Author Topic: T/C shooters READ THIS (Read 5699 times)

Varmint Hunter · « **on:** October 19, 2007, 09:41:39 AM »

In my search for a new muzzleloader I noticed that there is quite a difference in opinion as to the maximum recommended charge for several common muzzleloaders. Today I called T/C and asked SPECIFICALLY what each of their muzzleloaders was rated for. Here is what they said:

ONLY the 205x50 Magnum Encore rifle is rated for 150gr of Pyrodex. They also told me that it is also rated for the same charge of 777.

NONE of their other muzzleloading rifles are rated for more than the traditional 100gr charge. Not the Encores, not the Omega's and not the new Triumph. They are aware that shooters do use charges above T/C's blessigs but they do not reccomend it.

What do you use in your T/C muzzleloader?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2007, 10:30:51 AM »

You talked to and idiot. My Omega owners manual says different.

AndyHass · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2007, 10:43:23 AM »

Straight from T/C:
OMEGA™ GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS:
CALIBER: .50 Caliber
IGNITION: 209 Shotgun Primer (sealed pivoting breech)
BARREL: 28" w/Quick Load Accurizer™ Muzzle System
RIFLING TWIST: 1 in 28" Twist for sabots and conical bullets
OVERALL LENGTH: 42"
WEIGHT: 7 lbs. (approximately)
SIGHTS: Adjustable metal rear sight with Fiber Optic inserts; metal ramp front sight with Fiber Optics.
TRIM: Sling Swivel Studs
STOCK: Composite or Laminated Buttstock and Forend.
EXTRA FEATURES: Drilled and tapped for scope mounts
LOADING: Accepts magnum charges of up to 150 grains of FFG black powder or Pyrodex® equivalent (or 3 of the 50 Grain, 50 Caliber Pyrodex® Pellets).

If you recorded who you talked to, you should call back and report them to their manager if they really told you that. All of their inlines are rated to 150 grains.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2007, 10:53:28 AM »

As Keith said, you must have talked to someone that was misinformed, as he also said, the Omega has 150gr loads listed in the manual, as does Triumph, Black Diamond and Black Mtn.

Tim

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Omega_Muzzleloader_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/TC_Triumph_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Black_Diamond_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/noncurrent/Black_Mountain_Magnum_Loads.pdf

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2007, 11:58:59 AM »

Actually, I may have spoken to 2 idiots. The first women gave me such confusing answers that she may not have known the differnce between an Encore pistol and Encore muzzleloader rifle. She insisted that the 209x50 Magnum had a 15" barrel.

Eventually, she put another woman on the phone who answered all of my questions.

For those of you who KNOW; what is the difference between an Encore muzzleloader and a 209x50 Magnum Encore muzzleloader? If they both take 150gr charges; what makes the magnum version a magnum?

While I'm at it; has anyone tried 150gr equivelent of loose propellant, rather than 3 - 50gr equivelent pellets, in their T/C muzzleloader? If so; what where the results?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2007, 12:08:27 PM »

I've only shot near max loads of both 2f and 3f 777 in a couple Black Diamonds, which by the way is less(127.5gr) than 150gr since 777 loads have to be reduced 15% by volume. Accuracy was better with 110-120gr with the Powerbelts I shoot.

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/loadnote.php

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2007, 12:18:07 PM »

Unless I missed it, I don't see any info in the Triumph manual that suggests that you can use 150gr charges. It is listed in the others, so, unless I missed it I can only assume that there is a reason that T/C ommited it for this rifle.

I'm particularely interested in their loading recommendations for the Encore Pro-Hunter ML.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2007, 12:27:42 PM »

Tim,

You lost me with that one. Hodgdon does not say that a maximum charge of 777 is 15% less than BP. It says to use them at the same volume but to expect increased velocities. A 15% reduction will get you the same velocity as BP, if that is what your looking for.

After reading their web site, it would appear that 150gr of 777 could be used in a gun that is rated for 150gr of BP. Interesting because there doesn't seem to be many people who would use a 150gr charge (loose, not pellets) of 777 in a gun that could utilize 150gr of BP.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2007, 12:53:10 PM »

Quote from: Varmint Hunter on October 19, 2007, 12:18:07 PM

Unless I missed it, I don't see any info in the Triumph manual that suggests that you can use 150gr charges. It is listed in the others, so, unless I missed it I can only assume that there is a reason that T/C ommited it for this rifle.

