Author Topic: T/C shooters READ THIS  (Read 5683 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2007, 07:16:32 AM »
Varmint Hunter, call T/C and ask to speak to someone in the technical department. Then ask them that question. I would want to speak to someone with knowledge of the Encore M/L's.

As far as the loading of my 50 cal Encore, I read my book to read 150 gr. of BP or Pyrodex can be used in my Encore, but when I go to Hodgdons web site it tells me to reduce the powder charge down by 15%. That is where I get my information and that is what I have done since I bought my first Encore muzzleloader 6 years ago.
I use 120 gr. of loose triple 7 with great results and will continue to use it in the years to follow.
I think some of you are reading too much into this.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline AndyHass

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 629
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2007, 08:20:29 AM »


AndyHass - You make a good point regarding velocity vs accuracy. However, I believe that most of the muzzloaders who are seeking to maximize velocity are doing so to increase range rather than to increase impact energy at 100yds or less.

That is EXACTLY my point.  What good does it do to max out your velocity if you can't reliably hit your target??  I increase my velocity as high as I can until accuracy begins to erode....I will NOT sacrifice the accuracy of my rifle to flatten my trajectory by 2-3" at 200 yards.  I think that is a logical way of thinking.

The only logical reason to max out your charge (unless your gun holds great accuracy all the way there) is for penetration and power at closer ranges.  At long range, accuracy rules.

If you are shooting far enough to worry about trajectory gains from a 20gr increase in charge, you should be using marker flags or a rangefinder so that small flattening in trajectory won't matter anyways.

Offline El Hombre

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 109
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2007, 08:43:57 AM »
Except that Hodgdon specifially states that 100 grains is the Maximum load for either pellets or loose. Unless you own a .54 of course, then it's 120.

Exactly-

Offline alsaqr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2007, 08:45:51 AM »
All the marketing hype out there is very confusing.  It is further complicated due to the fact that few, if any, gun makers have ever pressure tested any loads.  Most do not even proof test their guns.  Much of the loading data is weasel worded so as to escape liability if something goes wrong and a shooter is injured with a recommended load.  Look at the example that Quick Too posted from a T/C manual.  

Used to use 130-150 grains of Pyrodex RS and Select in my CVA guns along with the 240 grain XTP bullet.    Quit that when i found out that these loads can generate as much as 25,000 psi and that CVA guns are "proofed" at about 10,000 psi.   Such heavy loads are not needed for 95 percent of the hunting done in the US.  

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2007, 09:39:04 AM »
Except that Hodgdon specifially states that 100 grains is the Maximum load for either pellets or loose. Unless you own a .54 of course, then it's 120.

Exactly-

The reason Hodgdon does not list over 100 gr. of triple 7 for a 50 cal, is the same reason people making 45-70 rounds. There are guns out there that cannot handle over 100 gr. of powder. That is why they make the following statement.

WARNING - Before loading your firearm, stop, read and understand the instructions furnished with your firearm. If you do not have an owner's manual for your firearm, contact the manufacturer and request one. The owner's manual for your firearm should specify a maximum allowable load. Under no circumstances should this maximum be exceeded.

Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.
http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/loadnote.php

From the T/C site.
MAGNUM CAPABILITIES
The Encore® 209x.50 Magnum, with a 26" barrel of 4140 rifle grade steel is designed to handle Magnum charges of up to 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex® equivalent (or 3 Pyrodex® Pellets). Using T/C’s Mag Express Sabots and a 250 grain Shockwave™ bullet with 3 Pyrodex Pellets, it produces a muzzle velocity of 2203 ft./second and it is lethal out to 200 yards!
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreMuzzleloaders.php

Sounds like 150 gr. of triple 7 pellets or 120 gr. of loose triple7 is OK as long as you reduce the load by 15%. Now that seems easy enough for me to understand.







If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2007, 09:49:38 AM »


AndyHass - You make a good point regarding velocity vs accuracy. However, I believe that most of the muzzloaders who are seeking to maximize velocity are doing so to increase range rather than to increase impact energy at 100yds or less.

That is EXACTLY my point.  What good does it do to max out your velocity if you can't reliably hit your target??  I increase my velocity as high as I can until accuracy begins to erode....I will NOT sacrifice the accuracy of my rifle to flatten my trajectory by 2-3" at 200 yards.  I think that is a logical way of thinking.

The only logical reason to max out your charge (unless your gun holds great accuracy all the way there) is for penetration and power at closer ranges.  At long range, accuracy rules.

