20 ga Bull barrel

[hunter63]

Just mounted up a scope on the 20 ga  rifled  bull barrel, this is mounted on a Handi Rifle frame.
Any thoughts on loads?

Picked up some Remington standard slugs and a box of Super X Sabots.
Gonna give it a try

[Critter]

Winchester Partition Golds

[PHATINJUN]

I use Hasting Lasers in mine both the 2 3/4 and the 3" with great accuracy I also think the Lightfields would work very well. Kurt

[d_hiker]

I took my 20 ga USH out on Saturday for the first time to sight it in.  I was pleasantly surprised.  I'll report later when I have my notes.  But Remington BuckHammers did the best, 3 shots touching at 50 yards and about 2" group at 100 yds.  Sighted in at 2" high at 50 yards and was hitting about 1" low at 100 yds.  Thanks for the barrel burntmuch, it is a very nice shooter.  The Lightfield Hybrid slugs were very close behind the BuckHammers at 50 yards.  I only had 1 box and didn't get a chance to shot them at 100 yds.  Actually everything shot within 3" at 50 yds except the Brennke KO, they were closer to 10" to 12".  I did have one box of the Brennke Rotweil 2 3/4" and they shot about 1 1/2" at 50 yds, and a box of 3" Brennke Rotweil shot about 4" at 50 yds.  I used the cheap Remington 15 to the box Sluggers to sight in the scope.  They shot less than 2" at 50 yds as did the cheap Winchester 15 to the box slugs.  But when I shot 4 of the cheap Winchester slugs at 100 yds I had a nice looking rectangle about 5" high by 9"to 10" wide.  I think I tried another couple of boxes of shells but don't remember what they were right now.  I think if I was shooting at 60 yds or less I could use anything, beyond that I'll stick with the BuckHammers.

[eye shot]

How did the Win. Super sabots do?

[hunter63]

Thanks for the info guys.
Gonna be trying it out this week end, so will let you know.

[d_hiker]

How did the Win. Super sabots do?

I didn't have any of the Winchester sabots, only the cheap foster slugs.  Last night I didn't get a chance to look for the boxes from the range the other day.  I would shoot a box and then write a note to myself on the box flap.

[forest2]

I got the rifled bore 20 from the shop (scope rail) for my son this past summer. I dumped about $200 trying different factory loads to find a good group for his gun. Now keep in mind ya cain't shoot a rifled slug through a rifled bore. So the only option is sabot slugs. I have not found a source for 45 cal/20ga sabot cups for hand loading.!
 We shot 2 3/4 and 3"Winchester, Hornandy 3" and a few different Remington loads.
 Long story short, in that little heavy Nef barrel, I found the slow speed 1500 fps Remington round to be a much tighter group than the faster 1900fps available for the rifled bore. We get 2 1/2" at 100 off bench vrs. 5-6" with the others. Anyone else have any current experience or info about these types of rounds sure wood be helpfull.

 P.S. took me 6 months to buy 200$ worth of shells! Don't wanna do that anymore!

[ftw]

My 20 ga USH likes the Hornady SSTs. I have a hunting buddy that bought a 12 Ga rifled cantilever barrel for his Remington 870. On my recommendation he bought about $80 worth of the SSts for his 870. he got 11" groups at 75 yards shooting from a bench and he is a pretty good shot.

He spent probably another $80 trying several different sabots with some better luck but his groups were still 4 or five inches. He asked me about shooting a rifled slug in his rifled barrel and I told him he could but it would lead up some and he would need to clean it out really well. He tried some bulk packs of I believe Winchester rifled slugs and they shot better than anything he tried. He has a good tight group at 50 and about three inches at 100. He is pleased and will try it on an out of state deer hunt in a slug only area.

The fact that the Remington rifled barrels have the slowest twist rate might have something to do with the situation.

[MSP Ret]

   "Now keep in mind ya cain't shoot a rifled slug through a rifled bore."

Now when did this become fact? I am happy I have not heard of it because I do it occasionally with
pretty decent results. What I will not do though is spend $15 to $18 for a box on 5 sabotted slugs!!!
....<><....

