Author Topic: Antler Point Restrictions (Read 2388 times)

alpha wolf · « **on:** October 22, 2007, 06:41:51 AM »

This is to be the last year for the experimental point restrictions in select counties in MO. They are talking about maybe going state wide with it or not doing it at all. I for one hunt for the meat and not the horns. Just wondering what other Missouri hunters think should be done.

BobT · « **Reply #1 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:13:06 AM »

I think point restrictions are a misguided attempt at managing for bigger bucks that will eventually result in a degradation of the entire buck population antler wise. Not allowing hunters to take a mature 6 point buck while allowing them to shoot 2 1/2 year old 8 and 10 pointers will result in mature 6 point bucks doing the breeding thus passing on the 6 point genes. I think personally that any deer taken on a fair chase hunt is a fine trophy but I hate to think that a young hunter trying for there first deer would have to let a buck walk because he didn't have enough points! If they want to manage for bigger bucks then they need to educate hunters about taking mature animals, it's not about how many points they have.

JMHO

Bob

alpha wolf · « **Reply #2 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:21:18 AM »

thanks, that pretty much how i fell about it and i also just wanted to mention that i'm not trying to start an argument and that i respect every ones opinion

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:04:35 AM »

I'm from Bama not MO but I totally agree with what was said about why antler point restrictions are a bad management tool. This year for the first time ever in Bama we've gone to it also. I think it was a result of pressure from a vocal minority who thinks of themselves as trophy hunters and who incorrectly think this will put a trophy buck behind every tree.

For as long as I can remember we could shoot a buck a day all season long with no restrictions on what buck was taken. Finally they began allowing the taking of does with gun and giving folks who really want to manage for quality the ability to do so. But now we have a three buck per season limit and the third MUST have four points on one side, the first two have no restrictions. We've never had any sort of tagging or record keeping requirement but this year have to fill out a record on the license each time we take a buck.

I am of the same opinion as BobT that it will be the ruin of the great hunting we've enjoyed here in Bama for so long.

dukkillr · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2007, 10:13:25 AM »

I have the opportunity to rifle and bowhunt on quality, exclusive, private land in both Kansas and Missouri. While there is no question that topography and habitat make huge difference, the hunting culture of the two states also produces a major impact.

Is KS we can kill one buck a year, regardless of weapon or season, and numerous does. This encourages hunters to hold out for mature bucks rather than killing 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 y/o bucks. In addition our KS "buck" tag is actually an "any deer" tag to further remove pressure on meat hunters to shoot a buck. Less pressure on bucks means more mature bucks.

On the Missouri side you can, without special limited draw tags, kill 4 bucks, 2 with a bow, one rifle, and one muzzle-loader. Add that the MO rifle season is during the traditional rut, and you find that very few young bucks grow to be large. Why so many hunters in MO continue to kill young bucks is beyond me, but I've always suspected it's something of a chicken and egg problem. Hunters see fewer nice-ish 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 yo bucks so they get excited and smoke these developing bucks. However sometimes a 3 1/2 yo 8 pt is a true trophy in their area. Of course the reason it's a trophy is because too many hunters are killing those younger bucks and most MO hunters will never lay eyes on the old mature heavy bucks we kill in Kansas.

I don't see antler restrictions as a cure-all, but I don't know what else to suggest. In my own perfect world I'd just institute a policy where hunters who killed young bucks instead of does gets hit on the head with a club. Common sense would then replace a legislative attempt to impose the same.

As to the genetics, I can count on one hand the number of old, mature, healthy bucks I've seen that don't have 4 pts on one side, and studies have shown that selective harvesting of sub-optimal bucks does little anyway (There was a study in Bowhunting, I believe, 3 months ago). I suspect the genetics argument is being invoked only because some are looking for any reason to bash the 4pt rule.

alpha wolf · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2007, 10:50:06 AM »

