Author Topic: Murphys Law and a Crappy TC barrel (Read 6064 times)

Keith L · « **Reply #30 on:** October 22, 2007, 12:32:33 PM »

Quote from: sweetwyominghome on October 22, 2007, 09:08:09 AM

Keith L wrote: "I didn't say and I don't recall anyone else "critical" of Bergara."

Really? What about this: "I hope someone does try and report on this new barrel, but I agree with Davemuzz that I likely won't own one....Fact is these are not fine Spanish arms, but cheap Spanish barrels"

Any idea who said that?

Perhaps if you had quoted the entire thread instead of just a line or two it would have made more sense. The cost of the barrels (much cheaper than TC) was a major selling point. One post compared them to custom Spanish shotguns. I merely pointed out the obvious.

Where in this thread did I or anyone else ask for anything except clarification?

I am done with this thread. Post all you want, but I won't be spending any more time on it.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #31 on:** October 22, 2007, 01:58:52 PM »

Ladobe-

My experience with Bergara spans more than a barrel or two. But it seems that reply is gone for whatever reason(s).

As to someone being critical of Bergara, my previous post hits squarely on that point. The poster did not say they were inexpensive or that the quality came at a rate lower price than TC barrels. He flatly said they are "cheap barrels."

And that statement came from a moderator who had never, ever even owned or worked with one.

BobinIL · « **Reply #32 on:** October 22, 2007, 02:32:52 PM »

Quote

Why the custom barrels? As a serious wildcatter I had to turn to the custom makers for my barrels because TC just doesn't chamber my wildcats. And all but a very few of my custom barrels have been wildcats. It's true I buy and use very few TC factory barrels anymore, but only because it is also true that I shoot very little other than my wildcats now days. I still own a bunch of factory barrels and all of them performed fine when I did shoot them.

Well you obviously have way more money to spend on guns than I do since you can afford several $400.00 custom barrels and $200.00 custom reloading dies for all those wildcats. I guess the working man can't comment on a barrel that may fit his budget since we aren't experienced with all of these high dollar exotic barrels. A bergara barrel probably isn't for you since it isn't a super exotic wildcat. I guess some of the working people that have to strain their budget to afford a rifle will just need to save a few more months to get to run with the big dogs and buy that custom barrel.

30-06man · « **Reply #33 on:** October 22, 2007, 03:53:16 PM »

Begara, Bullberry, MGM, and T/c makes good barrels. humans make them.. humans make mistakes. so there will always be a problem. begara has had very little problems yet and seem to be a cheaper barrel that turns out groups as good as your $400 wildcat barrels. ever think that you maybe a little shocked or too proud to say that a $200 barrel will shoot just as good IF not better than yours? its hard to find wlidcat barrels but they can be found and i bet Begara will make custom barrel sometime in the future when they get the company going well. but if you are too proud, too scared to try the barrel then you should not be bashing them. simple as that

Ladobe · « **Reply #34 on:** October 22, 2007, 07:51:14 PM »

SWH -

Since I never saw the posts by you concerning your experiences with Bergara barrels that you refer to (I assume on another thread), I can not and did not comment based on those posts by you. So your comments are misdirected when aimed at me. When I referred to critical, I was referring to the thread author who used the term directed at me, and who started this all by ranting and later raving about things he has so little experience with that his opinions on them don’t have any credibility with me.

BobinIL -

So am I suppose to apologize for buying custom barrels or moving into the wildcats many years ago? Dream on. I bought most of them during my working lifetime when I still had plenty of mouths to feed and bills to pay. And BTW some of the TC barrels were more like $650. The fact that I saved to be able to afford them most of my life and you choose not to is not my problem. 50 years ago I also bought cheap and made do as best as I could. But a love for long range shooting and hunting (that has lasted a lifetime) soon had me scraping for every penny to buy the best in firearms, optics and components – something that is required when you want to consistently hit small targets at very long ranges.

No doubt for the everyday shooter/hunter the factory barrels will get the job done just fine. They did for me when I first started shooting Contenders in 1969 and until the ranges got long and the targets small.

