHARING PARTS INTERCHANGEABILITY ) has become one of the most produced rifes .  To have an AR for all the conditions would take a golf bag full of the things .
In reality anyone who makes it will have more to consider what gun and in fact will most likely pick up what ever they find and use it until it breaks or ammo is expended discard it and then secure another .
I would be more passionate about my knife than a gun !
One last thing I don't presume anything ! Nor try to make a pet tool fit every hypotheses . I do enjoy the debate and hope we never get to be tested by  the reality of survival .

[SharonAnne]

Shootall, you want to talk of rack issue M16s not being good for much past 3-400 yds but the M14s being used ARE highly accurized. As to modern manufacturing being improved you are forgetting; the M14 are not NEW; they are 50+ yrs old. You will not give the M16 the benefit of the same such accurization?  "many not sharing parts interchangability"  I am having a hard time thinking of what AR parts those could be. there are some custom trigger groups, and a new piston/gas system, but AR parts are made fit all ARs. that is the attraction of the AR. it is the small block chevy of the rifle world. parts may need fitting but very little and the tools needed are small and easily carried.

am I a "sunny day survivalist"? well,,,,,,,,,,yes. I live in Phoenix, AZ. "rocking your boat" LOL Rivers in AZ seldom have water in them. When they do it is on the 5 o'clock news.  the likelihood of crossing an ice swollen river is non-existant in the Sonora desert. also, in an emergency there is no 'bugging out' of metro Phoenix. The few roads out of the county are jammed with traffic on a normal day. In a SHTF situation it will be gridlock. It is gridlock out of town on any holiday weekend. All I can do is hunker down. Fortunately I live in a concrete walled house. Since my partners' daughter is here there is no relocating beforehand.  I prepare for what could happen, not what might happen. It might snow in Phoenix but it happens so seldom it is not something to spend a lot of time on. Not worth buying mukluks.

Regarding looters: I saw looters stealing tvs and dvds but  I saw no one looking for small parts in the back of a gunshop. I would look there, after things quiet down, but not while the zombies are roaming the streets. But then,  I am not sure what I would be looking for since I have what I need. Perhaps items to barter.

You belittle the need for "battle" preparations but it is the feral mob that is the most danger. Not starving if you don't get that deer at 600yds.  If I prepare for every possibility I will need a diesel tractor and 50ft. trailer for everything I might need. 

The idea of carrying your "bugout bag" and a bolt rifle is highly romanticized, and totally impractical. If you are reduced to such a state you are on the run, hiding,no support. In short,a casualty. To survive TEOTWAWKI you must either be well prepared where you are or move to where you want to be. There will not be any walking to your retreat. You will die.

It all depends on what causes TEOTWAWKI. If it is worsening world politics or widening war, leave now. If it is a nuclear attack, or wide spread biological disaster there will be no reloacating.

Don't expect that running to your hunt cabin will make you welcome in the community. You are just another stranger running from the big city. Move to where you want to be. Get established in the community. BE someone YOU would want next door.

[DCRthe3rd]

During my days of roaming the world wide web , I found few things get blood boiling and the sabers rattling like the old "pick one gun" threads , sometimes it seems like you'd just be better off kicking a mans dog than offering an opinion on that matter

[SharonAnne]

just realized i said it backwards. i prepare for what could, not what might. the 'it might snow in Phoenix' idea.

[SharonAnne]

i still got it backwards   what might happen before what could. It 'could' snow in Phoenix. but not likely. 

[SharonAnne]

Edelweiss. sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Defense and working are properly parts of a "survival battery". And "hardware store ammo" IS an excellent barter item.  A box of .30-30 may bring a handsome price a year after the 'big one'.  And .22rimfire COULD become the small unit of currency. The chance of barter ammo being used against you is not too serious. If there is barter, there is commerce and the beginnings of the return of civilization.  Survivors WILL band together. It is living long enough to get to the post apocalypse resurgence of civility that is the concern. Proper preparation will keep one from extreme situations, like a winter river crossing, having no magazines, etc. That is what preparations are for, preventing a bad situation from becoming an emergency.

SOOOO. Returning to the beginnings of this thread:

Defense- my trusty AR-15 and, interchangeably Para Ordnance .45acp or Colt 1911a1/.45acp

Working- Remington 600 in .308w. revolver S&W 686+ in .357 Remington magnum

i HAVE all of these and sufficient ammunition.