If you are shooting far enough to worry about trajectory gains from a 20gr increase in charge, you should be using marker flags or a rangefinder so that small flattening in trajectory won't matter anyways.

Andy I am not a max load kind of guy, but I found in my Encore Pro-hunter with 120 gr. of loose triple 7 and a 250 gr. T/C bonded shock wave bullet and my Omega scope I can shoot with enough energy out to 250 yards and effectively kill game. My accuracy is very good and I don't need markers to judge distances. If I know my distance , my scope with the BDC radical is used for the further shots. 
When I was shooting my Encore with my Leupold scope and 195 gr. PR bullets I was using 90 gr. of loose triple 7 and killing deer left and right, but I chose to find a load and set up so I could reach out to 250 yards with great accuracy and I did with my Encore Pro-hunter.
I happen to believe 20 gr,s make a difference. Why, because I have spent my time at the range to see it for myself.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Wolfhound

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2007, 11:31:30 AM »
From the T/C site.
MAGNUM CAPABILITIES
The Encore® 209x.50 Magnum, with a 26" barrel of 4140 rifle grade steel is designed to handle Magnum charges of up to 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex® equivalent (or 3 Pyrodex® Pellets). Using T/C’s Mag Express Sabots and a 250 grain Shockwave™ bullet with 3 Pyrodex Pellets, it produces a muzzle velocity of 2203 ft./second and it is lethal out to 200 yards!
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreMuzzleloaders.php

Sounds like 150 gr. of triple 7 pellets or 120 gr. of loose triple7 is OK as long as you reduce the load by 15%. Now that seems easy enough for me to understand.

It's not that easy. You have the gun maker that allows 150 grain loads of Pyrodex or blackpowder telling you to follow the powder manufacturer's reccomendations for powders they don't list like Triple Seven. Then you have the Powder maker saying to reduce 15% to duplicate a blackpowder/pyrodex load with a maximum of 100 grains. Who do you listen to in this case? Seems like your picking and choosing what to follow. Your picking the "reduce by 15%" but ignoring the other part. If your gun fails Hodgdon is ok as they say a max of 100 grains. T/C is ok since they say to follow the powder makers reccomendation and Hodgdon says 100 grains max. That's 2 of the 3 parties involved which leaves you responsible for ignoring loading data. I don't think a T/C will blow with a 120 max as they're pretty stout guns but you and I both know there are probably fools loading 150 grains of loose Triple Seven. Now Hodgdon has the magnum pellets who want's to bet there are gonna be people loading 3 of those down the barrel?

There is a reason for following manufacturer's guidelines. If you muzzle load your are a reloader. I don't thing there are many reloaders who willingly shoot a 20% overcharge. Justify it how you want but anything over a 100 grains is an overcharge according to the powder maker. At least with Pyrodex it's approved by T/C. Triple Seven still isn't for over 100 grains.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2007, 11:58:18 AM »
It's a good thing that blackpowder rifles are much much much more forgiving than smokeless cartridge guns when it comes to overloading.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline AndyHass

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 629
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2007, 12:20:14 PM »


AndyHass - You make a good point regarding velocity vs accuracy. However, I believe that most of the muzzloaders who are seeking to maximize velocity are doing so to increase range rather than to increase impact energy at 100yds or less.

That is EXACTLY my point.  What good does it do to max out your velocity if you can't reliably hit your target??  I increase my velocity as high as I can until accuracy begins to erode....I will NOT sacrifice the accuracy of my rifle to flatten my trajectory by 2-3" at 200 yards.  I think that is a logical way of thinking.

The only logical reason to max out your charge (unless your gun holds great accuracy all the way there) is for penetration and power at closer ranges.  At long range, accuracy rules.

If you are shooting far enough to worry about trajectory gains from a 20gr increase in charge, you should be using marker flags or a rangefinder so that small flattening in trajectory won't matter anyways.

Andy I am not a max load kind of guy, but I found in my Encore Pro-hunter with 120 gr. of loose triple 7 and a 250 gr. T/C bonded shock wave bullet and my Omega scope I can shoot with enough energy out to 250 yards and effectively kill game. My accuracy is very good and I don't need markers to judge distances. If I know my distance , my scope with the BDC radical is used for the further shots. 
When I was shooting my Encore with my Leupold scope and 195 gr. PR bullets I was using 90 gr. of loose triple 7 and killing deer left and right, but I chose to find a load and set up so I could reach out to 250 yards with great accuracy and I did with my Encore Pro-hunter.
I happen to believe 20 gr,s make a difference. Why, because I have spent my time at the range to see it for myself.