Commenting on whatever is certainly anybodies right on these open forums. But doing so as a rant against TC and later a rave for Bergara when you have almost zero experience with either of them just doesn’t let your comments carry much weight with me.

...
Bottom line… buy and use whatever barrels you want. Makes no difference at all to me. But don’t rant about those you really have no experience with to those of us who have used them with great success for decades unless you do want an argument.

Ladobe · « **Reply #35 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:04:50 PM »

30.06man -

Do you really believe a sloppy SAMMI spec chamber verses a custom tight chamber (often cut for a particular case/bullet/load), or an also ran barrel blank verses a premium blank makes no difference in a barrels precision when shooting it? If so then I guess factory ammo is every bit as accurate as hand loads tuned to a particular firearm as well.

Scared – hardly. Proud – you betcha (of both my shooting abilities and what my custom barrels will do). I know from long experience that my custom barrels will easily out shoot factory barrels, especially at long ranges. And that is not just idle keyboard talk – I can back it up with lots of real life experiences both on paper and in the killing fields in front of many different experienced witnesses I have shot matches and/or hunted with.

I never “bashed” the Bergara barrels, nor did I bash TC factory barrels or those from any other maker. What I did say was that until Bergara barrels prove themselves in the hands of a number of experienced users I consider credible, I have no interest in them. And that works both ways. I’ve had enough of my experienced friends have so many problems with custom barrels from certain makers the last few years or firearms from certain MFG’s that I also don’t buy or use their products any more. I stick with what I know works for me.

When Bargara is making and shipping their barrels in quantities like the other makers do they will ship their share of bad barrels just like everybody else has. That is a very common widget no matter who makes barrels for TC's - they all have turned out bad barrels at times.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #36 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:13:42 PM »

Ladobe-

My post that disappeared was on the automotive thread -- i.e., the Bergara thread that evolved (or dissolved) into foreign versus American-made autos and went on for several pages with no clear direction. I have no idea why it is there no more.

Ladobe · « **Reply #37 on:** October 23, 2007, 12:22:25 AM »

SWH -

Have no idea what happened to your post(s) you refer to as I don't visit that forum and so never saw them. But I can tell you as a past moderator of several forums on this board that only Admin (or possibly now a Global Moderator - which GBO never had when I was a mod here) can remove a post entirely. That forums regular moderator (unless global) can do no more than edit a post for improper content. So assuming Keith is not the moderator of that forum and because he is not a global mod, he could not have removed nor edited your post(s) on that forum. He could however comment on it with the exact same level of power that you and I can as members of GBO. So my suggestion is to contact Admin direct via PM if you want to know what really happened to your post before pointing fingers at anybody. I know what it feels like as a moderator to be accused of deleting or altering posts when in fact they were deleted/altered by Bill himself without letting me know he was doing it.

This post is meant to help you understand how it works on this board and to protect the innocent, so please take it that way.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #38 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:19:11 AM »

Ladobe wrote: "So my suggestion is to contact Admin direct via PM if you want to know what really happened to your post before pointing fingers at anybody."
-----

Ladobe: I never suggested anyone deleted the post -- and I never thought Keith did.

Weird things happen on the web, and posts have been known to occasionally vanish.

To reiterate so as you don't continue to assume things: I NEVER said anyone may have deleted a post. I sure as heck didn't "point fingers."

I resent the implication.

And lastly, there would have been no reason to edit the post as none of its content could have been deemed inappropriate.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #39 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:26:10 AM »

Ladobe wrote: "This post is meant to help you understand how it works on this board and to protect the innocent, so please take it that way. "

I certainly appreciate your "offer" to help me "understand." But I probably have a better grasp of "how things work" around here than you do as I've witnessed it from the very beginning.

BobinIL · « **Reply #40 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:03:54 AM »

I intend to start another post with a range report that includes pictures of targets and my rig when I have time to get back to the range. I still believe that these types of reports are useful to people trying to make decisions on what to purchase. I certainly hope that it does not turn into the pi$$ing match that this thread has become.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #41 on:** October 23, 2007, 07:17:17 AM »

Bob-

Please do. Those type of first-hand reports are tons more useful than the armchair quarterbacks who have strong opinions but with no experience to substantiate them.