[forest2]

     I am happy I have not heard of it because I do it occasionally with pretty decent results.

 O.K. you can shoot rifled slugs through a rifled bore, you can shoot buck-shot and plain shot shells through a rifled bore if you,ve a mind too Heck , when I was a kid we'd open the end of a birdshot shell an poured in melted wax, got pretty decent results from that too:).

 I guess I'll stick with the sabot slugs, what it was made for. I was speaking of the NEF 20ga rifled barrel. I tried the Hornady, Winschester and Remington's all 260grn, all 1800-1900 fps off bench at 100, best pattern was about 6" with the winchester. I found some 5/8 oz. Remington sabots rated at 1500 fps, WOW, just what I was looking for! 2" groups! 3 touching. I'm guessing the short barrel just can't stabilize the faster rounds. Sadley they dropped off about 8" at 150, but still kept a fairly tight group of about 5"s. We tried a few of the faster @ 150, but didn't really have enough shot's too make a judment call. the 4X scope covers alot of x on a redfield target @150 and we where tired.

 Another sad thing is, those guy's have us by the short hairs currently,,can't find the sabot cups to re-load 45 cal bullets on the market yet.

[MSP Ret]

My main complaint about the sabots is the price. It will be a good day when the components are available, perhaps then my Tracker II will get more use. The other complaint is that I prefer the full diameter (usually Brennke or Dixie) slug from a Shotgun and cannot understand why one would choose to shoot .45 caliber projectile from a shotgun when the real deal is available, and cheaper. I would still like to see the components available, I for one would buy some to try. If I wanted to shoot a .45, .50, .54. or .56 caliber projectile I would shoot one of my ML's....<><.... 

[hunter63]

   "Now keep in mind ya cain't shoot a rifled slug through a rifled bore."

Now when did this become fact? I am happy I have not heard of it because I do it occasionally with
pretty decent results.
....<><....

Well, I guess I haven't heard of this either, so I did my sight-in with rifled slugs.
I does say on the box "For smooth bore guns" though.

Any way, the Federal "Power Shock" 2-3/4,  3/4 oz was giving me a 2-1/2" (groups of 3) in the bull @ 50 yds and 75 yds, so that's what I'm going with at this time.
Did lead up in the first 3-4", so I'll be scrubbing for a while.

[MSP Ret]

Sounds like meat on the pole to me, good shooting at 50 and 75 yards, plenty good enough for deer hunting in the Northeast....<><....

[quickdtoo]

Here's what Chuck Hawks has to say about shotgun slugs....FWIW.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm

Shotgun Slugs

By Chuck Hawks



The first shotgun "slugs" were probably round, lead "pumpkin balls." These were common projectiles for muskets and shotguns--any sort of smooth bore long arm--for a long time. Unfortunately, the accuracy of a lead ball fired from a smooth bore barrel is pretty sad. Hitting the target is problematical and precise bullet placement is nearly impossible except at very close range. Also, a lead ball has a very poor sectional density (SD), and consequently poor penetration. There had to be a better way.

The answer, of course, was the rifled barrel. Imparting spin to a projectile to stabilize its flight was a quantum improvement in accuracy. Rifled barrels also made possible the conical bullet, and later the familiar spitzer (pointed) bullets used by most hunters today.

But demand remained for some sort of solid projectile that could be fired from a smoothbore gun and used on medium game like deer. Some one-gun families did not own, and could not afford to buy, a rifle. What was needed was an improvement on the lead ball, both in terms of accuracy and penetration.

Foster type rifled slugs

The eventual solution to this problem was the Foster "rifled" slug. This is a short, blunt lead bullet that is solid in front and hollow in the rear, analogous to a badminton bird. And, like a shuttlecock, it is its weight forward balance that allows the Foster slug to fly through the air to its target with reasonable accuracy. Compared to lead balls, this was a big improvement in both accuracy and SD.