The MDC imposed the antler point restrictions primarily to increase the doe harvest to better manage the deer population. I prefer younger deer meat because it is more tender and it does not matter to me what kind of deer it is. It does not matter how long you boil the horns you still can't eat them. Because of my work schedule I only get about a day and a half to hunt. I hunt public land because I do not own or lease any land due to the fact that I can't afford it. Therefor it's strictly a first come first served bassis for me. That's why I don't think they should implement the program state wide. It is unfair for the regular hunter who is out to hunt for the joy of hunting such a wonderful for the MDC to limit which one they can take. Just killing one makes them a trophey not how big of a rack they have.

dukkillr · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2007, 11:05:09 AM »

I simply disagree. With a reasonable amount of self-restraint everyone can have what they want. The meat hunters can kill does, and the trophy hunters will have larger bucks to hunt. The only people who lose are those meat hunters who pass a small buck and see no does. Maybe this happens some, but the population statistics would seem to indicate that most hunters who spend some time in the field, would be more likely to see a doe than a young or old buck. If you don't get a deer this year and you want one, ask around... Most hunters I know are dying to give them away. I've donated deer to the local FHFH chapter each of the last few years. Send me a PM and maybe we could meet somewhere even, or I could give you the number of my good friend who's a MDC Game Warden. He might be able to put you onto a hunter who wants to get rid of a deer.

rocko · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:55:27 PM »

Quote from: dukkillr on October 22, 2007, 11:05:09 AM

I simply disagree. With a reasonable amount of self-restraint everyone can have what they want. The meat hunters can kill does, and the trophy hunters will have larger bucks to hunt. The only people who lose are those meat hunters who pass a small buck and see no does. Maybe this happens some, but the population statistics would seem to indicate that most hunters who spend some time in the field, would be more likely to see a doe than a young or old buck. If you don't get a deer this year and you want one, ask around... Most hunters I know are dying to give them away. I've donated deer to the local FHFH chapter each of the last few years. Send me a PM and maybe we could meet somewhere even, or I could give you the number of my good friend who's a MDC Game Warden. He might be able to put you onto a hunter who wants to get rid of a deer.

Dude, not to be rude, but your post is ridiculous. You stated above that you hunt some excellent private land. How do you feel you have the right to try and force your management ideas on us who dont ?? You dont have a clue what the hunting is like down here. And i totally respect your right to have an opinion. But people like yourself and the MDC are trying to impose your trophy dreams on the rest of us. Why should we have to live by your management plans ?? Do it on your land. And the MDC is just dreaming of out of state money . The MDC was started to preserve the rescource, not to turn Missouri into a trophy state. Why should a person have to pass a small 6 point on lowely populated goverment land just so you can can kill a monster. And i agree with your getting hit on the head with a stick, but i think people like yourself who kill deer and dont eat them should be the ones getting bopped. If you are just hunting for horns and have no desire to consume the meat , your are a poor example of a hunter. Why kill more than you can eat

Thats just silly. And on another point, you cannot kill a buck with a firearm and a muzzleloader. The only way you can kill a deer during muzzleloader is with an unused firearm any deer permit. Do you even hunt Missouri ?? I find it hard to beleive with your incorrect knowledge of our reguations.

Please dont take this as disrespect. This is just a very touchy subject to me . Because if they implement it down here, it is gonna be next to impossible to kill anything with horns.

rocko · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:02:17 PM »

By the way, BobT, spot on. You said exactly what i think about it.

dukkillr · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:20:17 PM »

I don't hunt muzzleloader so if that portion is wrong, I'm sorry. I do bow and rifle hunt, and I'm looking at my tags as I type this. The idea of comparing to difference between KS and MO was to show how much pressure MO puts on mature bucks (or any bucks for that matter).

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't waste meat. I eat some, give away lots, but the people who get the meat need it a lot more than I do.

I will never understand why you care about killing "something with horns" vs. a doe. I don't get it, and I'm not going to get it. See if you shoot does, everyone wins... You get your meat, and the young bucks get to grow up. But if you shoot young bucks, trophy hunters lose. There in lies the idea of the points restriction, keep young bucks alive.