It's on page 55.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2007, 01:04:22 PM »

For loose powder, a max load of BP is 150gr, a load equal to that of 777 is 127.5gr. Using three 50gr 777 pellets isn't the same tho, so don't be confused by that.

Tim

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2007, 02:00:32 PM »

Varmint Hunter, please do not use 150 gr. of loose triple7. It is on the Hodgdon site. 110 to 120 is what you want to use as an equivalent to three triple7 50 gr. pellets. Trust us or call Hodgdon yourself.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2007, 02:39:07 AM »

RedHawk,

I believe you guys, thats why I post here. I am, however, quite surprised that the manufacturers (guns, powder, etc) aren't crystal clear about all of this. Quite frankly, T/C's own customer service people gave completely incorrect information that was refuted by the links that you guys provided.

I'd be amazed if no one unknowingly put 150gr of loose Pyrodex or 777 in one of the newer rifles which suggest 150gr maximum charges.

And no one seems to know (including T/C) what the difference is between their Encore ML rifles and their 209x50 "Magnum ML rifle. Making an intelligent choice isn't made any easier by all of this.

Either way, I am leaning toward the Encore Pro-Hunter ML.

alsaqr · « **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2007, 04:12:16 AM »

"110 to 120 is what you want to use as an equivalent to three triple7 50 gr. pellets."

Yes, i know that is what the manufacturer says. But it is not true. This is my post from another website.

"In the October issue Rifleman magazine announced the results of testing of black powder and the black powder substitutes. Bryce M. Towsley attached a pressure strain gauge to the Knight .50 caliber Knight KRB rifle that was used in the testing. The gun has a 27 inch barrel. The Hornady 250 grain SST bullet and sabot were used in the testing.

Two things stuck out at me:

1. The power of Swiss brand black powder. This stuff is really powerful: 2,065 fps with a 150 grain charge.
2. The fact that there is really not a dime's worth of difference in the power of Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex Select, and Triple Seven.
Velocity of 150 grain charges of Pyrodex granular:

1. Pyrodex RS: 2,139 fps.
2. Pyrodex Select: 2,175 fps.
3. Pyrodex Triple Seven: 2,166.

Velocity of 100 grain charges of Pyrodex granular:

1. Pyrodex RS: 1,850 fps.
2. Pyrodex Select: 1,860ps.
3. Pyrodex Triple Seven: 1,961 fps.

Velocity of 3, 50 grain Triple Seven pellets.

Pyrodex Triple Seven pellets: 2,106 fps.
The 3, 777 pellets gave a higher pressure reading than 150 grains of granular 777.

Two of the new Triple Seven Magnum pellets gave a velocity of 1,850 fps, the same as a 100 grain charge of Pyrodex RS.

So much for the claim that Triple Seven granular is X percent more powerful that the equivalent in 777 pellets. "

str8shooter48 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2007, 04:32:09 AM »

Maybe the T/C people let the Smith & Wesson people take over customer service duties.

and they know very little about muzzleloaders.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2007, 04:48:20 AM »

alsaqr,

Very interesting info you provided. It brings up as many questions as it answers.

Just when everyone has me convinced that you can't use 150gr of 777 granular in a modern Ml you site a test that not only uses 150gr charges (loose) but found that it produced less pressure than the 3 pellets that are commonly used.

I checked Hodgdon's web site and didn't see any suggestion that 3-50gr pellets of 777 was an appropriate charge in any gun. Their "magnum" 777 pellets info does indicate that you should never use more than 2. I've heard that the magnum pellets were 75gr equivalent charges but Hodgdon doesn't say that.

Why are the manufacturers so vague? People are liable to make mistakes.