Heavy external "rifling" was cast into these Foster type slugs, allegedly to allow the air they flew through to impart a slow spin that would help stabilize the slug. Like most something for nothing schemes, the rifling proved ineffective, but it did provide some space for some compression if the slug had to squeeze through a tight choke. The name "rifled slug" stuck and is still in widespread use today.

Rifled slugs are offered by most of the major ammunition makers in a variety of shotgun gauges, including 12, 16, 20, and .410 bore. They used to be made under bore diameter to allow safe passage through any degree of choke, from full to cylinder. Cylinder bore guns are usually recommended for shooting slugs, but in some cases a full or modified choke barrel will give better accuracy with the undersize slugs.

This may not always hold true these days, however, as Remington advertises that their "Slugger" rifled slugs are made oversize for better sealing against the barrel wall and superior accuracy. Compared to rifle bullets, whose diameter is held to very strict tolerances, Foster type slugs are made to rather haphazard dimensions that vary from one manufacturer to another.

The use of slugs is best confined to single barrel shotguns, either single shot or repeaters. Double guns tend to crossfire with slugs due to the regulation of the barrels.

A smoothbore "slug gun" with rifle sights will usually shoot groups in the 3" (6 MOA) range at 50 yards/meters, making them satisfactory deer hunting weapons at short range. An occasional example will do better, and some do worse. Their effective deer hunting range is limted by their accuracy, but the slug itself is dangerous to other hunters at far greater distances, an important point to keep in mind.

Compared to practically any big game rifle bullet, rifled slugs are not very accurate. They are a short range (100 yard or less) proposition at best. The ballistic coefficient (BC) and sectional density of rifled slugs is pretty pitiful. The only place they score high numbers is in recoil, where low numbers are desired. Shooting groups from a bench rest with a slug gun is not fun, as the recoil is considerable. If possible, always use a rifle in preference to a slug gun for any kind of big game hunting.

Some jurisdictions in the U.S. forbid the use of rifles and mandate the use of shotgun slugs for deer hunting, allegedly for "safety" in crowded hunting areas. I am sure that this is what keeps rifled slugs viable as a sporting proposition. (They are also used in police "riot" guns, of course.)

This is actually kind of funny in an ironic way, as the one thing slugs do really well is penetrate brush. Rifled slugs are probably the most dangerous type of ammunition to use in a wooded area crowded with hunters and other humans, as they plow through visually impenetrable brush, leaves, and small tree limbs with aplomb. A high velocity rifle with a frangible bullet would be far safer in such an environment. I have, for instance, seen .22 varmint bullets fired at very high velocity turn into a puff of blue smoke on a blade of grass!

Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or 87 grains) in .410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other gauges are similar.

The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a short range proposition.

Stick with 12 gauge Foster type slugs for deer hunting as the smaller gauges pack much less punch. The 20 gauge slug develops only 648 ft. lbs. of energy at 100 yards, which given its low SD is not encouraging. I have done some testing with .410 rifled slugs and they are definitely not adequate deer loads. The less said about these small bore rifled slugs the better.

Brenneke, Buckhammer, and Trophy Slug

These resemble Foster type slugs with one important difference: the wad remains attached to the base of the slug. This provides a better BC and stability in flight, a better shuttlecock, if you will. The assembly is heavier than a plain rifled slug due to the weight of the attached wad. The difference in retained energy at 100 yards is considerable.

The original design of this type, as far as I know, is the German Brenneke slug, offered by Rottweil. Brenneke rifled slugs still use felt and fiber wads, and are suitable for use in smooth or rifled shotgun barrels. Rottweil offers several slug loads in 12, 20, and .410. Their 2 3/4" 12 gauge slug weighs 1 1/4 ounce, and their 3" Magnum 20 gauge slug weighs a full 1 ounce.

A MV of 1476 fps and ME of 2538 are claimed for the 12 gauge 2 3/4" Magnum load. More important is the 100 yard retained energy figure of 1170 ft. lbs.

Fiocchi of Italy offers the Aeroslug Trophy Slug, which appears to be a modernized and simplified version of the Brenneke design. It, too, is recommended for both smooth and rifled barrels. The Fiocchi Trophy slug weighs 1 ounce in 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells, and 7/8 ounce in 2 3/4" 20 gauge shells. Ballistics are similar to the Brenneke loads with somewhat less energy due to the lighter slugs.