I'm interested to see what the MDC decides to do, and I'll continue to fill out those surveys they send me... Good luck to you, I mean that.

alpha wolf · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:43:24 AM »

The way that I see it is if you want your trophy go hunt a state that is known for its big bucks and stop trying to force your ideas of what hunting is on true hunters

dukkillr · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:21:12 AM »

If you think I'm the only guy who'd like to see more trophy bucks in Missouri you're delusional. If you think guys who aren't setting out to kill a little buck aren't "real hunters" you're ignorant.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm offering my opinion on why I like the MDC point restriction. I didn't make it up, and I don't enforce it. Hell I can't even keep the farmer's kid from shooting spikes. Like I said before, I think it's a cultural thing.

You still haven't answered my question about why shooting "something with horns" is better than a doe? Think about it like this, you're mad because MDC wants to limit your favorite type of deer, young bucks. Well I think *you* (not really you personally, but the mentality you represent) are limiting my ability to take my favorite type of deer, mature bucks. But since you only want the meat, and does have about the same meat as young bucks, I continue to not understand why we can't both win...

Don't take this personally, I'd hate to see this thread locked. This is a debate facing many hunters in many parts of the country right now.

Just out of curiosity, what county do you hunt?

alpha wolf · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:28:57 AM »

I hunt mainly in carter and ripley county and most of the deer I have seen where I hunt are small bucks. I have killed a small eight point, two spikes, and one doe in 15 years

alpha wolf · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:45:59 AM »

I don't think shooting something with horns is better than a doe. It is my opinion that it is the only reason trophy hunters hunt. I personally shoot the first deer that crosses my sights and hope that this thread does not get lockedbecause I think that it is nice to be able to here the other sides point of view. I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. I am not trying to make any one mad just stateing how I fell about it and why.

Ranger J · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:39:52 PM »

Honestly, what has been the results in the states where this type of program has been in operation for a reasonably length of time. I seem to have read in the Pennsylvania thread where this was tried for a time and the general hunter was so unhappy that they got the man in charge of it fired a year or so ago. Has Missouri hired him?

RJ

rocko · « **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2007, 04:49:00 PM »

Let me clear one thing up for my part dukkillr. I am not out to kill little bucks. I am out to kill what i choose. I wont kill anything with a gun that isnt a mature , or as you say ' trophy buck ' . Now with a bow, i shoot whatever i feel like. My point is this, if someone chooses to wait for a mature deer, i support them wholly. But i do not expect them to try and tell me what i can kill. I feel that a person should be able to harvest whatever he sees if he so chooses too. I think it is totally asinine that you would suggest that someone should not shoot an animal they choose to because it may hinder your chances at a trophy in the future. If that is your major concern i have one suggestion, work harder, and buy yourself a large chunk of land to micro manage to fulfill your trophy dreams. But for me, i will continue to kill what i choose off of the goverment land i have access to.

And i too truly wish you the best of luck in killing your buck of a lifetime. I just cant agree that the rest of us should only be allowed to kill deer that wont hinder trophy hunters chances of killing a hawg. Because trophy hunting is a choice, not a mangement plan.

dukkillr · « **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2007, 05:32:13 PM »

Deer herds are managed by every state differently, and for different reasons, but certainly one of those reasons is trophy potential. The "I should get to kill what I want, when I want" is what led to modern wildlife management. Obviously the MDC is trying to balance the desires of people such as yourself who want freedom, people like alpha dog who wants to shoot young bucks, and people such as myself who will only kill mature bucks, and find a balance. In addition there are non-hunters and insurance companies to deal with as well. Certainly there needs to be some management or there would be no deer at all. So the question is, what should the management be? I offered my opinion on what would improve Missouri's deer herd from my perspective as a hunter. I've been fortunate enough to hunt in some places where the mentality is different, and the quality of the hunting is different. Unfortunately, old habits die hard.

In Colorado my rifle elk tag was good for a bull, 4pts per side or better, or a cow. In alaska a bull moose must be a certain size. The concept isn't exactly crazy, nor is new. It's just new to Missouri.

When the MDC was studing the idea of re-introducing elk in to the Ozarks I told my friend who is an MDC game warden that there is no way the residents of the Ozarks would stand for any of those, "new fangled giant deer things". And all be darned if public outcry didn't kill the idea. To me, the deer management is similar. Since it's always been one way, that must be best right? I lived for 4 years in Springfield, and lets face it, change doesn't come quickly to Southern Missouri. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it drives me crazy.