The difference between 2000 fps and 2200 fps will save you about 5in of drop at 250yds with a 100yd zero with a Shockwave, give or take.  Depends how you define significance.  With my gun that's about the advantage of 130gr 777 over 100 gr.   You drop around 10in from 200 to 250 yds and about 15in from 250 to 300yds.  My comment was directed at the fact that if you don't have some mechanism (rangefinder, marking flags, known landmarks etc) to help you get within 20-25 yds of the correct range, the drop out there is so large that shaving 5in off your drop is not going to do much to save your shot so you might as well go for accuracy.  If you know your range and know your load, you can hit a long ways out.  It's pretty easy to mis-estimate range by 10-15% at a distance, and past 200yds that's all it takes to make a rotten shot.  That's why I don't shoot at something I think is beyond 150yds without verifying the range...that far out my error won't be enough to ruin the shot, if it's really closer to 200 it's going to get iffy.

Both loads you describe are pretty flat-shooting.  Past 200yds, getting the range right matters more than how flat your trajectory is though.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2007, 12:24:45 PM »
traditions inlines are rated for 130 grains triple 7 loose.

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2007, 01:35:08 PM »
From the T/C site.
MAGNUM CAPABILITIES
The Encore® 209x.50 Magnum, with a 26" barrel of 4140 rifle grade steel is designed to handle Magnum charges of up to 150 grains of black powder or Pyrodex® equivalent (or 3 Pyrodex® Pellets). Using T/C’s Mag Express Sabots and a 250 grain Shockwave™ bullet with 3 Pyrodex Pellets, it produces a muzzle velocity of 2203 ft./second and it is lethal out to 200 yards!
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreMuzzleloaders.php

Sounds like 150 gr. of triple 7 pellets or 120 gr. of loose triple7 is OK as long as you reduce the load by 15%. Now that seems easy enough for me to understand.

It's not that easy. You have the gun maker that allows 150 grain loads of Pyrodex or blackpowder telling you to follow the powder manufacturer's reccomendations for powders they don't list like Triple Seven. Then you have the Powder maker saying to reduce 15% to duplicate a blackpowder/pyrodex load with a maximum of 100 grains. Who do you listen to in this case? Seems like your picking and choosing what to follow. Your picking the "reduce by 15%" but ignoring the other part. If your gun fails Hodgdon is ok as they say a max of 100 grains. T/C is ok since they say to follow the powder makers reccomendation and Hodgdon says 100 grains max. That's 2 of the 3 parties involved which leaves you responsible for ignoring loading data. I don't think a T/C will blow with a 120 max as they're pretty stout guns but you and I both know there are probably fools loading 150 grains of loose Triple Seven. Now Hodgdon has the magnum pellets who want's to bet there are gonna be people loading 3 of those down the barrel?

There is a reason for following manufacturer's guidelines. If you muzzle load your are a reloader. I don't thing there are many reloaders who willingly shoot a 20% overcharge. Justify it how you want but anything over a 100 grains is an overcharge according to the powder maker. At least with Pyrodex it's approved by T/C. Triple Seven still isn't for over 100 grains.

I am not going to keep going over this, do what you want, I will keep shooting 120 gr. of loose triple 7 in my Encore Pro-hunter. This is not rocket science here, all you have to do is a little research.

I am done here...
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2007, 02:20:51 PM »
Quote
Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as black powder. To duplicate a black powder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.

I am not the least bit interested in duplicating the velocity of a BP load so we can forget about the second sentenance. If you take the first sentance on its face, a reasonable person would logically interpret this to say that you may use 150gr of 777 (granular or pellet) in any ML that is rated for 150gr of BP.

These manufacturers really have to get their sh__ together.

Offline Wolfhound

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2007, 04:43:23 PM »

These manufacturers really have to get their sh__ together.

Agreed. They don't even have a uniform bore diameter or equal testing. Several years ago the major manufactuers got together to try and set a standard. Nobody wanted to change how they did it. Don't think it'll happen though, the gun manufacturers are obdurate.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2007, 11:34:22 PM »
traditions inlines are rated for 130 grains triple 7 loose.

Keep in mind that Spanish made muzzleloaders aren't proofed as far as we can tell.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2007, 02:44:19 AM »
traditions inlines are rated for 130 grains triple 7 loose.

Keep in mind that Spanish made muzzleloaders aren't proofed as far as we can tell.