Perhaps the most creative design of this general sort, with which I am familiar, is the Remington Buckhammer. It is also the most recent innovation. The Buckhammer lead slug itself is a short truncated cone, rather like a lead "Keith" style revolver bullet. Attached to the base of this is a long, plastic "stabilizer" wad. Remington says that the Buckhammer was designed for use in fully rifled barrels, or with rifled choke tubes. The diameter of the lead slug is supposed to be .73", so I do not see why it could not be used in cylinder bore (smooth) shotgun barrels, but I have not tried it. Experiment at your own risk!

12 gauge Buckhammer slugs weigh 1 1/4 ounces in 2 3/4" cases or 1 3/8 ounces in 3" cases. 20 gauge Buckhammer slugs come only in 2 3/4" cases and weigh 1 ounce.

These Remington Buckhammer loads claim the most impressive ballistics of the bunch. The 12 gauge 2 3/4" load has a MV of 1550 fps and ME of 2935 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 1145 fps and 1600 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 1/4 ounce slug should hit 3.6" low at 100 yards, so it is still a short range load. Naturally, they kick like the very devil in a shotgun of average weight.

The 20 gauge Buckhammer load has a MV of 1500 fps and ME of 2236 ft. lbs. The 100 yard figures are 995 fps and 1074 ft. lbs. Zeroed at 50 yards, the 1 ounce slug should hit 4.6" low at 100 yards.

While still inferior to the 12 gauge loads, the Buckhammer and Brenneke slug loads (which claim similar ballistics) at least get the 20 gauge slug gun up off of its knees. If I had to shoot a smoothbore 20 gauge slug gun, these are the loads I would use.

All three manufacturers of these "super" rifled slugs claim exceptional accuracy in fully rifled barrels. Remington, for example, claims 3" to 3 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards (3.5 MOA or better) with their Buckhammer slugs. Such accuracy would be considered unacceptable from a rifle, of course, but it will take deer at 100 yards.

Sabot slugs

These days most of the major shotshell manufacturers also offer sabot slug loads for 12 and 20 gauge shotguns. These are for use only in fully rifled barrels. How a long arm with a fully rifled barrel can be termed a "shotgun," I fail to understand, but that is beside the point. These loads are essentially equivalent to the kind of loads used in modern, high performance muzzleloading rifles.

Since the Remington catalog is still open in front of me, I will use their sabot slugs as representative of the type. Bear in mind that, as with sabot bullets for muzzleloaders, they're plenty of variations available.

Remington offers 12 and 20 gauge Premier sabot loads with both JHP bonded lead core bullets and solid copper hollow point bullets. The former are called "Premier Core-Lokt Ultra," and latter are "Premier Copper Solid."

The 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra sabot bullet is a .50 caliber, 385 grain HP semi-spitzer. The catalog MV is 1900 fps and the 100 yard velocity is 1648 fps. The ME is given as 3086 ft. lbs. and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 2325 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +1.8" at 50 yards, +2.4" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

The 20 gauge sabot bullet weighs 260 grains. It also has a MV of 1900 fps, and its velocity at 100 yards is given as 1615 fps. The ME is 2084 ft. lbs., and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 1506 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +2.0" at 50 yards, +2.7" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

As I wrote at the outset, this are similar to the ballistics obtainable with high performance, .50 caliber, inline muzzleloading rifles. Accuracy is apparently not quite as good as the best muzzleloaders, as Remington claims consistent 2 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards. But that is impressive accuracy from any kind of shotgun--even if it is really a rifle!

Clearly, the use of these sabot bullet loads completely negates the rationale behind the "shotgun only" deer hunts. Not only are these shotguns with rifled barrels technically rifles, they shoot like rifles. In fact, they equal traditional big game rifle cartridges such as the .45-70 and .38-55.