Trophy hunting is a style of hunting, but it is inextricably entwined with management plans. And I continue to believe that more hunters would be pleased more of the time, with a point restriction (and a generation worth of time to adapt to it).

alpha wolf · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2007, 04:41:37 AM »

dukkillr I never said that I like to kill young bucks I said that I prefer younger deer because it is more tender than the older mature deer. I believe that it is every hunters right to be able to shoot what ever deer they want.

Bowpredator · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2007, 08:26:15 AM »

I hate the antler restrictions. Trophy deer management should be a personal choice, not mandated IMO. I find it absurd that they tried to pass it off as QDM and that they were trying to encourage the taking of more does with it. If that is the case, why then is Pulaski, Maries, Osage, Gasconade, and Franklin counties part of the antler restriction trial and yet they limit the number of antlerless tags you can get in those counties? That is flat out contradicting saying they want more does taken in those counties and then telling you that you can only have 1 antlerless tag. It would be ludicrous to go statewide with it especially in other counties where the number of antlerless tags are limted or even non existent.

rocko · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2007, 03:49:31 PM »

I am gonna give up on this topic for now. I will be watching it close though. Everyone please keep this as polite as possible. This is one of those topics that will cause disagreement. Trophy hunters feel that the deer heard is here to produce them trophies, and the average hunter feels it is for tradition and a means to fill the freezer . I think the trophy stigma is one of the main reasons for the decline in hunters. We have gotten away from our roots of sharing the experience, and become consumed with safeguarding our honey holes. Its time to realize one thing fellas, your are not the majority , yet. And, growing larger bucks in no way helps the overall health of the heard, it increases out of state revenue for the MDC . And if you cannot see that your posts stink of pure greed i am sorry dukkillr . And as i stated before, i am somewhat of a trophy hunter myself, but i have no delusions that others should have to pass legal deer to give me a better chance at a future trophy.

You boys have fun with this topic, just keep it within the realm of the rules.

thanks
Chad

troy5775 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 28, 2007, 02:40:25 PM »

From what I am seeing here, the people for point restrictions hunt private land and get to pick and choose their deer. The ones of us that have to hunt public land are happy with the first deer that we see because it could be the only one we see and just don't care about the points it has. If you want to manage your private hunting ground for trophies and give away the meat and call it hunting good for you, but leave those of us that hunt for meat on crowded public land alone. If you are not hunting the government land why do you care?

bajabill · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2008, 04:47:30 AM »

Quote from: Bowpredator on October 26, 2007, 08:26:15 AM

If that is the case, why then is Pulaski, Maries, Osage, Gasconade, and Franklin counties part of the antler restriction trial and yet they limit the number of antlerless tags you can get in those counties?

Im in one of those counties, if you are also, then we were a test program within the entire antler restriction test. They wanted to put the program in an area that had moderate deer density, along with the high deer density areas of the northern regions. I asked the conservation dept this exact question when this whole thing started. I may have the email somewhere.

dukkillr · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2008, 06:34:14 AM »

I had a lengthy discussion with an MO game warden about this topic after the Missouri Rifle season. His territory is south central, in the Ozarks. He said most hunters he spoke with supported the measure. They respected the idea of allowing bucks to mature. He said that they ones who didn't support it, tended to be rabid about it. That pretty well fits with my experience.

rocko · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2008, 11:37:27 AM »

Quote from: dukkillr on January 09, 2008, 06:34:14 AM

I had a lengthy discussion with an MO game warden about this topic after the Missouri Rifle season. His territory is south central, in the Ozarks. He said most hunters he spoke with supported the measure. They respected the idea of allowing bucks to mature. He said that they ones who didn't support it, tended to be rabid about it. That pretty well fits with my experience.