A major caliber StermGewehr in 7.62 nato or .30-06 would be fine.  I am not willing to bet my life on a 9mmP. not when I can have a .45acp.

In a working rifle the .30-06 will do nicely. IMO a magnum has no place in a survival battery. The standard .308s will do anything you want a hunting round to do.

I have shot the .44mag and am proficient with it. But i do not LIKE it. The .357R will do all i am WILLING to do with a hunting handgun. To the firearms I have I would like to add a Marlin 39A. It is a magnificently accurate .22rf and I am sad I traded away the one I had. But, it is very heavy for a .22rf. More practical I think would be a Ruger Mk III heavy barrel with a good scope/red dot.

There, the thread is back on track. Opinions?

[SharonAnne]

i have been giving my defense pistol and working pistol choices some thought.  I have an extremely reliable Para Ordnance 9x23w. with factory ammo it is as powerful as the .357  125gr load that made its' one-shot-stop reputation. winchester white box 125gr. jsp and silvertip 125gr. jhp each chrono at 1500 fps. a little faster than the .357/125gr load. so i would have one pistol to do both jobs. one less item in inventory to maintain.

Thoughts??

[SHOOTALL]

that ammo should be easy to get in the ruins of a Wally world after a SHTF day !
after the dressing down i got you knew it would come !one other thing the folks in New Orleans ended up all over the country after the storm , some here in VA. just food for thought !
and a nine mm bullet shape for use in an auto vs. a 357 mag bullet - has a different effect on impact . bullet speed ain't the whole story .

[SharonAnne]

true,but they each use 125gr silvertips designed for 1400+fps.  supply of ammo is not a problem. I have 250 rds of each (125gr jsp/125gr jhp). Also, i reload. have the components for about 5k of 9x23. kinda doubt i could use up that much pistol ammo.  I would keep the .45acp and the 357rem. just put them in long term storage

You lost me on  the part about the people of New Orleans being spread all over the country.

[SHOOTALL]

You seem to feel you will always be at home when things go bad . My point is with many we may not . Often if people are not just away as part of a normal life they may be moved as the result of an event . It would be nice to have access to a pre-established supply of goods but that ain't always the case . I can offer that in my area we just experienced 8 tornado's , some areas were destroyed , 200 people went to hospitals with severe injury .  The worst part the next day these people were allowed 10 min. on their own property to gather what they wanted and then were escorted out of the area for several days while the authorities went thru. to make it safe . All the more reason to have a stash in a safe deposit box or such , in a different area . A 1911 , 100 rounds of ammo and $ 500.00 might get ya thru.
I don't mean to start arguments just open people to reality .

[SharonAnne]

in spite of the poor access to good roads out of the county, i live here for just such reasons. we don't have tornados, hurricanes, seldom have floods and when we do they require very few to relocate.

it goes back to what i said a while back, move to where you would retreat to. be someone of value to the community. yes, living in a metro area is less than ideal but natural disasters are a small possibility here. my neighbors know I am a nurse and value my opinion. In the larger community of practical shooters I am known as someone of shooting ability, integrity and honesty. They too value my knowledge as an RN.

I know it is hard to leave a historic home area. Not many are willing to leave friends and family to relocate to a more desirable locale that has stable weather, stable economy, jobs, affordable housing. All of these things are very desirable but leaving friends and family is not something to be taken lightly.


Continuing with my thoughts on sidearms. I am rethinking using the 9x23W as a do-all. Yes, it will match the .357R with 125gr bullets. However, the 9x23W cannot handle 158 or 180gr bullets and for deer or black bear I would like to have a 180gr Partition rather than a 125gr Silvertip. A .308W is much better but the advantage of the sidearm is you have it all the time. It is funny how a deer will stand and look at you as you drive by on a tractor.

Shootall, I am beginning to think you and I are the only 2 on this thread. Come on people! Let's see what you have to say.

[SHOOTALL]

I agree with most , i do live sorta out , but have places to go both in and out of state . Lets say arrangements have been made . You sound set up but keep in mind some fool with a dirty bomb could cause you to move . How would the 10 mm work for you , if a 40 S&W bbl was also fitted ?
And as far as deer i have almost run them over in tall grass with my tractor !
People post alot on weekends and nights , they will speak up !
It is nice to debate with someone with a strong commitment to their own ideas yet still friendly about it , not always the case here !
By the way after the mention of AZ. i went home and put sun screen in my kit ! never know where ya will end up when ya bug out !