For example, a .45-70 rifle shooting a 400 grain bullet (BC .214) at a MV of 1900 fps has a trajectory that looks like this: +2.1" at 50 yards, +2.8" at 100 yards, +/- 0" at 150 yards, and -7.2" at 200 yards (Speer figures). That is a very similar trajectory to the Remington Core-Lokt Ultra loads described above.

The Hornady .45 caliber, 300 grain XTP-Mag sabot bullet used in their 12 gauge factory load has a BC of .200, which I suspect is not much different than the BC of the Remington sabot bullet. Holding a scope's horizontal crosswire level with a buck's back should put the bullet into the heart/lung area at 200 yards. Some shotgun!

Slug loads for home defense

Questions about slugs for home defense arise fairly frequently in my mail so, briefly, here is my take on the subject. Shotgun slugs are dangerously over penetrative for most home defense scenarios. (You have no right to endanger your neighbors.) I suggest that, inside of a domicile, #4 buckshot is usually a more appropriate defensive shotgun load.

If you are forced to defend a farm, ranch house, or cabin from external attack, a rifle will probably be superior to a shotgun stuffed with slugs. So I do not see much reason to choose shotgun slug loads for personal defense, except in special circumstances.

Police use of rifled slug loads in the riot guns carried in cruisers is one example of a special circumstance. Many police agencies are reluctant to provide both rifles and shotguns for their patrol cars, so they issue rifled slug loads for use in shotguns. This allows the squad car riot gun to serve as a makeshift rifle if required. Once again, the shotgun becomes a "poor man's rifle."

Slug loads may also be appropriate in some marine applications. In addition to birdshot and buckshot loads, I always kept a pack of rifled slugs handy for my "boat gun," a Mossberg 500 Mariner.

Conclusion

I have primarily concentrated on slug loads for hunting, for which purpose I feel that they are most appropriate. Even so, they are a stop gap alternative to a rifle, primarily useful where rifles are banned for political reasons. Shotgun slug loads intended to be fired from smooth bore barrels manage to combine the worst properties of any hunting projectile: marginal accuracy, low velocity, low sectional density, low ballistic coefficient, rainbow trajectory, and heavy recoil. Nearly the worst of all possible worlds! If you can legally hunt with a rifle, you owe it to both yourself and your quarry to do so. If not, but the law allows the use of fully rifled "shotgun" barrels and saboted projectiles, that is what you should use.
 

[quickdtoo]

Here's another interesting article with pics of the different type slugs. Of particular note, their comments on the smoothbore slugs.

Tim

http://www.nrapublications.org/tah/Slugs.asp

Smoothbore Slugs
    The Federal TruBall and Winchester’s new Super-X Power-Point rifled slug are designed for smoothbore shotguns. They shoot fairly accurately through rifled bores but the soft lead will skid on the rifling and fill the grooves within just two or three shots, after which accuracy is severely compromised. Brenneke, Dynamit-Nobel, PMC, Fiocchi, Challenger, Wolf and others also offer full-bore designs with attached wads that are designed to be shot through smoothbore barrels.

[hunter63]

That was an interesting article, and I have to agree, with the max recoil for your efforts.

I have to tell you about my first encounter with a H&R/ NEF SS.

I purchased a 12 ga slug gun quite a few years ago, came with 24 in barrel, peep sights and a cylinder bore choke(?).

Any way, everyone told me that Brenneke slugs were the best, so I bought some and out to the range I go.

The H&R that I had, (still do) came with just a clip to hold on the fore arm, (they are held on with a screw now), but this one has just a snap clip.
So, I loaded up one of the nasty black and orange shells, took aim, squeezed the trigger........

The recoil kicked it up and fore arm came off in my hand, cutting my eyebrow with my finger nail, .
By instinct, I pushed the break button, so the barrel rolled off the action, and fell to the ground.

There I stood, action in one hand, fore arm in the other, barrel on the ground, with smoke coming out of both ends, and blood running down my face.

I thought it had blown up!, but I had drilled the bull @ 25 yds.
I thought WOW!

Like I said still have that gun, but have had the clip fore arm fixed.

[forest2]

Good info Quick, TY.