Midwayusa.com also has a place for product feedback, even if the item did not come from them. You may want to post there as well.

Looking forward to seeing your next report...

Also, there's another Bergara owner here on GBO who has a 7mm-08. He sent me a private e-mail this morning. He wanted to post his results but now won't because he is afraid he'll "ruffle some feathers," as he said.

Nonetheless, the targets he sent me were great. He was getting sub-MOA with 3 different factory loads.

I hope he changes his mind and decides to post his results as well.

30-06man · « **Reply #42 on:** October 23, 2007, 11:45:53 AM »

Ladobe I know for a fact some of my "cheap factory" barrels can out shoot your custom barrels. The fact is that just because someone like MGM makes it doesn't mean its any better. Sure they are not this "premium quality" as you would probably say. You just can handle the facts that something like a 30/06 or a .308 can out shoot your wildcats. A .308 and 30/06 are long range guns just so some misinformed people on here will know. Just because it quality have wildcat or wsm or magnum behind it magnum mean it isn't' good at long ranges.

Graybeard · « **Reply #43 on:** October 23, 2007, 01:40:41 PM »

Quote

My encore 45cal muzzle loader factory barrel will shoot 3/4inch off at bench at 125yards and 1inch at 125 off hand.

I hope you don't SERIOUSLY expect ANYONE here to believe you are a good enough shot to shoot SUB MOA FREEHAND.

robinr · « **Reply #44 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:44:29 PM »

Got my encore shooting now (Thread "Encore Problem"). I have a 7mm-08 Bergara as well as a custom shop in 257 Roberts. Both barrels are shooting great for me. I have been reloading for over 20 years and have the Bergara shooting under 1 inch at 100, and the 257 about one inch at 100. Guys lets all buy and shoot what we want and not worry about others. That' why we live in America.
Robinr

Mac11700 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:14:55 PM »

Gentlemen...If I may...

I am a big fan of Bergara barrels...I have 6 of them...all for my Optima Elite...They are well crafted barrels...with minimum spec'd chambers & bores...Are they perfect...no...but pretty darn close...and yes...they can and do shoot exceptionally well for me...and most other folks who bought them...Not all mind you...but most...Are they as good as some of the awesome custom barrels being produced for the T/C's...That all depends on what you take into consideration as being " Just as Good "...There are many factors involved in this thought process...and certainly it won't be the same for everyone...To some they will be...to others they won't...So...for those who seem to be getting agitated...try to see each others point of view please...

That being said...I would like to add...it will be some time before the Bergara plant will be producing as many calibers as available form the T/C custom shop or any of the other custom makers...if at all...It just cost too much for their diamond honing process to accommodate all of the various calibers...and they most likely won't be offering smaller than the 223 calibers either...

As with any new company...it will take some time for them to get market recognition and market share with their product...but if they do keep introducing new calibers and keep their Q/C up...in time...they will become a worthy competitor in the single shot field...Do problems exist with some of the barrels...sure...it happens...but they do have outstanding customer support and will make things right with problems crop up...just as any good company will...

While some in the past have slammed BPI for the old CVA issues...I do believe that most here that are asking for some more reports to come out on them will give them a fair shake when they do...wither they have 10 T/C barrels...or hundreds...so when they say 1 or 2 reports isn't enough to base open ended statements about the product...they have that right...and those who have 1 barrel...should make it known (as it was later ) that their opinion is very favorable...Folks have a right to with hold judgment on them and state it as such...but not to arbitrarily slam the product either en light of no personal experience with it...

Lastly...I am a global Moderator...and I haven't edited or deleted any post...and we really can't delete them...but merely move them to a place that non moderators can't see...for Graybeards disposition on them...There he will decide if it stays or goes...not us...