"The more I know - the more I know I don't know"

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2007, 09:31:57 AM »

alsaqr, I doubt they used 150 gr. of triple7 powder. I don't care what you posted here, but if you actually weighed out 3 triple7 pellets it would weight the same as 120 gr. of loose triple7 by volume, that my friend is what equivalent means.
I don't recommend anyone shoot 150 gr. of loose triple7 powder, or pyrodex. Now if you want to shoot Goax black powder, then by all means use 150 gr. by volume. Yes Swiss BP is more powerful than Goex or Elephant brand black powder

alsaqr · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2007, 12:21:46 PM »

"alsaqr, I doubt they used 150 gr. of triple7 powder."

Yes, we all know that B/P and B/P substitutes are measured by volume.
The man tested 150 grains of granular 777 by volume. Black powder substitutes are measured by volume equivalent of B/P: Not by weight and not by weight equivalent of 777 pellets.

Lots of folks shoot 150 grains of Pyrodex by volume: i am no longer one of them. According to your avatar you are an NRA member. Get out your copy of Rifleman magazine and read that article.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 21, 2007, 12:41:40 PM »

alsaqr, I found my issues and read it, and they say they used 150 gr of triple7. All I know is what the Hodgdon site says and what T/C recommends and that is what I stick with, that is a good way of keeping yourself out of trouble. But this post is asking about the Encore not the Knight KRB. Go to the Hodgdon web site and read the triple 7 warning about the 15% decrease if loose powder is used. Also they used a 245 gr. Hornady SST bullet not a 250 gr.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2007, 03:49:47 PM »

The last information I have is that T/C still does not allow more than 100 gr of loose Triple Seven except in pellets.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2007, 03:53:32 PM »

Quote from: Wolfhound on October 21, 2007, 03:49:47 PM

The last information I have is that T/C still does not allow more than 100 gr of loose Triple Seven except in pellets.

That's not what their owner's manuals show, they show loose powder loads to 150gr.

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 19, 2007, 10:53:28 AM

As Keith said, you must have talked to someone that was misinformed, as he also said, the Omega has 150gr loads listed in the manual, as does Triumph, Black Diamond and Black Mtn.

Tim

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Omega_Muzzleloader_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/TC_Triumph_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Black_Diamond_Manual.pdf

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/noncurrent/Black_Mountain_Magnum_Loads.pdf

Here's some of the Omega data if you can't download the manuals...

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2007, 04:40:20 PM »

The Encore® 209x.50 Magnum, with a 26" barrel of 4140 rifle grade steel is designed to handle Magnum charges of up to 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex® equivalent (or 3 Pyrodex® Pellets). Using T/C’s Mag Express Sabots and a 250 grain Shockwave™ bullet with 3 Pyrodex Pellets, it produces a muzzle velocity of 2203 ft./second and it is lethal out to 200 yards!

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreMuzzleloaders.php

Where the 15% come in is the Hodgdon web site. 150gr. of triple7 minus 15% equals 127.5 because 15% of 150 is 22.5. But 120 gr. was the number I have always gone by.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2007, 01:30:08 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 21, 2007, 03:53:32 PM

That's not what their owner's manuals show, they show loose powder loads to 150gr.

Check it again. They show loose powder loads to 150 but list only Blackpowder and Pyrodex. It's the exact same manual I have. I called them a few years ago when I got my Omega and was told no more than 100 grains of Triple Seven. They have to update their manuals before they'll allow more. To do that they have to reshoot all the loads with Triple Seven. Judging by the manual you linked to they still don't allow more than 100 grains.

AndyHass · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2007, 02:50:41 AM »

I tend to run the most powerful ACCURATE loads I can in my rifles. I find the powder charge through extensive testing (I'm tuning a new scope, I've put around 120 shots downrange in the past month). In my old Traditions sidelock, I shot 85gr Pyrodex RS ffG. I knew from trying that 90 gr was less accurate and 100gr (max charge) blew the patterns wide open. When I tried 85gr 777, the patterns were blown wide open. When I reduced to 75gr, patterns tightened back up. I think it's not a coincidence that this follows the 15% rule.

By the time I got my first inline I had a chronograph. This confirmed that I got increased velocities with 777 over Pyrodex RS, roughly correlating to 15% rule on the charge. The test listed above didn't give many details about how many shots they averaged for those numbers, but at 100gr there was still a 100fps velocity difference shown. There wasn't much difference at 150gr but the difference would be smaller there anyways as the relationship is not linear.