Rabid

You mean passionate. Because we are fed up with you private land horn hunters trying to impose your dreams on us...Just cracks me up when someone who is already in a AR county wants it to go state wide. If you dont hunt every county in the state how does it concern you

Statewide measures of any kind are not the answer. that is the main problem i have with this whole deal, The deer heard is not evenly dispersed.. And i think your comment that most are for it, and the rest are rabid is rediculous.. Almost as silly as you more or less calling me an ignorant small buck killer.. Dude you kill more deer than you can eat.. In my opinion that makes you the goofy one.. Anyone that kills deer just for horns, isnt a hunter-they just have low self esteem and need horns to boost there ego...

Of course this is just my opinion... Take it as you like..

rocko · « **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2008, 11:43:55 AM »

What is really funny is now on all the MDC videos they are calling the AR'S a tool to grow bigger bucks.. When all us little buck killers where saying that , the MDC said it was a tool to increase the doe harvest.... Typical bait and switch...

single action · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2008, 07:43:42 PM »

I am not a trophy hunter. I have no Idea why anyone would be. If large antlers are your only way of obtaining satisfaction, I feel sorry for you because you are missing out on much of what makes hunting enjoyable and rewarding. Because of my job, I might get to hunt maybe 3 days a year, rarely are these days together in one stretch. I never get to hunt opening weekend ( when about 85% of all deer are killed statewide ) and I only have access to fairly heavily hunted private land. I shoot the first deer (usually the only) I see.
Am I to reduce my chances of getting a deer even more by antler restrictions?
The ONLY deer I saw during season this year I shot thinking it was a doe, it was only 50 yards away broadside when I shot it. Well it was a spike. its antlers ( if you can call them that lol) were only 5 inches long , and were covered by its ears. I didnt know it was a buck until I walked to it. With your 4 point rule, I would now be a criminal, my family would not have been able to enjoy fresh venison, and after my conviction for shooting a "illegal deer" I would be unable to hunt for several years. All this so someone can brag "mine is bigger than yours" to his buddies?
Killl big bucks if you wish, more power to you and I wish you all the luck in the world. Just dont take away my ability to have a "quality" hunt, in my home state, in the limited time and area I am able to do so.

rocko · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2008, 02:22:59 PM »

Quote from: single action on January 28, 2008, 07:43:42 PM

I am not a trophy hunter. I have no Idea why anyone would be. If large antlers are your only way of obtaining satisfaction, I feel sorry for you because you are missing out on much of what makes hunting enjoyable and rewarding. Because of my job, I might get to hunt maybe 3 days a year, rarely are these days together in one stretch. I never get to hunt opening weekend ( when about 85% of all deer are killed statewide ) and I only have access to fairly heavily hunted private land. I shoot the first deer (usually the only) I see.
Am I to reduce my chances of getting a deer even more by antler restrictions?
The ONLY deer I saw during season this year I shot thinking it was a doe, it was only 50 yards away broadside when I shot it. Well it was a spike. its antlers ( if you can call them that lol) were only 5 inches long , and were covered by its ears. I didnt know it was a buck until I walked to it. With your 4 point rule, I would now be a criminal, my family would not have been able to enjoy fresh venison, and after my conviction for shooting a "illegal deer" I would be unable to hunt for several years. All this so someone can brag "mine is bigger than yours" to his buddies?
Killl big bucks if you wish, more power to you and I wish you all the luck in the world. Just dont take away my ability to have a "quality" hunt, in my home state, in the limited time and area I am able to do so.

Good post bud..

Ranger J · « **Reply #27 on:** January 29, 2008, 05:51:51 PM »

I get nervous when people start talking about mature bucks and shooters and such. I get the feeling that they have watched too many of the OC programs where the 'hunter' is setting in the cabin on stilts and looking out over the plot where you can even see the feeders and there are about twenty or so good size bucks walking around and there is a 'handler' in the blind with him telling him which one of these deer he can shoot. I hunt some private land but mostly public land and probably will never be able to afford to shoot one of these farm raised deer or if I could would want to and I darn sure don't want someone looking over my shoulder telling me which deer I can or can not shoot. I hunt mainly Crawford, Iron and Wayne counties in the Ozarks and if there are the large cadre of hunters supporting the idea of AR in these counties I sure haven't seen them.

RJ