Mac

bulzaye · « **Reply #46 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:31:05 AM »

I am so glad I read all this thread. I own a handi IN 243 that will shoot under an inch groups at 200 yards. What an idiot I was to buy that thing for only I am ashamed to say 200 dollars for the whole gun. Man was I ripped off. I will put it out front with a free sign on it this very day. Thank you for setting me straight and to understand that more money has to mean better quality and of course better groups. I have seen the light. Nothing but custom barrels for me from now on. I can not believe I was so foolish.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #47 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:13:14 AM »

Quote from: bulzaye on October 24, 2007, 12:31:05 AM

I am so glad I read all this thread. I own a handi IN 243 that will shoot under an inch groups at 200 yards. What an idiot I was to buy that thing for only I am ashamed to say 200 dollars for the whole gun. Man was I ripped off. I will put it out front with a free sign on it this very day. Thank you for setting me straight and to understand that more money has to mean better quality and of course better groups. I have seen the light. Nothing but custom barrels for me from now on. I can not believe I was so foolish.

Not everyone that has a Handi shoots 1" groups at 200 yards...and I would think I know a little about that...However... I am glad you have a good shooter in it...I also know many folks that have Encores that shoot as well...Cost isn't the only issue is it...? I've had very expensive rifles that wouldn't shoot good...and I have had very inexpensive rifles that wouldn't shoot good...either...Quality barrels come from many different places...and it is true...you usually get better when you can afford to pay the difference...It doesn't matter what type of rifle it is...If you can't understand the logic or the reasoning behind it...then you will always have problems understanding why others would choose to pay more for something than what you have...Again...cost isn't as much of an issue with many here...as it is with a lot of the guys on the Handi forum...

If your happy with yours...that is super...if they are happy with theirs...that's super too...I'm sorry you had problems with all of your T/C's......Some folks do have a lot a bad luck with a particular brand......but...not every one does...I've seen in with all of the single shots...and I personally know folks who have sworn of all of them because of it...There are many Handi owners that also own T/C's...namely for those custom calibers available in this line...or the magnum calibers that the Handi can never be chambered in...or what the Bergara's aren't chambered in..Buy what you can afford or want you to spend...others will do as they choose...I don't see anyone trying to set you straight telling you what to own or what makes you happy...What I do see is some here just wanting to argue..All you have to do is to look back on either forum to see that more folks come here to get help...than anything else...So...there are problems with all of them...What is so difficult to understand...? Bergara makes some good barrels...but they don't have what many folks are looking for...and won't have for many many years...and until that time...they won't be suit every ones needs or wants...

I am glad they have started making barrels for the T/C's...and look forward to the time when they are available in great numbers for a number of reasons...cost being just 1 of them.....All the initial reports of the T/C Bergara barrels have been promising...and in time I am sure there will be several other happy owners as well...My advise...like it or not is real simple...Don't slight some one because they own a more expensive gun than you...you don't need to justify your financial issues and for those who do own more expensive guns...don't put folks down that can't afford them...it's nice to have bragging rights or have pride in your equipment...but remember there are good inexpensive shooters available to own...wither you would ever purchase one yourself...

Mac

Ladobe · « **Reply #48 on:** October 24, 2007, 12:39:24 PM »

SWH –
I never said that you pointed your finger at anybody on your lost posts – only suggested you get the facts direct from Admin about them before you did. If you really did understand how it works on this board, then you would have taken the trouble to get the facts (if only for your own piece of mind) instead of continually whining about it without them. I call things as I see them. If you have a problem with that, so be it.

BobinIL –
Your idea to start a new thread to report your findings with your new barrel is a great idea IMO, and one that will do everybody a bunch more good than the way you started this one. Go for it.

30.06man –
Your wild-eyed comments on both of your posts make several things quite obvious. Among them that you have little experience with real life comparisons in the shooting sports, no knowledge of interior ballistics at all and that nobody will ever make you see any light at the end of your tunnel vision. All you seem to want to do is troll for an argument and make claims that anyone with a lick of common sense would seriously doubt you can back up.

Mac11700 –
Thank you for stepping in with some real life experience and information about Bergara barrels. Your comments carry a lot of credibility.