[SharonAnne]

   LOL!!!

[SHOOTALL]

what ever !

[SharonAnne]

AZ is not all sunny.  we have 12,000 ft mountains that get 30 feet of snow in a good winter.

re: the dirty bomb. well........... then I am SOL. go back to my comments on gridlock.

However, I agree with your sentiment that you may not always be near your home if/when things go bad.  You could have all your gear in checked baggage, have the plane belly in, you survive and your gear is spread over 3x1 miles of swamp.

[SharonAnne]

i had not thought of a 10mm 1911.  people write well about its' capabilities as a hunting round.  defensively it will do anything a .40S&W will do, though over penetration is a problem with heavier bullets. the bullets that are desirable for hunting. Although in a survival situation I guess over penetration for defense is much less of  problem.

[rzwieg]

Well I have an M1a, an AR-15, and a M700 in 30/06.

Shotguns are one M870 and two single shots, all 12 ga.

Handguns? Two M1911s and a Glock 19.

Plus a couple of .22s, an air rifle, mags, ammo, cleaning supplies, and spare parts to last a long time.

Truth is, in my area I think rimfires and traps would be more useful.

I sure hope the S doesn't HTF.

[rzwieg]

I've met folks who swear by the G20. I don't know if a 10mm 1911 is being made anymore. You'd have to have a pretty good stash of it layed back.

1911s feel good in my hand and I'm comfortable with them. I love 'em. But unlike 1911s, my G19 has never jammed. I also suspect that 9mm rounds would be easier to find than .45 ACP so I split the difference.

[SharonAnne]

RZ, nice to see a post by someone else.

Split the difference, that is cute. How does splitting the difference affect the availability of ammunition? I am confused.

On the basis of how many rds fired do you rate the reliability of the glock/1911?

  Colt has reintroduced the 10mm in the Delta Elite. It has been available from one manufacturer or another pretty much all the time. I would just build a top end for one of my 1911 frames.

We have overlooked the usefulness of the air rifle; and traps can be very useful depending on the part of the country.

RZ I think none of us want upheaval. The acquiring of firearms and supplies is just another form of insurance. It is something we buy that we hope we never need. I have what I think will serve me well and, I hope, these discussions are just intellectual exercise. Fun to talk about what we prefer over what others prefer, but at the same time hoping the need for them never arises.

[rzwieg]

OK, SharonAnne in response to your questions.

9mm is the most available pistol cartridge in the world. 45 ACP may be more effective, but presently and for several years now, the Parabellum is very common and cheap. It's so cheap, buying it is more cost effective than reloading. If I'm separated from my supplies, finding 9mm might be easier. Better than throwing rocks.

When i started using 1911s, it was standard procedure to send it to a 'smith for reliability and accurizing. Things are different now with Kimber and other makers putting more affort to fix those "issues", eh em.

One of my Colts has jammed due to faulty magazines and ammunition O.A.L. being to short. The other had a cheesy recoil spring and a replacement took care of that. Each has around 3000 rounds through them. At local matches I've seen others have similar problems. I've also seen Glocks, Smith & Wessons, Beretta's and others stovepipe, double feed, etc. Incidents like that make me scratch my chin.

After about 1000 rds my Glock has not burped ....yet. I'm impressed.

Bet you've read Jeff Cooper and Mel Tappan? 

[SharonAnne]

I agree the 9mmP is way better than throwing rocks. I do wonder about the need for resupply though. I typically have 100rds in magazines for my 9x23w. If I load all of them it is about 250rds. I have 15 reliable 8rd mags for my .45acp-90rds. My opinion- the chances of expending that much pistol ammunition and still being alive is pretty slim. Resupply seems less urgent.

Regarding reliability: today the most reliable pistols are those that the owners have not tinkered with. Time was that the 1911 was sold with some pretty poor workmanship. No more. Todays shooters demand a reliable pistol out of the box. For $1,000+ it had better work!

It has been about 5 yrs since I shot regularly. My health went in the toilet. But our Tuesday night paper and steel matches brought out as many as 160 shooters. It is the home range for some of the best in the world. We saw every pistol imaginable; every malfunction imaginable too. In most cases the less 'gunsmithed' the pistol was,the more reliable. This is not to demean professional 'smiths. They are true artisans. But too many 'shooters' think because they can change a few parts, they can 'tune' their extractor, ejector, do a trigger job.