Once again we bring up proofing, there is literally no one in the US the proofs there guns. Not one gun has a proofing stamp on them like guns you find in Europe, or the devices needed to proof a barrel.

But as far as the Spanish made muzzleloaders, they can not handle heavy loads, that is a fact without proofing.

SAMMI and proofing are two totally different things. 


The Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House was established in 1813 by an act of Parliament at the request—and expense—of the then prosperous Birmingham Gun Trade. Its remit was to provide a testing and certification service for firearms in order to prove their quality of construction, particularly in terms of the resistance of barrels to explosion under firing conditions. Such testing prior to sale or transfer of firearms is made mandatory by the Gun Barrel Proof Acts 1868–1989, which make it an offence to sell, offer for sale, transfer, export or pawn an unproofed firearm, with certain exceptions for military organisations. The building was designed by John Horton and consists of a centre bay, emphasised by a segmental parapet, which contains trophies by William Hollins. A Jacobean-style gateway was added in 1883.[1]

The Proof House still exists today, largely unchanged in both purpose and construction, although it offers a wider range of services including ammunition testing and firearm accident investigation.

The Proof process is that of testing a firearm for integrity using a severely overcharged cartridge, or Proof load which is fired through the gun in an armoured testing chamber. This exposes it to pressures far beyond what it would experience in normal service. It is awarded a stamped Proof Mark if it survives without either being destroyed or suffering damage from the proof load. Larger guns were tested at a shooting range in Bordesley along a railway viaduct however, the expansion of the city centre resulted in the closure of the shooting range.

Proof may be rendered invalid if the firearm is damaged or modified significantly; at this point it is described as "out of proof" and must be re-proofed before it can be sold or transferred.

Note that the correct term for a satisfactorily tested firearm is Proofed, and not Proven.

Penalties for noncompliance with proof laws are severe; a fine of £5,000 may be levied for selling an unproofed or out-of proof firearm, more if a number of firearms are involved in a transaction. Tampering with, or forging a proof mark is regarded as even more serious.

The grade II listed Proof House is located in Banbury Street, Birmingham, England. It contains a museum of arms and ammunition, and can be visited by prior arrangement. See also Birmingham Gun Quarter.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline alsaqr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2007, 02:56:36 AM »
"Keep in mind that Spanish made muzzleloaders aren't proofed as far as we can tell."

My CVA guns are "proofed to about 10,000 psi.  No us maker that i know of proofs their guns either.  So here we go.

"But as far as the Spanish made muzzleloaders, they can not handle heavy loads, that is a fact without proofing."

Show me where a Spanish made gun manufactured in the past five years cannot handle heavy loads.  Yes, i know that Randy Wakeman and a few other self professed "experts" rail against Spanish made guns.  Wakeman is in cahoots with a personal injury law firm:   Eaton & Sparks 1717 E. 15th Street Tulsa, OK 74104. 

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2007, 11:09:41 AM »
I don't look like much, but I like the face I was issued with.  I'll leave the Spanish made guns for others to shoot.  If I felt like taking the risk, I'd definitely keep my loads to 80 grains of 3F or less behind a 250 grain sabot.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2007, 11:50:43 AM »
I don't look like much, but I like the face I was issued with.  I'll leave the Spanish made guns for others to shoot.  If I felt like taking the risk, I'd definitely keep my loads to 80 grains of 3F or less behind a 250 grain sabot.

I could not agree more.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Chuck White

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2007, 12:11:27 PM »
Varmint Hunter
The 209X50 Magnum is an Encore!

Also, as many of the other guys have stated, there are lots of ML rifles out there rated at 150 grains!

Also note that loose powder doesn't weigh up the same as pellets!
Chuck White
USAF Retired, Life Member, NRA & NAHC
Don't matter what gun you use,
just get good with it!

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2007, 12:42:32 PM »
bpi muzzleloaders are rated for 3 pellets and a maximum of 300 grain sabot. 110 grain loose powder and a 400 grain conical.

Without actual proof of what other companies proof their guns to, your case holds no water. To say that a spanish muzzleloader isn't capable of 150 grain powder loads is your opinion and not a fact.


Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2007, 12:53:14 PM »
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2007, 01:53:54 PM »
randy wakeman is a douche bag. Ive emailed him many times asking for info on the spanish made muzzleloaders that had problems and he couldnt give me an answer.

Toby Bridges had an exploding savage.

Of course, seeing how randy supports and sells savage muzzleloaders, he stuck up for savage.