...
Normally a reasonable disagreement on a topic can be a good thing. It can bring more elements into a discussion that often opens up new possibilities worth exploring. But wasting time and effort debating with trolls is just that, a total waste of time. I too am done with this thread.

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #49 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:06:25 PM »

Ladobe-

Give me a break. I don't whine -- never have and never will. I challenge you to find one incident of whining in ANY of my posts.

I don't kneel at someone's self-professed altar, either, just because a few choose to do so. I have the intellect and experience to think for myself and don't need someone to tell me how the cow eats the cabbage.

But with some on this board, that does create a problem, doesn't it?

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #50 on:** October 24, 2007, 01:16:02 PM »

Ladobe: As to the missing post in the other Bergara thread, one of the members here was kind enough to e-mail it to me. He had printed it out for reference.

There was nothing that warranted attention from a moderator. I guess it just went to cyber-heaven.

Anyway, here it is in its entirety:

"I guess what my entire point in this thread boils down to is this: Why bash a product, irregardless of where it is made, if you have never, ever tried it for yourself?

I can understand a philosophy of "buy USA."

I can understand the preference to "not buy foreign."

And as a business owner myself, I certainly can understand "shop at home."

All of those are VALID reasons for not buying a Bergara barrel. And that I can certainly respect.

But I can't understand how someone can step forward and say they have no faith in a product or call it "cheap" when they have ZERO experience with that particular item -- and knows of no one who's tried it, either.

To me, that's an argument that can never hold water.

But hey, that's just my .02. Put a greenback with it and you can maybe get a small cup of coffee..."

bulzaye · « **Reply #51 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:30:18 PM »

Mac,

as you know I frequent the cva forum a lot. I have said bad about the 50 cal bergara muzzlelaoder barrel over and over until I finally found a load for it. You have given me advice there and I have used it.

I am afraid you missed my point at being facetious (that means I was being a jerk) I do appreciate your lecture and from what I have gotten from this thread it is about money it is about the elite t/c shooters saying expensive custom made has to be better and if you dont buy expensive your opinions do not matter and we are incompetent. Well I will say this. I will shoot against anyone here anytime with my less expensive equipment and I will do just as well if not better. Money is not an issue to me I make very great money well into 6 figures a year and can afford any barrel I want. I guess that when my less expensive barrels shoot as well as the expensive ones, I do not see the need for spending the extra money. I again know this makes me less competent and I am not allowed to have an opinion, but that is fine cuz I will shoot my cheap barrels and have a s much fun and will harvest as much game as anyone else. I reload for all my centerfire barrlels and have fine tuned them well including my very inexpensive H&R. This will be my last post on this thread because it will be turned around and I will be the bad guy here and that is fine. I really do not want to share thoughts with such narrow minded individuals anyway.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #52 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:12:47 PM »

Quote from: Keith L on October 22, 2007, 12:32:33 PM

Quote from: sweetwyominghome on October 22, 2007, 09:08:09 AM
Keith L wrote: "I didn't say and I don't recall anyone else "critical" of Bergara."

Really? What about this: "I hope someone does try and report on this new barrel, but I agree with Davemuzz that I likely won't own one....Fact is these are not fine Spanish arms, but cheap Spanish barrels"

Any idea who said that?

Hey???!!!! Now how did my name get sucked into this topic?

30-06man · « **Reply #53 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:17:08 PM »

its very addicting and it just sucked you in like everyone else?

Davemuzz · « **Reply #54 on:** October 24, 2007, 04:20:55 PM »

Quote from: BobinIL on October 20, 2007, 10:42:16 AM

Update

The Bergara barrel fit perfectly and will shoot .75" 3 shot groups at 100 yds with ease. I am using 87grn Hornady V-Max and IMR 4064. These barrels are good to go.

Well, I guess if your satisfied with .75" from a 3 shot group then your satisfied. But a Thompson Center .243 barrel will shoot a 6 shot group at 100 yards like this:

Yeah.....you can only see 5 holes.....but there are really 6 and there was no flyer.