For autoloading pistols reliable magazines are imperative. I have been using the same 15 Metalform magazines for over 10yrs before I semi-retired my .45. I trust them totally.

1,000 rds without a burp. Good. 'Back in the day' that was one week of practice. Do Glock mags still have a reputation for splitting? I hope they have that resolved.

Mel 'survial what?'    'Col.Guru' who??

[SHOOTALL]

Glad you saw the humor in the sun.
Trapping - I live in a county that allows trapping year round for some critters and i do trap from time to time for fun . It is not the surefire always get your critter deal some make it out to be . In a critter rich area it will get you by but if you are moving or in a bad area you better hunt as you go .
I now have the Glock it works well for back up gun while hunting , gun to have while 4 wheeling and in Va. we can't have a rifle or shotgun loaded in cities or alot of counties so the 10 makes a nice truck gun . why a truck gun ? well i work in and around a city that was often #2 and sometimes #1 murder capital of the USA , we haven't been on top for a while but are still making the short list . We have had people confess to shooting someone just to be the first to do so in a new year .
I agree we don't want a SHTF day ! NEVER !!!!!
and if we make the best plans and have the most supplies we may need resupply still !
General Mosby of the CSA gave the best solution , live off the backs of the enemy !

[SharonAnne]

Shootall, I am confused. You demean my desire for a combat rifle and tell me it is best to avoid a fight. And now, you counsel taking what you need from someone else, who needs it as much as you do, and will protect THEIR property from a THIEF.   SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,you will have to fight to take it. You make my head spin.:}

BTW, the "enemy" you speak of will be your fellow Americans just trying to survive.

[rzwieg]

SharonAnne, I don't shoot as often as I should either and no longer compete. Family obligations and financial constraints prevent me from wearing out guns and holsters now. Sigh.

"Home range for some of the best in the world" eh?....

Arizona?...

I get the feeling you're pretty well set.

I live in a rural area with plenty of edible critters so traps, rimfires and air rifles be the most important tools here. This isn't a suburb of Milwaukee, yet.

But I think it's silly not to have a fighting rifle at your disposal. If one checks out the incidents of violent assault, multiple attackers are not uncommon and in desperate circumstances I see it as even more likely. It's a dreaded cliche, but I want the odds in my favor.

[SHOOTALL]

Well if ya can't take someone else not caring for your choice then you might need to re-think your choice ?
Don't forget my choice was low on your list ! ( but i still stand by it ) . Sorry i did not know you were offended most resort to name calling and this had not . Oh well !
As far as taking things to survive , well I have to say if i expend my ammo defending myself against a group of thugs using their supplies wouldn't bother me in the least . And consider in the end one will not be as SANE as when food is plentiful . Being a nurse i would have thought you would have known the parts of the body and brain that change to survive during times of starvation .
Americans rob , rape and kill other Americans every day Guess it will be the same in worst than bad times !

By the way the 10mm has some lower power loads developed for the FBI , loads that brought about the idea for a 40 S&W . They may meet your need in some cases .

[SharonAnne]

name calling? hardly. one who takes what is not his, from one who rightly owns it, is a thief. i didn't call you a thief. i had thought those in this forum aspired to being better humans, not thugs. if you wish to be a thug, so be it.

 scavenging off the losers of a fight is just resupply, not stealing.

there is nothing in starvation that causes one to steal, rape or murder. starvation does not cause insanity. as an RN I KNOW this.

Gen. Moseby did not live off the backs of his enemies. he stole from civilians who had no part in the fighting. as did the Federals.


I am aware of the fbi work with lower power loads. for me it was current events, not history.

RZ,yes, some of the best in the world, in Arizona, Phoenix area. if you would like details you may email me. can we IM on this site?

[SHOOTALL]

his weapons , powder , ball ,horses and some food came from Yankees ! War is hell get over it !
When one starves parts of the body slow down , as this happens reason suffers . This is why humans who would not think of killing and eating another human do so with little thought , some say it is a defense system for us . If you are starving you may find yourself thinking different !
So the reduced load offended you ? Excuse me for not reading peoples mind !

[SharonAnne]

excuse me? i was offended by what?