Randy follows the money trail just like jim shockey and that he trusts his life on TC. Same thing he said when knight was signing him checks ;)

Again, there is no proof what any muzzleloader on the market is proofed at.

 Remember the American made douglas explo..... er i mean, barrels?

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2007, 02:31:58 PM »
Quote
Varmint Hunter
The 209X50 Magnum is an Encore

Exactly; that is why I asked the question. They seem to have the same powder capacity so what makes the "magnum" version any different than all the other Encore MLs?

Quote
Also note that loose powder doesn't weigh up the same as pellets!

If 777 is weighed by its BP equivelent and the pellets are packaged by a BP equivelent why doesn't 2-pellets weigh the same as 100gr of loose? More confusion? ::) I blame the manufactures. Maybe they should read this thread.   ;D

Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2007, 03:20:09 PM »
Varmint Hunter, magnum was added to let everyone know the Encore will handle 150 gr.  I have been shooting the 120 gr. loose load for 6 years now. So it is nothing new.

Back to going to the Hodgdon web site, Reduce by 15% when using triple 7 loose powder.......

The 2 triple 7 pellets are equivalent to 100 gr. of black powder.  The actual weight is different.

I don't see why this is so confusing???
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2007, 03:34:56 PM »
randy wakeman is a douche bag. Ive emailed him many times asking for info on the spanish made muzzleloaders that had problems and he couldnt give me an answer.

Toby Bridges had an exploding savage.

Of course, seeing how randy supports and sells savage muzzleloaders, he stuck up for savage.

Randy follows the money trail just like jim shockey and that he trusts his life on TC. Same thing he said when knight was signing him checks ;)

Again, there is no proof what any muzzleloader on the market is proofed at.

 Remember the American made douglas explo..... er i mean, barrels?

It's your life.  Just don't shoot them close to your loved ones.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline alsaqr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1270
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2007, 04:08:57 PM »
"If 777 is weighed by its BP equivelent and the pellets are packaged by a BP equivelent why doesn't 2-pellets weigh the same as 100gr of loose? More confusion?"

Please do not think weight.  It is volume equivalent of blackpowder.  A 50 grain Pyrodex pellet equivalent of black powder weighs 37.3 grains by my scale.   Just weighed 100 measured grains of 777=74.4 grains.   i do not have 777 pellets to weigh. 

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2007, 04:23:44 PM »
Considering one of the spanish brands is americas #1 selling brand muzzleloader, I will stick with them ;)

Only have two inlines as of right now but plan on selling both of them. Just not that much interested in them anymore  ???


Offline Redhawk1

  • Life time NRA Supporter.
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (78)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10748
  • Gender: Male
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2007, 04:31:00 PM »
Considering one of the spanish brands is americas #1 selling brand muzzleloader, I will stick with them ;)


Where did you get the information?
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Endowment Life Member of the NRA
Life Member NA

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2007, 04:38:47 PM »
cva.

Dont u watch hunting shows?

Offline Varmint Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 665
Re: T/C shooters READ THIS
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2007, 12:31:26 AM »
Quote
The 2 triple 7 pellets are equivalent to 100 gr. of black powder.  The actual weight is different.

I don't see why this is so confusing???

Because one would assume that the 50gr connotation on the pellets is related to its 777 measurement and as we all know 2-50gr 777 pellets is not the same as 100gr of 777 powder. For these newer pellets to make any sense they should be listed in a measurement that equates to the same product in its original form (powder). If I wasn't in the habit of shooting over my Oehler, I would never have known that when I switched from 100gr 777 powder to 100gr 777 pellets that I lost a whopping 200 ft/sec in MV. To me, that is ridiculous. 100gr of 777, in any form, should produce roughly the same velocity.

Not everyone shoots over a chronograph and not everyone reads these forums. Many ML shooters are working in the dark and making a lot of assumptions. Assumptions can often be incorrect.

Quote
Please do not think weight.  It is volume equivalent of blackpowder.  A 50 grain Pyrodex pellet equivalent of black powder weighs 37.3 grains by my scale.

I don't think a single person on this thread is "thinking weight". It seems that everyone knows what a BP equivalent measurement means. Including me, I've been shooting BP, Pyrodex and 777 for over 30 years. (as the powders became available, obviously) If 100gr of 777 is measured by its volume equivalent of BP & 2-50gr 777 pellets are measured by their volume equivalent of BP; could you explain why they don't shoot to the same velocity. Keep in mind that I an not even mentioning the actual weight of the 777 in any form.