Dave

sweetwyominghome · « **Reply #55 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:01:52 PM »

That's decent accuracy but certainly not stellar. But to each his own...

pastorp · « **Reply #56 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:34:53 PM »

Dave, if you can do that in the woods it will bring home the bacon.... Guess I've never been much of a target shooter. I do put my guns on paper to sight them in and see where their shooting but I've seen no deer that would stand still for a 6shot group. Regards, Byron

Davemuzz · « **Reply #57 on:** October 25, 2007, 12:41:19 AM »

Quote from: sweetwyominghome on October 24, 2007, 06:01:52 PM

That's decent accuracy but certainly not stellar. But to each his own...

What's the matter.....a 6 shot group at .75" isn't "good to go"?

Davemuzz · « **Reply #58 on:** October 25, 2007, 12:43:50 AM »

Quote from: pastorp on October 24, 2007, 07:34:53 PM

Dave, if you can do that in the woods it will bring home the bacon.... Guess I've never been much of a target shooter. I do put my guns on paper to sight them in and see where their shooting but I've seen no deer that would stand still for a 6shot group. Regards, Byron

Oh yeah....they will do it all the time. Hit 'em in the right place with the first shot.....then you can shoot 'em with the next 5 if you want.....'cause they aren't goin anywhere.

Dave

Mac11700 · « **Reply #59 on:** October 25, 2007, 04:39:31 AM »

Quote from: bulzaye on October 24, 2007, 02:30:18 PM

Mac,

as you know I frequent the cva forum a lot. I have said bad about the 50 cal bergara muzzlelaoder barrel over and over until I finally found a load for it. You have given me advice there and I have used it.

I am afraid you missed my point at being facetious (that means I was being a jerk) I do appreciate your lecture and from what I have gotten from this thread it is about money it is about the elite t/c shooters saying expensive custom made has to be better and if you dont buy expensive your opinions do not matter and we are incompetent. Well I will say this. I will shoot against anyone here anytime with my less expensive equipment and I will do just as well if not better. Money is not an issue to me I make very great money well into 6 figures a year and can afford any barrel I want. I guess that when my less expensive barrels shoot as well as the expensive ones, I do not see the need for spending the extra money. I again know this makes me less competent and I am not allowed to have an opinion, but that is fine cuz I will shoot my cheap barrels and have a s much fun and will harvest as much game as anyone else. I reload for all my centerfire barrlels and have fine tuned them well including my very inexpensive H&R. This will be my last post on this thread because it will be turned around and I will be the bad guy here and that is fine. I really do not want to share thoughts with such narrow minded individuals anyway.

I think you have come away with a wrong impression...from what I have read here...most of the folks have a wait & see attitude about them...Sure there are some that think their custom barrels are better...and to them...they are..Heck...I have a couple custom barrels on my Handi's...and I know they are better than any store bought barrel made for them...so...I kinda know where they are coming from on that issue...and I know full well that in certain calibers...my Handi's will out shoot most as well...But...the point to remember is the only person that you have to convince about the Bergara barrels...is you...The debates about..."which is better" will always go on & on...and it's just a simple matter of perspective...and just because you don't see the need to spend more...doesn't mean others don't...It's not just a matter of buying the cheapest that shoots good...heck...if that was the case...I would only own Handi's...It's a matter of what you want...I don't think any one is less competent for choosing not to spend more money...or have ever said you can't voice your opinion on it either...What I am saying is for folks to try to understand where the others are coming from...and try to read thru the rhetoric...Some folks prefer custom barrels...just as you prefer non custom barrels...Some folks like Chevy's...others prefer Cadillac's...Buy and shoot what makes you happy and fills your freezer...and don't worry about anyone that doesn't approve of what you choose to shoot...they aren't the ones who are pulling the trigger..nor are they the ones who are wanting to find out about the Bergara barrels...Just because some don't agree with you or are hesitant to put their stamp of approval on them..isn't a bad thing...It is just a process that takes place on just about any new product...It just takes time and a bunch of good reviews by many different people before they become generally accepted...and there will always be those that never accept them...just because of who makes them...or where they are made...That's life...and I don't bang my head against the wall any more trying to convince these folks about them...

Mac