IMHO it is irrelevant as I have never found a load in any of my guns that kept maximum accuracy to 150gr charge. I shoot 110gr 777 in my Omega and it opens up noticeably at 115gr. Maybe if I was hunting bear or something dangerous at closer range I would be concerned about max charge. I killed a lot of whitetails with 85gr only and almost always got pass-thrus.

There is no reason to believe by default that BP and subs, or even different brands of BP, will be equivalent. Even between lot #s there can be differences. Guns are designed with a safety factor, but when a manufacturer publishes a 15% difference I would not want to consistently over-charge my gun by that amount.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #23 on:** October 22, 2007, 03:10:14 AM »

Like I said in previous posts. there is quite a bit of confusion regarding maximum charges of various BP propellants.

For whatever its worth, my original Knight MK85 is only rated for 100gr of BP (not 150gr like their newer muzzleloaders) but I have been using 100gr of 777 granular since it has been available. It had always been my understanding that this was a safe load in a rifle rated for 100gr of BP.

It would be very easy for someone to interpret that 150gr of Pyrodex or 777, in any form, to be an approved maximum charge in the new muzzleloaders.

REDHAWK - if the 209x50 Magnum barrel is made of 4140 rifle grade steel; what type of steel is used in the other T/C Encore muzzleloaders? I'm still trying to determine the difference.

AndyHass - You make a good point regarding velocity vs accuracy. However, I believe that most of the muzzloaders who are seeking to maximize velocity are doing so to increase range rather than to increase impact energy at 100yds or less.

alsaqr · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2007, 03:38:50 AM »

Also they used a 245 gr. Hornady SST bullet not a 250 gr."

That is a misprint. Probably do to some do gooder proof reader.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** October 22, 2007, 03:59:00 AM »

The TC Encore muzzleloader manual states to use the powder mfrs loading recommendations for other substitutes, so you're back to Hodgdon's 15% less recommendation.

Tim

http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/current/Encore_Muzzleloader_Manual.pdf

Wolfhound · « **Reply #26 on:** October 22, 2007, 04:23:43 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 22, 2007, 03:59:00 AM

The TC Encore muzzleloader manual states to use the powder mfrs loading recommendations for other substitutes, so you're back to Hodgdon's 15% less recommendation.

Except that Hodgdon specifially states that 100 grains is the Maximum load for either pellets or loose. Unless you own a .54 of course, then it's 120.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7rifle-sabot.php
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/pellets/50sabot.php

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** October 22, 2007, 04:30:17 AM »

Well, it also says to duplicate black powder loads, reduce by 15%, so you just have to use your own judgement.

Tim

Quote

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/loadnote.php

Wolfhound · « **Reply #28 on:** October 22, 2007, 04:51:09 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 22, 2007, 04:30:17 AM

Well, it also says to duplicate black powder loads, reduce by 15%, so you just have to use your own judgement.

If you choose to go against the powder manufacturers recomendations then you should have information from the gun maker showing it's ok. You don't have that with T/C yet. The Thompson Manual you linked to does not mention Triple Seven yet. They say to use the powder maker's recomendations and Hodgdon says 100 grains. With CVA for example they list 150 grain max for pellets but only 100 for loose powder IIRC. Knight has a 150 Pellet max and 150 for loose and specifically mentions Triple Seven as an approved powder (except the Tk-2000 which has a max of 120 for Pyro/BP and 100 for Triple Seven). I have no idea what other gun makers allow but I would not exceed their powder maximums. I only shoot 90 grains of powder anyway so it's no big deal for me but someone reading your posts might think it's ok to use something that isn't yet allowed by the manufacturer, either of the powder or the gun. I think it's a bit irresponsible to be promoting loads heavier than the manufacturer recomends. Unless T/C says it's ok your on your own.

alsaqr · « **Reply #29 on:** October 22, 2007, 05:30:24 AM »

The manual that came with my "Magnum" Encore is nearly useless when it comes to loads. It has all kinds of stuff on T/C Break-o-Way sabots and all kinds of data on the pistol. Would you believe that it does not have loading data for Pyrodex granular and Mag Express sabots for the rifle?